Building an organization: comparing the Flyers and Wings

[yave1964]

 I am not the biggest fan of Ken Holland, I feel he has left the team marooned on an island several times recently, refusing to trade for a missing piece as the team has slipped in relevancy, to first or second round cannon fodder. It has gotten frustrating, he preached patience and now, well, he has been proven out as correct. I want to take a look at the Wings versus the Flyers, as this is a Flyer dominated forum to compare how the teams are put together.

 

 Holmstrom has made trade after trade to build the Flyers, the occasional splash in the free agent pool as well. He was rewarded with Lightning striking in 2010 and Pronger leading the team to the SCF and has had a mixed bag since, a god year followed by a bad year, playoffs followed by not making it.

  Holland has held steady allowing the kids to develop, in recent years he has held onto first rounders tightly, refused to rush prospects until they understood the Wings system and even when mediocre they are a playoff team. Now on the fly they are rebuilt for the long haul. A look at how the two teams rosters are put together:

 

FLYERS

 

DRAFT: (7)  Notably Couturier, Giroux, Read,  Laughton, Rinaldo and Raffl

 

TRADE: (11) most notably Simmonds, Voracek, Mason, Streit and the Schenn boys

 

FREE AGENTS: (4) Del zotto, Lecavalier, Emery and Schultz

 

TOP PROSPECTS: Gostisbehere,

 

WINGS

 

DRAFT: (18) Most notably Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard, Datsyuk, Nyquist, Tatar, Ericsson, Abdelkader, Sheahan, Helm and Franzen.

 

TRADE: (1) Quincey

 

FREE AGENTS: (3) Weiss, Miller and Gustafsson

 

TOP PROSPECTS: Mrazek, Pulkkinen, Mantha, Oullet and Marchenko

 

  Essentially, the Wings have occasionally tweaked the roster, setting a course with vision and have rebuilt on the fly from their last two Cup finals. One major signing, tweaking the roster with a few others but almost entirely built by within, refusing to rush prospects until they are good and ready and working them in slowly.

 

  The Flyers are not a bad organization. They are simply built different, probably half the teams in the league use the same model or similar, trading a guy to fill a hole then realizing the trade left them weak in that area so another trade or signing is needed to replace the guy who was shipped out. Quite frankly, it is a hell of a lot more fun to watch then Holland with his only make a move outside of the organization when absolutely forced to do so mentality, but not nearly as effective.

 

  The Flyers way can and has won cups. The 1994 Rangers had a few homegrown kids and half the old Edmonton Oilers. The Wings in 2002 (pre salary cap) went out and added HOFers Hasek, Robitaille and Hull to a core that already had quite a few big names who they had traded for or signed.

 

  But that is kind of my point with Holland, and Bowman in Chicago an d Lombardi in Los Angeles. All three have recognized that in this Salary cap era, growing your own, investing in a player and adding the occasional puzzle piece is the most likely way to build a consistent contender. I remember when the Wings could sign those boys or trade for Shanahan or Coffey or whoever the hell they wanted, but even then, they were the final piece of a puzzle, with homegrown stars such as Federov, Yzerman and Lidstrom as the core.

 

  The Flyers have some solid pieces in place, Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds are one hell of  a trio, Brayden Schenn can play and IMHO needs to be moved back to center, Couts is solid, the defense, while unspecatular has NHL players with talent, Mason, when healthy is a playoff caliber team.

 

  What they need to do, is hoard picks, maybe even deal a piece or two off for additional picks and then stay the course. In this salary cap era, it is not fun, it can be pretty boring at times but it is a proven model.

 

 Again, not tooting the Wings horn, it is damn frustrating watching everyone spend millions on free agents and coming home empty, and making a trade about every leap year, but it works and the product on the ice right now is proof. The fantasy hockey approach worked a decade ago, the Monty Hall, lets make a deal way which I quite truthfully miss the hell out of, but if you look at the top tier teams in the league today, most but admittedly not all are built from within. Tampa, Montreal, Chicago, the Kings, the Ducks, the Blues, while some others such as the Penguins and Rangers are constantly tweaking their roster, proof that it can work if you catch lightning in a bottle at the right time.

 

 

[brelic]

FLYERS
 
DRAFT: (7)  Notably Couturier, Giroux, Read,  Laughton, Rinaldo and Raffl

 

Just want to point out that Read and Raffl were not drafted; they were discovered in other leagues and signed as free agents.

