AJgoal Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Give Crosby Kane now, or before Toews straightened him out? You're not putting Crosby out on the ice up one with one minute to go if you have Toews too. Ditto PK. You'd put them out together needing a goal with one minute or on the PP. Better player is the one you trust in all situations, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Give Crosby Kane now, or before Toews straightened him out? You're not putting Crosby out on the ice up one with one minute to go if you have Toews too. Ditto PK. You'd put them out together needing a goal with one minute or on the PP. Better player is the one you trust in all situations, IMO.If you're down a goal there's no way you bench Crosby to play Toews. Nobody cares that you hate Crosby. But to turn a blind eye to his talent is ridiculous. The better player you trust in all situations? So Lemieux and Gretzky are just "above average" in your book? They weren't out there defending one goal games or killing penalties either...Come on man. Crosby is 11 points ahead of Toews just 13 games in and widening the gap. Are there situations you'd want Toews out there for before Crosby? Sure. But there are situations you'd make sure Crosby were out there too, whether you could get Toews out there as well or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 If you're down a goal there's no way you bench Crosby to play Toews. Nobody cares that you hate Crosby. But to turn a blind eye to his talent is ridiculous. The better player you trust in all situations? So Lemieux and Gretzky are just "above average" in your book? They weren't out there defending one goal games or killing penalties either...Come on man. Crosby is 11 points ahead of Toews just 13 games in and widening the gap. Are there situations you'd want Toews out there for before Crosby? Sure. But there are situations you'd make sure Crosby were out there too, whether you could get Toews out there as well or not.Um...Up one or PK, Toews. Down one, both. That's how I read the post anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The only thing I can point to support the Toews is better argument, which btw i think is not a" total winner"... is playoff performance. Toews elevates his play and leadership, he nearly came unglued when Zetterberg was doing him raw a couple years ago, but he didn't, he figured out what to do to help his team and did it. The Hawks advanced, i think Jonathan gets help from having a guy like Hossa around...but he also disengaged from Zetts and played that matchup to a stalemate. Sidney has not had the same playoff experience. When confronted physically he cannot disengage , he has led his team down the poop hole the last 3 year in the playoffs. I don't know if he'll ever be able to get past this aspect of his personality. He doesn't have the veteran help either , he has had a guy that is just as easy to irritate to infectivity in Malkin. So I can see where protecting a 1 goal lead at the end of the game where i'd want Toews, I also recognize Sid is a good faceoff guy so maybe he's out for the draw anyway... I cannot say that Toews is just as good, he's not, I would still totally want to start a franchise with him, but he isn't as good a player as Sidney, and there is nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 @doom88And I said down one and you had to pick between them you'd go Crosby first. Then Toews if you could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Come on man. Crosby is 11 points ahead of Toews just 13 games in and widening the gap. Are there situations you'd want Toews out there for before Crosby? Sure. But there are situations you'd make sure Crosby were out there too, whether you could get Toews out there as well or not. Over there careers they are both neck in neck in GW goals (both reg and playoffs), while i know they are both set-up men as well as finishers, still that is a compelling stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I cannot say that Toews is just as good, he's not, I would still totally want to start a franchise with him, but he isn't as good a player as Sidney, and there is nothing wrong with that. Why wouldn't you start your franchise with Crosby, if he's the better player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Over there careers they are both neck in neck in GW goals (both reg and playoffs), while i know they are both set-up men as well as finishers, still that is a compelling stat.Crosby 1.4 PPG careerToews 0.90 PPG careerHalf a point per game difference. I would argue that's far more compelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Why wouldn't you start your franchise with Crosby, if he's the better player?If you're looking for someone to get you goals and assists, then Crosby's your man. If you want somebody who wins faceoffs, is a GREAT defensive player and a leader who gets huge goals and is always clutch in the playoffs, then Toews is. