flyercanuck Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 @Polaris922 Ok, I took your "Carcillo I don''t get" as meaning about being dirty, when you meant don't get the signing. I'm not defending Flyers, just pointing out that Malkin can and does play dirty. You can disagree, but if he didn't play for your team you likely wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 In my opinion Malkin is not [dirty]...Does he get edgy in some games? Yes Split hairs much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamflyers Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Bingo. If you can't beat them, join them. I hate the Downies and Carcillos of the world - but if that is what it takes to "protect" our stars? So be it.Looks like you and Polaris are missing the days when all you had to do was sneeze on Crosby and Malkin and the arm went up! Uncle Gary helped them get their cup, now they have to earn any future ones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Looks like you and Polaris are missing the days when all you had to do was sneeze on Crosby and Malkin and the arm went up! Uncle Gary helped them get their cup, now they have to earn any future ones! They earned it just fine. Maybe you enjoy watching the game slip back into the Devils trap and obstruction days, but it sickens me. I'd rather lose a skilled game than win that kind of garbage.@Podein25Split hairs? I consider Giroux edgy... Malkin and Crosby edgy... Those kinds of players who play the game but will stick up for themselves by returning slashes or face washes, elbows or punches. Edgy. Do they sometimes go too far? Sure! But so do most players from time to time. Emotional contact sport. I don't consider the occasional retaliatory slash or elbow dirty unless its a pure blind side blast and hurts someone. Hell I didn't even consider Giroux's shoulder to chin hit on Zubrus a dirty play. Reckless? Sure. Just like Malkin can be at times, though he's never hurt anyone.Dirty is Carcillo. Cheap shots, running players from behind on reckless hits, intentionally going out for blood regardless of the big picture. That's dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Dirty is Carcillo. Cheap shots, running players from behind on reckless hits, intentionally going out for blood regardless of the big picture. That's dirty. I think what's missing from your definition of "dirty" is the word "repeatedly." To give you a sense of what I mean, go to YouTube and search: " Malkin AND elbow" I'll save you the work. The first 5 hits are 5 separate elbowing incidents on 5 different players (two of whom are Flyers), then there's a "Malkin's Hissy Fit" clip, which I encourage you to check out. But it may be quicker for to just skip ahead to the "Malkin Scumbag" hit which has 19 videos of elbows etc. = dirty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 I think what's missing from your definition of "dirty" is the word "repeatedly." To give you a sense of what I mean, go to YouTube and search: " Malkin AND elbow" I'll save you the work. The first 5 hits are 5 separate elbowing incidents on 5 different players (two of whom are Flyers), then there's a "Malkin's Hissy Fit" clip, which I encourage you to check out. But it may be quicker for to just skip ahead to the "Malkin Scumbag" hit which has 19 videos of elbows etc. = dirty Okay so let me get this straight... Giroux gives Malkin a two hander across the shins in the first clip, then comes back and throws an elbow up at him, and Malkin is the dirty player for returning the favor (and missing)? Two minutes for missing with the elbow Malkin sit down for NOT hitting Giroux as well as he hit you. Yes Malkin hit Voracek with his elbow on the side of the had in clip two. Voracek ducks low coming in to the contact and Malkin doesn't keep his elbow low. Dirty? Hardly.... stupid? Yes. Intent to injure? No way. Clip three... so Malkin's elbow makes initial contact with Franzen's shoulder... then rides up and clips his jaw. Oh my God call the police! You're a Flyers fan and you call that a dirty hit? Surely you jest. PLayers use elbows in body checks more than they should, absolutely, and this is a shining example of why it's a penalty. He rides up Franzen... stupid? yes. Reckless? Yes. Dirty? Uhh... no more dirty than Giroux's hitting Zubrus. No real intent just reckless. Clip four.. the Grossman hit. Shoulder to shoulder hit till Grossman turns right and puts his chin where his shoulder was. The hit on Wayne Simmonds is a shoulder lead into a body check. His elbow is tucked tight against his side. Simmonds tried to avoid the check and takes Malkin's shoulder in the chin. And the Malkin Scumbag wasn't even a slew foot... players jockey for position going into the boards all the time. They pry at each other with their sticks all the time. They hook and lean, leverage and push all the time. If it were a real slew foot, Mara wouldn't have landed on his backside, he'd have landed on his back risking head contact with the ice. I don't know where your counting was taught, but where I come from, the same video being played over and over again is one incident. Seriously... if that's all you have in 518 games played ... I'd say the Voracek hit is definitely bad, followed by maybe the Franzen one for bringing his elbow up... but the others? Garbage. But even if you take all five that's hardly a dirty player. Giroux hit Bergeron shoulder to chin and Flyers fans raved at what a great hit it was. But Malkin does it to Simmonds and Grossman and it's dirty. How does Stepan feel about Giroux's elbow? How about when he elbows Malkin in the follow through (ala Malkin on Franzen) And there's the obvious Giroux on Zubrus... Maybe Giroux doesn't like Roy so much... And you want to talk about acting... ala Carcillo style.... I think the point I'm trying to make is yes... star players in hockey that play with an edge to their game will elbow, board, slash and crosscheck their way through their careers to some degree. But if you're going to hold those rare instances against them as "dirty" then almost every damn player in the league is "dirty". I don't care who you look at, you're more than likely going to be able to find somebody who remembers an