why do drafted players wait until they are 20 to start in ahl?

[JackStraw]

Why would they complain about it if there's nothing they can do about it?

 

They didn't have to agree to it in the first place. You think someone forced the NHL to agree to this rule? I doubt that.

 

Are you inside all the closed doors?  You've heard ever random grumble?

 

No and no. Are you? Have you?

[briere48]

You should be able to do what you want with your employee. The whole "stay with the NHL or go back to juniors" part of it is moronic.If I'm understanding the OP correctly, it's the jumping through hoops is what he takes issue with and he's right. If you want to send them back to juniors, that's fine. But you should also be allowed to send them to the A if that's what you want.

 

 

exactly, i think this why edm kept the drafted players on their roster because they couldnt sent them to the ahl to get development instead they would go back to juniors and they feared it would screw up their development if they went back to juniors. it's a flawed system

[radoran]

I just don't assume because no one's whining about it in the press that some GM's occasionally wouldn't like a bit more flexibility.

 

Occasionally they might like some more flexibility, sure.

 

In general there's nothing that really gets hurt in this scenario.

 

Changing it and allowing teams to poach kids out of the CHL would fundamentally alter the structure and viability of unquestionably the largest single developer of talent that the NHL has. That's why the NHL agrees to it. They have an entire developmental program which is almost exclusively dedicated to providing them with talent evaluation and talent development without costing them $1.

 

For the NHL, the system ain't broke. Doesn't need to be fixed.

[JackStraw]

You should be able to do what you want with your employee. The whole "stay with the NHL or go back to juniors" part of it is moronic.If I'm understanding the OP correctly, it's the jumping through hoops is what he takes issue with and he's right. If you want to send them back to juniors, that's fine. But you should also be allowed to send them to the A if that's what you want.

 

I'm sure you know that contract law is a huge (and complicated) field and that there are all sorts of restrictions on how employers can treat their employees. And the NHL placed this restriction on themselves, so who is the victim here?

[radoran]

exactly, i think this why edm kept the drafted players on their roster because they couldnt sent them to the ahl to get development instead they would go back to juniors and they feared it would screw up their development if they went back to juniors. it's a flawed system

 

EDM's situation has a helvua lot more to do with the inept people in charge of the franchise than getting "screwed" by not being able to stash kids in the AHL.

 

Is there anyone who has seen their development "screwed up" by another year in Juniors? Anyone?

 

I seriously don't know so I am asking the question.

 

No one immediately jumps to mind and in the lack of significant numbers of players who have been "hurt" there seems to be a lack of a serious problem in need of addressing.

[King Knut]

Changing it and allowing teams to poach kids out of the CHL

 

How do you "poach"  your own draftee?

 

Not that I don't see your point. I'm just basically saying that it's not without it's downside for the NHL teams.

It certainly seems to have more upside to the Junior teams.

 

it could clearly be worse.  take a look at MLB.  That system is so convoluted bloated and expensive and it just swallows potential chews it up and way more often then not, squahses it.

 

Players end up being 25 26 years olf before they even get a crack at the big leagues and then if they happen to be good, they get enormous contracts that they very quickly age out of being worth while. 

 

Ultimately, I think young players are fare more responsive to adversity and the challenge of more intense levels of play and that players with serious potential would do better from the increased competition sooner.  But that's for like the top 5-7% of all young players.  As it is now, they basically have to be top 1% to get that shot to respond to the challenge.

 

I don't think it's a problem institutionally that needs to be corrected.  I'm not calling for anything of the sort.  Just once in a while, it's a bit of a bummer for specific guys here and there.

[radoran]

Not that I don't see your point. I'm just basically saying that it's not without it's downside for the NHL teams.

It certainly seems to have more upside to the Junior teams.

 

It certainly does - and it is designed to have the short-term upside for Junior teams.

 

The immense upside for the NHL is having a complete talent evaluation and development program they don't have to pay for.

 

Honestly, I don't see "having to wait until you are 20" to be such an unreasonable imposition on a player

 

How do you "poach" your own draftee?

 

By taking them away from their Junior team and having them play for a team that's not yours, either? Not every team has the same setup as the Flyers/Phantoms. The Hershey Bears, for example, aren't owned by the Capitals.

 

The current system is far from perfect, but isn't so fundamentally flawed that it "needs" to be "fixed."