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Why wouldn't you start your franchise with Crosby, if he's the better player? I think he's saying you can't go wrong with either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Crosby 1.4 PPG careerToews 0.90 PPG careerHalf a point per game difference. I would argue that's far more compelling. that is per game... I think Van was referencing game winning goals. this argument is a good one but if you simply look at each player alone and take away the leadership part I think Crosby wins as the best player. Crosby is a heck of a defensive player too (not as good as JT) and his entire skill-set is above Toews as well IMO. I hate Crosby w/ a passion but the man is the best player in the world IMO. If you asked me for a Captain to build a Team around it would definitely go to JT. I really dont think Sid is a very good captain but he sure is a great player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 that is per game... I think Van was referencing game winning goals. Thanks MC, and it really is not fair to an extent. What would be more valuable is to see how many primary assists each had in setting up GWG. Then there is the argument of what is more valuable- a game tying goal v. GWG. So, it was certainly subjective on my part. I am with you on the leadership part. Toews in his 8th season, while Crosby his 10th. Crosby is a year older as well. I try to put my Flyer-bias aside (while hard), but at the end of the day, I take toews. I think those additional points that Crosby gets you (while shooting nearly 33% more) is not worth the greater leadership and defensive accountability that Toews brings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I try to put my Flyer-bias aside (while hard), but at the end of the day, I take toews. I think those additional points that Crosby gets you (while shooting nearly 33% more) is not worth the greater leadership and defensive accountability that Toews brings. I think there is a great case to be made for both. If I was looking for a true leader to build around it would be JT all day long. If I look at simply the skill-set of each player (not intangibles) I would most likely take Crosby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Thanks MC, and it really is not fair to an extent. What would be more valuable is to see how many primary assists each had in setting up GWG. Then there is the argument of what is more valuable- a game tying goal v. GWG. So, it was certainly subjective on my part. I am with you on the leadership part. Toews in his 8th season, while Crosby his 10th. Crosby is a year older as well. I try to put my Flyer-bias aside (while hard), but at the end of the day, I take toews. I think those additional points that Crosby gets you (while shooting nearly 33% more) is not worth the greater leadership and defensive accountability that Toews brings. I wonder if you swapped Toews and Crosby if the results would be any different. I'd wager that the Hawks still have two Cups, maybe more with Crosby - and the Pens only one with Toews. In my opinion, too little credit is being given to the teams around these players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 In my opinion, too little credit is being given to the teams around these players. Thats a good point. I was kind of thinking that too, and kind of what directed me to GWG. Didn't Fluery have a great part in the first SC for pits?? Niemi for Chicago?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Thats a good point. I was kind of thinking that too, and kind of what directed me to GWG. Didn't Fluery have a great part in the first SC for pits?? Niemi for Chicago?? Fleury was better in the year they lost, IIRC. Either way, he was excellent those two postseasons. Guerin was important to that team, so was Gill. In Chicago, you've got Hossa, Keith and Seabrook that are all top tier players. Without that defense, Chicago doesn't get the first Cup for sure with Niemi. He was brutal - second only to Leighton, I would say Add guys like Sharp, Hjalmarsson, Bolland, Versteeg, and it's a very strong supporting cast. I wouldn't dispute that Toews is a better leader than Crosby, but was he really that incredible a leader at 21 to bring those guys to the Cup? Or - more likely - was it that there was enough (talented) veteran leadership around him and a plethora of team talent that led to the Hawks winning the Cup? Honestly, if Carter buries that chance and we go on to win the Cup, or if the Hawks lose Game 7 against the Wings in the WC semis a few years ago, no one's talking about Toews' leadership skills in the NHL as the best. They're talking about Mike Richards instead, and Zdeno Chara or Brown/Kopitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Or - more likely - was it that there was enough (talented) veteran leadership around him and a plethora of team talent that led to the Hawks winning the Cup? Good point. Honestly, if Carter buries that chance and we go on to win the Cup, or if the Hawks lose Game 7 against the Wings in the WC semis a few years ago, no one's talking about Toews' leadership skills in the NHL as the best. They're talking about Mike Richards instead, and Zdeno Chara or Brown/Kopitar. Interesting the things that could have been, but aren't. As a sniper, Carter has to bury that. Past is past. Not to rehash, I think he just was stunned at how much net he had, or hungover and a bit gassed. Either or. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Though I love my Pens, there's no arguing Chicago has had a stronger lineup. Toews has had more support than Crosby, especially the past couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 @Polaris922 Thats cause they have a better gm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 @Polaris922Thats cause they have a better gm. Or they didn't have to pay Toews and Kane the big money until now, a couple years after Crosby and Malkin were due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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