incident where they rode the elbows up too high or hit just a little from behind. It's a fast paced emotional contact sport. If you're going to sit here and say Malkin is dirty with a straight face, then your follow up sentence better be "but so is Giroux". And you will find just as many videos of Crosby doing it too. Corey Perry slashing, Stamkos spitting, even St. Louis with a slewfoot... none of them with huge libraries of such events, but all of them with some shining examples, and some others left to interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 You know it's right before camp when a Carcillo thread, who has basically 0% chance of making the Pens goes to the 4th page....lol, hockey cannot start soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 @Polaris922 Highlights can make a player look like a superstar even if he isn't. I could post ONE Zac Rinaldo goal that makes him look like a scorer. But watch him play a game, a season and take a look at his stats and say Crosbys and it's not hard to figure out who the star is. The same can be done for most players being dirty. The difference is the amount of times you do it. Randy Jones threw one memorable hit his entire career. Unfortunately it hurt Bergeron. We could make an epic movie of Matt Cooke doing crap like that. It's when you have a habit of doing it that you're labelled. Say the name Matt Cooke and the first thing to pop in most peoples heads is "dirty". He earned that over his entire career. Claude Giroux has 181 pims in his entire career. That's 2 seasons worth for Evgeni Malkin. One of them is apparently being dirty a lot more than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 @flyercanuck umm....post #58 reminds me of this..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 @Polaris922Highlights can make a player look like a superstar even if he isn't. I could post ONE Zac Rinaldo goal that makes him look like a scorer. But watch him play a game, a season and take a look at his stats and say Crosbys and it's not hard to figure out who the star is.The same can be done for most players being dirty. The difference is the amount of times you do it. Randy Jones threw one memorable hit his entire career. Unfortunately it hurt Bergeron. We could make an epic movie of Matt Cooke doing crap like that. It's when you have a habit of doing it that you're labelled. Say the name Matt Cooke and the first thing to pop in most peoples heads is "dirty". He earned that over his entire career.Claude Giroux has 181 pims in his entire career. That's 2 seasons worth for Evgeni Malkin. One of them is apparently being dirty a lot more than the other.You're reaching so far on this one you may need a ladder. So dirty is based on penalties now? Lazy players get a lot of penalty minutes. Malkin is lazy, and his defense is as much about holding and hooking as anything. But wait... If he were a Flyer he'd have twice as many minutes.... Color of the jersey and all... Giroux has a suspension, Malkin does not. By your thinking that makes Giroux dirtier despite the PIM difference. Seriously... I don't consider either issue, PIM or one suspension relevant. Come on... You don't have to like the guy. In fact I want you to despise him. But dirty? I just showed you some of Guroux's shining moments that are right there with Malkin's. the only difference is the team jersey. Neither of them is dirty. Neither a saint. That's hockey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 @flyercanuck umm....post #58 reminds me of this.....Sorry Jammer my phone doesn't show post numbers so I can't hope to follow along. Lol. Which post?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 @Polaris922 Highlights can make a player look like a superstar even if he isn't. I could post ONE Zac Rinaldo goal that makes him look like a scorer. But watch him play a game, a season and take a look at his stats and say Crosbys and it's not hard to figure out who the star is. The same can be done for most players being dirty. The difference is the amount of times you do it. Randy Jones threw one memorable hit his entire career. Unfortunately it hurt Bergeron. We could make an epic movie of Matt Cooke doing crap like that. It's when you have a habit of doing it that you're labelled. Say the name Matt Cooke and the first thing to pop in most peoples heads is "dirty". He earned that over his entire career. Claude Giroux has 181 pims in his entire career. That's 2 seasons worth for Evgeni Malkin. One of them is apparently being dirty a lot more than the other. That post, where fc clearly delivered a knock out blow. The only people who don't think Malkin is dirty are dentist's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 That post, where fc clearly delivered a knock out blow. The only people who don't think Malkin is dirty are dentist's. So PIM decides who is dirty? Get serious! You're seeing orange and black on this... completely. Some Flyers fans just have to have a Pens star to whine about, and since Neal left Malkin is the new target. I just showed you as many clips of Giroux as you can show of Malkin. So I guess I'll agree with you boys then... Malkin and Giroux are dirty. Two piece of shyte players in the likes of Carcillo and Avery. They should be banned from the league. The video evidence is clearly posted above on BOTH players. Good grief.... where did the objectivity go? Somebody shipped it out on the off season... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 @Polaris922 Malkins play decides. Look, nobody is calling Malkin the dirtiest player in the league. He's never even been the dirtiest player on the Pens (since you guys always have someone who's way over the top in that category). But the guy does play dirty when things don't go his way. Sometimes that can be the result of retaliation. other times it's just cause he's losing. He's not the only star player like that...but he's up there when it comes to star + dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 @Polaris922Malkins play decides. Look, nobody is calling Malkin the dirtiest player in the league. He's never even been the dirtiest player on the Pens (since you guys always have someone who's way over the top in that category). But the guy does play dirty when things don't go his way. Sometimes that can be the result of retaliation. other times it's just cause he's losing. He's not the only star player like that...but he's up there when it comes to star + dirty.As is Giroux. The video evidence is posted for your enjoyment. I don't consider either dirty, but if that's your standard then both fit the category. It would be hypocritical to believe otherwise considering the video clips available. I just don't consider any star player with five or six bad decisions in over 500 games dirty. Especially with no history of hurting people or head hunting. I think you guys have made a mountain of a molehill, and as shown that can be done with most star players. In the era of holding crosscheck a and slashes, these guys have to protect themselves. Malkin, Giroux, Perry, Datsyuk... All of them. To label guys with such minor and infrequent incidents "dirty" is ridiculous to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 He doesn't throw cheap shots and stuff any more or less than anyone but your lady byng candidates. Yeah he's not dirty by no means. the cheap elbow swing on a smaller player certainly isn't cheap!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Especially with no history of hurting people or head hunting Naaaaaaaaaaaaah he isn't dirty. everyone is doing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Naaaaaaaaaaaaah he isn't dirty. everyone is doing it yes we've been over those videos. The Giroux thing elbow I agree was an attempt at a cheap shot. The Grossman thing was a clean shoulder to shoulder lined up and Grossman turns into it so I'll disagree there. But as stated before... those are the videos already posted in this debate, and I posted just as many of Giroux doing things right ni the same mold. So I have no problem with people saying Malkin is dirty based upon five or six incidents where he never hurt anybody in over 500 games. But you better be okay with saying the same thing about Giroux who has a similar number of incidents in over 400 games. Giroux also hurt someone and was suspended for it. I see them as very similar players who play with a very similar edge. Russians are ALWAYs lazier I know, but as far as cheap shots and questionable conduct, how can one say Malkin is and then defend Giroux? (See above videos for his resume). I've argued that neither are dirty, just emotional and stick up for themselves when they're pushed. They both cross the line but infrequently enough that I don't consider them dirty. Just feel its HUGELY hypocritical to say Malkin is while ignoring Giroux's infractions which are roughly the same count and of similar conduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 @Polaris922 Giroux's indiscretions are more forgivable because he can back up whatever he does with his own fists. He's not a feared pugilist by any means, but at least he can back up his cheap shots. It's WAY worse when you cheap shot but don't fight to back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 and I posted just as many of Giroux doing things right ni the same mold. Really i haven't seen any of those like Malkin tried on him, not saying they aren't out there but i'd love to see one before i'm convinced. Malkin i've seen many of. And the worst part for him is he is usually bigger than everyone else on the ice so to me it looks even more of a pusscee move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 @Polaris922 Giroux's indiscretions are more forgivable because he can back up whatever he does with his own fists. He's not a feared pugilist by any means, but at least he can back up his cheap shots. It's WAY worse when you cheap shot but don't fight to back it up. I don't think of Giroux as any more of a fighter than Malkin. Neither is out there to throw punches, and both throw elbows or shoulders, slash and crosscheck in retaliation. Giroux has six fights in his career... Malkin has five. Big difference? No. And let's face it, these guys aren't really fighting half of those.. they're wrestling matches. And who could argue Malkin isn't a premier bruiser in this video?? Really i haven't seen any of those like Malkin tried on him, not saying they aren't out there but i'd love to see one before i'm convinced. Malkin i've seen many of. And the worst part for him is he is usually bigger than everyone else on the ice so to me it looks even more of a pusscee move. The videos of Giroux doing similar things are a few posts back... maybe the previous page now. it's nothing spectacular, but it's toe to toe with anything Malkin has ever done. I COULD argue that Giroux's is even worse because his cheap shot on Zubrus injured Zubrus and earned a suspension, Malkin has neither of those on his resume. Simply put, they're very even in the race to infamy. So why paint one with a brush and not the other? Makes no sense to label either player that way. I just think the emotional rivalry hatred taints the argument for a lot of Flyers fans as most of Malkin's transgressions are against your team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 @Polaris922 You can slice it any way you want, but Giroux is much more of a true man than Malkin. Regardless of fight numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 @Polaris922 You can slice it any way you want, but Giroux is much more of a true man than Malkin. Regardless of fight numbers. Guess we'd have to ask the Ottawa Police that question.... Seriously though... that is not an objective review of the facts presented. That is your fan based opinion of your team captain vs a star for a rival franchise. It's not based upon facts, and that's subjective. It humors me that despite plenty of evidence showing them to be of the same designs when it comes to the occasional transgression, the best anybody can really say is "Cuz I say so". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 "Cuz I say so". Sounds good to me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 @Polaris922 Malkin doesn't have a suspension for one reason only....they won't give him one. He's deserved a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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