Crosby For The Art Ross?

[flyercanuck]

Not sure if he would 'destroy" the 90s, he would be competing with Lemieux or Jagr for the Ross... A 34 year old Jagr had 123 points in 2005. Thats better then Sidney Crosbys best season. OFC, not saying Jagr is a better player then Crosby. that can be debated elsewhere.

 

Jagr put up  123 in 2005? Crosby put up 102...as an 18 year old. When Jagr was 18 he put up 57 points. He didn't pass Crosbys point total as an 18 year old  for SIX seasons...playing WITH Lemieux.

[JagerMeister]

Jagr put up  123 in 2005? Crosby put up 102...as an 18 year old. When Jagr was 18 he put up 57 points. He didn't pass Crosbys point total as an 18 year old  for SIX seasons...playing WITH Lemieux.

Jagr as a 34 year old put up more points then Crosbys best season. And btw, Jagr was on an insanely good team with so much depth, he played on the 3rd or 4th line. So no, he was barely playing with Lemieux.

[Polaris922]

The game has changed. That's all there is to it. Obstruction has returned to screw everything up.

As for Crosby, he's definitely hurt. Guarantee it.

[flyercanuck]

@JagerMeister

 

In 1988 Mike Bullard had 103 points. 

 

In 85 John Ogrodnick had 105

 

In 84 Barry Pederson had 116

 

In 82 Deniis Maruk had 138

 

Which one of them is better than Crosby? (hint - none...and its not even close)

[notfondajane]

@JagerMeister

 

In 1988 Mike Bullard had 103 points. 

 

In 85 John Ogrodnick had 105

 

In 84 Barry Pederson had 116

 

In 82 Deniis Maruk had 138

 

Which one of them is better than Crosby? (hint - none...and its not even close)

l remember Denis when he was with the now defunct Cleveland Barons he had decent number with them. He would give Crosby a run for his money! With all things even

[JagerMeister]

@JagerMeister

 

In 1988 Mike Bullard had 103 points. 

 

In 85 John Ogrodnick had 105

 

In 84 Barry Pederson had 116

 

In 82 Deniis Maruk had 138

 

Which one of them is better than Crosby? (hint - none...and its not even close)

Im specifically talking about the mid and late 90s and early 2000s.

 Lindros would still be one of the most physically dominant players out there, and given that he has much skill for a big guy, he would be one of the best players out there

Selanne was still able to put up 80 points in 73 games as a 40 year old in 2007 and was anaheims best player for a bit during the early to mid 2000s outproducing Perry and Getzlaf, and those 2 are one of the best players today.

Kariya was Selanne's equal so he would have probably been able to do the same if it was not for injuries

Lidstrom is quite obvious, he won 7 norris trophies throughout the early and mid 2000s and won a norris trophy at 40 years old in 2010 beating out shea weber, who is probably a top 3 defenseman in the whole league

Forsberg, same idea with Lindros

Sakic in his last full season had 100 points at the age of 37 in 2006.

Now tell me these players arent better then the majority of the players today...and they would do just as good in the 2000s during their prime, they were still able to be great players far past their prime

[B21]

@JagerMeister

 

In 1988 Mike Bullard had 103 points. 

 

In 85 John Ogrodnick had 105

 

In 84 Barry Pederson had 116

 

In 82 Deniis Maruk had 138

 

Which one of them is better than Crosby? (hint - none...and its not even close)

 

I'll take Ogrodnick...

[flyercanuck]

Selanne had more points than Perry and Getzlaf in the early to mid 2000s? They were both drafted in 2003 and there was a lockout in 04. So they come into the league for their first year at 20 and Selanne is better? I hope so. Selanne didn't make the jump to the NHL til he was 22.

 

I have all the respect in the world for Selanne, and Lidstrom. Sorry, but Weber was a better defenceman in 2011 when Lidstrom won it.

 

The goalie average this year is a .913 save percentage and a 2.55 GAA. In 2006 it was 2.93 and .901 In 84 it was .873 and 3.83. Better goaltending is going to lower scoring numbers. Throw in obstruction. All players are in better shape now than 15 years ago. The game is coached better. Players are bigger and faster and stronger.

 

Are Selanne and Forsberg and Lindros better than the majority of the players today? Absolutely. And Crosby and Malkin  and Getzlaf and Giroux are better than the majority of the players back then.

[flyercanuck]

I'll take Ogrodnick...

 

 

Over Crosby? I don't think so. Not even a ppg player in that era?

[JagerMeister]

Selanne had more points than Perry and Getzlaf in the early to mid 2000s? They were both drafted in 2003 and there was a lockout in 04. So they come into the league for their first year at 20 and Selanne is better? I hope so. Selanne didn't make the jump to the NHL til he was 22.

 

I have all the respect in the world for Selanne, and Lidstrom. Sorry, but Weber was a better defenceman in 2011 when Lidstrom won it.

 

The goalie average this year is a .913 save percentage and a 2.55 GAA. In 2006 it was 2.93 and .901 In 84 it was .873 and 3.83. Better goaltending is going to lower scoring numbers. Throw in obstruction. All players are in better shape now than 15 years ago. The game is coached better. Players are bigger and faster and stronger.

 

Are Selanne and Forsberg and Lindros better than the majority of the players today? Absolutely. And Crosby and Malkin  and Getzlaf and Giroux are better than the majority of the players back then.