[murraycraven]

exactly, i think this why edm kept the drafted players on their roster because they couldnt sent them to the ahl to get development instead they would go back to juniors and they feared it would screw up their development if they went back to juniors. it's a flawed system

 

how is that approach working for Edmonton these days?

[flyercanuck]

exactly, i think this why edm kept the drafted players on their roster because they couldnt sent them to the ahl to get development instead they would go back to juniors and they feared it would screw up their development if they went back to juniors. it's a flawed system

 

 

Leon Draisaitl would have been far better off back in junior than on the Oilers. Everybody in the entire hockey world knew it...except for Oil management.

[AJgoal]

Leon Draisaitl would have been far better off back in junior anywhere other than on the Oilers. Everybody in the entire hockey world knew it...except for Oil management.

[radoran]

Leon Draisaitl would have been far better off back in junior than on the Oilers. Everybody in the entire hockey world knew it...except for Oil management.

 

I really do think there are FAR more examples of guys who were rushed into the NHL than guys who were "hurt" staying in Juniors.

[albertaflyer]

It is kind of a flawed system. Some players that are returned to juniors aren't going to get much out of playing against kids. I had chance to watch Sanheim play for the first time on Saturday night. A player like him returning to juniors next year would not help him develop. He is pretty far ahead of others at his age. I was pretty impressed with his skill level. He see's the ice so well. A kid like him would benefit way more from being in the AHL. I think the same could be said for Morin.

[radoran]

A kid like him would benefit way more from being in the AHL. I think the same could be said for Morin.

 

True, I just think that the point is that those are by far the exception as opposed to the rule.

 

And, quite frankly, both of those guys have a pretty good shot of making the Flyers roster assuming they clear some of the "dead wood."

 

That said, I do think there is something to be said for the experience that, for example, a guy like Morin gets being "the man" on a team has versus being "a guy" in the AHL.

 

In the end, though, it's not about making exceptions, it's about protecting the system as a whole. And the system as a whole is a heckuvalot more valuable to the league than the current number of "exceptions" would be.

[albertaflyer]

True, I just think that the point is that those are by far the exception as opposed to the rule.

 

And, quite frankly, both of those guys have a pretty good shot of making the Flyers roster assuming they clear some of the "dead wood."

 

That said, I do think there is something to be said for the experience that, for example, a guy like Morin gets being "the man" on a team has versus being "a guy" in the AHL.

 

In the end, though, it's not about making exceptions, it's about protecting the system as a whole. And the system as a whole is a heckuvalot more valuable to the league than the current number of "exceptions" would be.

I think Morin probably has a better shot at making the Flyers next season. From what I saw with Sanheim, he has great skill and see's the game really well. But I think he needs to put on some weight. He's a tall kid but he looks pretty slender out on the ice. I think the Flyers got a good one though. I came away from that game pretty impressed.

[radoran]

I think Morin probably has a better shot at making the Flyers next season. From what I saw with Sanheim, he has great skill and see's the game really well. But I think he needs to put on some weight. He's a tall kid but he looks pretty slender out on the ice. I think the Flyers got a good one though. I came away from that game pretty impressed.

 

I haven't seen Sanheim play, but I have heard nothing but good things about him.

 

FWIW, I do think that having that extra year to build the frame and get used to skating with it is probably better done as an overage junior than a 19-year-old AHLer.

 

For example, the knock on Gotstobehere was always his size and he's already spent some time on IR this season. Not straight apples-to-apples because of age and injuries "happen anywhere" but the AHL is, IMO, a "rougher" league than Juniors with a lot of guys trying to make a name for themselves.

[albertaflyer]

I haven't seen Sanheim play, but I have heard nothing but good things about him.

 

FWIW, I do think that having that extra year to build the frame and get used to skating with it is probably better done as an overage junior than a 19-year-old AHLer.

 

For example, the knock on Gotstobehere was always his size and he's already spent some time on IR this season. Not straight apples-to-apples because of age and injuries "happen anywhere" but the AHL is, IMO, a "rougher" league than Juniors with a lot of guys trying to make a name for themselves.

I guess that's one way to look at.  Makes sense. Gives us something to look forward to when they both get here. They both play a fairly similar game. Seems weird being able getting excited about the Flyers D for once.

[radoran]

Seems weird being able getting excited about the Flyers D for once.

 

Amen, to that, brother!

 

[fanaticV3.0]

I'm sure you know that contract law is a huge (and complicated) field and that there are all sorts of restrictions on how employers can treat their employees. And the NHL placed this restriction on themselves, so who is the victim here?