Selanne also outproduced a Getzlaf in his prime at the age of 40 in 2010...Selanne would absolutely be a dominant offensive force today. And yes, Weber should have won, but Lidstrom would still be 2nd place

 

The fourth and third liners today are far better than the ones in the 90s i'll give you that.

But the only players you can say are better then the majority of players in the 90s are Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin. 

Do you really think Giroux, Getzlaf Perry etc are better than

Kariya, Fedorov, Bure, Hull, lafontaine, Fleury, Oates, Forsberg 

 

Im just saying, most of the super stars in the 90s would absolutely be able to do as good or maybe even better, as they still were superstars in their late ages in this so called ``most talented era``

 

Also, the players could have better fitness all they want then the players of back then. But that does not mean they are more skilled.

You will barely ever see a hockey player smarter then Gretzky

You wont see alot of players faster then Bure

You will barely see players with the natural talent Lemieux had, and he had **** work ethic

Also, if players are really that much stronger, athletic then the players from other generations, why does mike gartner still have the fastest time? why does Hull, still have the second hardest slapshot of all time?   it clocked at 105 miles per hour and this was with a wooden stick.

[flyercanuck]

There are around 700 players in the NHL.Listing 8 players isn't the majority. 

[JagerMeister]

There are around 700 players in the NHL.Listing 8 players isn't the majority. 

Obviously, the third and fourth lines are far better now, i mean, would tiger woods even be an nhl player? But the superstars would  still be great players today. Not even just the superstars, the first liners as well. Imagine Roy, brodeur and Hasek in their primes with todays goalie equipment.

[B21]

Over Crosby? I don't think so. Not even a ppg player in that era?

 

Kidding.

[JagerMeister]

I just think its simply not true that no one would put up 100 points in todays nhl. Just because Crosby , Ovechkin, Malkin cant do it anymore, no one can lol. Crosby is not as good as he was before, Ovechkin isnt as dynamic, and Malkin is just not consistent

[mojo1917]

Hull, still have the second hardest slapshot of all time?   it clocked at 105 miles per hour and this was with a wooden stick.

 

pretty sure Hull's way down on the list, 

Chara, Weber, Iafrate... all those guys have fastballs better than 105

 

i know we're all just talking here and no one can have the right opinion, comparing players from different eras is difficult no matter the sport.  

the games change , the players get bigger faster stronger. i still feel pretty certain that if we were to take any of today's super stars as they are and drop them in a time machine in the mid 90's they would play like giants... especially Crosby.  

[JagerMeister]

pretty sure Hull's way down on the list, 

Chara, Weber, Iafrate... all those guys have fastballs better than 105

 

i know we're all just talking here and no one can have the right opinion, comparing players from different eras is difficult no matter the sport.  

the games change , the players get bigger faster stronger. i still feel pretty certain that if we were to take any of today's super stars as they are and drop them in a time machine in the mid 90's they would play like giants... especially Crosby.  

Fair enough, but i think if we took some of the superstars in their primes and put them in todays game, some of them would be in the crosby, ovechkin, malkin tiers as the best players in the league. Lindros would still be a physical beast, and Jagr would probably give Crosby a run for his money. Cant imagine what a lemieux would do in todays league though, he didnt have good work ethic but even after he came back from hodgkins he still put up 166 points...

[B21]

I'm calling it now.  There will be a tie.

[notfondajane]

I'm calling it now.  There will be a tie.

give it to Ovehkin! I don't want to hear them whine about Crosby winning another award!

[WordsOfWisdom]

The Art Ross is deterministic: it goes to the player with the most points.    Perhaps you meant the Hart trophy? 

 

Has a defenceman ever won the Hart trophy? Why doesn't the league start awarding the Hart trophy to defencemen? Clearly they're more important to their team's success than any one forward is these days. 

 

[end soap box]

[mojo1917]

Drew Doughty for Hart !

[JagerMeister]

Drew Doughty for Hart !

Zac Rinaldo for the lady byng

[notfondajane]

Marc Andre Fleury for the worst goalie!

[JackStraw]

The Art Ross is deterministic: it goes to the player with the most points.    Perhaps you meant the Hart trophy? 

 

Has a defenceman ever won the Hart trophy? Why doesn't the league start awarding the Hart trophy to defencemen? Clearly they're more important to their team's success than any one forward is these days. 

 

[end soap box]

Off the top of my head, Orr and Pronger both won the Hart. Orr actually won the Art Ross, Hart, Norris and Conn Smythe in the same year.

[WordsOfWisdom]

Off the top of my head, Orr and Pronger both won the Hart. Orr actually won the Art Ross, Hart, Norris and Conn Smythe in the same year.

 

Good call. I looked at the list of Hart trophy winners.  But with the exception of Orr and Pronger, it almost always goes to a forward.

 

So basically, you need to be Bobby Orr to win the Hart trophy if you're a defenceman. That's the standard. 

 

Given the lack of scoring in today's game, I think there shouldn't even be a forward nominated for the Hart trophy this year. It should be defencemen and goalies on the ballot only.   

[JagerMeister]

Good call. I looked at the list of Hart trophy winners.  But with the exception of Orr and Pronger, it almost always goes to a forward.

 

So basically, you need to be Bobby Orr to win the Hart trophy if you're a defenceman. That's the standard. 

 

Given the lack of scoring in today's game, I think there shouldn't even be a forward nominated for the Hart trophy this year. It should be defencemen and goalies on the ballot only. 

Ovechkin has a decent argument for the Hart. But ultimately, i think it will go to Price. Who has carried an average team and is currently the clear cut best goalie right now. There is no clear cut best forward or defenseman..