 

I don't care who created the system. Saying "the NHL is the one who came up with it" isn't a get out of jail free card for criticism. Organizations make mistakes all the time and yes sometimes they cause it themselves.

 

When you hire an employee, outside of something completely unreasonable or illegal, you should be able to assign them to the job you want to. There should be no requirement of sending kids anywhere after 8-9 games let alone a requirement of where to send them. If you don't like the way a kid is panning out early one and want to send him to the A to play with men, you should be allowed to do that. You should also be able to send them to juniors if that's what you think is best for them.

 

Plus, the A might actually be pretty awesome if the best prospects in the world played there. It would be real minor league and not the borderline useless entity it is now.

[fanaticV3.0]

exactly, i think this why edm kept the drafted players on their roster because they couldnt sent them to the ahl to get development instead they would go back to juniors and they feared it would screw up their development if they went back to juniors. it's a flawed system

 

There shouldn't be any restrictions. It shouldn't be "you have to send him back to juniors after ___ games or keep him in the league." That's moronic. Bad movie, but "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" seems appropriate here.

[JackStraw]

I don't care who created the system. Saying "the NHL is the one who came up with it" isn't a get out of jail free card for criticism. Organizations make mistakes all the time and yes sometimes they cause it themselves.

 

When you hire an employee, outside of something completely unreasonable or illegal, you should be able to assign them to the job you want to. There should be no requirement of sending kids anywhere after 8-9 games let alone a requirement of where to send them. If you don't like the way a kid is panning out early one and want to send him to the A to play with men, you should be allowed to do that. You should also be able to send them to juniors if that's what you think is best for them.

 

Plus, the A might actually be pretty awesome if the best prospects in the world played there. It would be real minor league and not the borderline useless entity it is now.

 

So you're arguing that despite the fact that the system is in place because the league wants it that way, that teams (i.e., the league) should be able to do what they want. Despite the fact that the current system is what they want. Else it presumably would not be the current system.

 

The problem is that you and others arguing against it are approaching it from the wrong angle. The teams aren't being treated unfairly here, they created the system. Franchises are granted by the league so the teams abide by what the league says and this stuff is all worked out in the CBA.

 

The people who are being treated unfairly (if you want to make an argument) are the players. The 18 year old kid who wants to play in the AHL, not the CHL. And you know what? If some 18 year old playing for Windsor decided to challenge the system, he might even win. He'd have to take it to the Supreme Court of course, and the SC has made it clear that they prefer not to get involved in the affairs of professional sports leagues, but they have in the past and the kid might have a case under federal anti-trust laws. Pretty unlikely to happen though, imo.

[murraycraven]

Just asking a question here but would'nt the Teams and Players Association have discussed this point in the CBA process if it were that important?

[JackStraw]

Just asking a question here but would'nt the Teams and Players Association would have discussed this point in the CBA process if it were that important?

 

I would think it's in the CBA.

[murraycraven]

I would think it's in the CBA.

 

 

Yeah, I am in the same boat. I would think this would have been a topic of discussion during the meetings of the new CBA...

[radoran]

There shouldn't be any restrictions. It shouldn't be "you have to send him back to juniors after ___ games or keep him in the league." That's moronic. Bad movie, but "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" seems appropriate here.

 

There "should be" whatever restrictions the NHL and the CHL mutually agree to.

 

And there are.

 

The CHL isn't "imposing" anything on the NHL. The CHL has said that if the NHL decides to start taking overage players out of the CHL and not play them in the AHL that the CHL wouldn't be the same league.

 

Because it wouldn't be.

 

The NHL has decided that it is in the best interests of the league itself to keep the rule the way it is.

 

Starting "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" after that point is the very definition of a fool's errand.

[JackStraw]

Yeah, I am in the same boat. I would think this would have been a topic of discussion during the meetings of the new CBA...

 

You can download the CBA from the NHL website. It doesn't contain the rule itself but it affirms the agreement between the NHL and the CHL on page 24:

 

 

2. (iv)  The return dates to Major Juniors (as established by Agreement between the NHL and the Canadian Hockey League, dated May 2, 1995 (or any successor or similar agreement so long as there is no material change in those return dates)), and the minor leagues (as set forth in Section 8.7) are hereby confirmed and affirmed and are continued during the term of this Agreement and any extension hereof (e.g., return dates, prohibition on sending underage players to minors).