[JackStraw]

@yave1964 - Top prospects for the Flyers should include Sanheim (arguably the Flyers top prospect), Morin, and Hagg as well as Ghost. Also probably at least Oskar Lindblom who had a bit of a breakout WJC.

 

 

Holmstrom has made trade after trade to build the Flyers

 

Tomas Holmstrom has been building the Flyers? No wonder we're in trouble!  

 

Anyway, it should also be mentioned that Holmgren is no longer the GM and that Hextall appears to be taking a different, more patient, approach to building the team. More "Wings-like" if you prefer...

[flyercanuck]

In a capped league you have to use your draft picks wisely. Holmgren traded away a truckload of draft picks, including many 1st and 2nd round picks. He was also wasn't very good at managing the cap when it came to contracts. Even when he caught a break to get out of some of his blunders (amnesty buyouts that got rid of the Bryz and Briere contracts) he couldn't help himself and signed Vinnie to just as stupid a deal.

 

Having Ghost as our only prospect is dead wrong. Sanheim, Morin, Laughton are all better prospects.

[JackStraw]

In a capped league you have to use your draft picks wisely. Holmgren traded away a truckload of draft picks, including many 1st and 2nd round picks. He was also wasn't very good at managing the cap when it came to contracts. Even when he caught a break to get out of some of his blunders (amnesty buyouts that got rid of the Bryz and Briere contracts) he couldn't help himself and signed Vinnie to just as stupid a deal.

 

Having Ghost as our only prospect is dead wrong. Sanheim, Morin, Laughton are all better prospects.

 

I wasn't sure if Laughton should still be considered a prospect, but I agree.

[flyercanuck]

@JackStraw

 

HF uses 65 games as the cutoff. Laughtons played 30.

[flyer4ever]

The Wings had Yzerman and Lidstrom. Generational players, unreplacable for skill and leadership. Lidstrom needs to be in the conversation of best ever. Trying to hold Holland responsible for that is wrong. The Wings are still the benchmark franchise in the modern NHL.

[JackStraw]

Just want to point out that Read and Raffl were not drafted; they were discovered in other leagues and signed as free agents.

 

As was Bellemare.

[JackStraw]

@JackStraw

 

HF uses 65 games as the cutoff. Laughtons played 30.

 

WFM (works for me)

[brelic]

As was Bellemare.

 

Yes, but he wasn't on yave's list.

 

And I would say that Bellemare is a dime a dozen player - maybe he fits under 'free agents', where Read and Raffl should be, but he's completely replaceable.

[yave1964]

@yave1964 - Top prospects for the Flyers should include Sanheim (arguably the Flyers top prospect), Morin, and Hagg as well as Ghost. Also probably at least Oskar Lindblom who had a bit of a breakout WJC.

 

 

 

Tomas Holmstrom has been building the Flyers? No wonder we're in trouble!  

 

Anyway, it should also be mentioned that Holmgren is no longer the GM and that Hextall appears to be taking a different, more patient, approach to building the team. More "Wings-like" if you prefer...

Homer, sorry!! By top prospects, I should have clarified 'ready now' or near ready who can step in this year or next. The Flyers do not have a lot of those guys right now.

[radoran]

EDIT: split off the Flyer prospect discussion to the appropriate thread in the Flyers forum

[flyerrod]

EDIT: split off the Flyer prospect discussion to the appropriate thread in the Flyers forum

I don't know rad, It is very intertwined with this topic and how the teams are built. It is nice to have Hexy in charge instead of Homer( Squirrel!) or (SHINY!)and off he goes.......generally to the deep end.

[radoran]

I don't know rad, It is very intertwined with this topic and how the teams are built. It is nice to have Hexy in charge instead of Homer( Squirrel!) or (SHINY!)and off he goes.......generally to the deep end.

 

It was some of the "getting into the weeds" about specific players and back and forth about those prospects.

 

I left some of the appropriate posts (see flyercanuck and JackStraw above, for example).

[yave1964]

@yave1964 - Top prospects for the Flyers should include Sanheim (arguably the Flyers top prospect), Morin, and Hagg as well as Ghost. Also probably at least Oskar Lindblom who had a bit of a breakout WJC.

 

 

 

Tomas Holmstrom has been building the Flyers? No wonder we're in trouble!  

 

Anyway, it should also be mentioned that Holmgren is no longer the GM and that Hextall appears to be taking a different, more patient, approach to building the team. More "Wings-like" if you prefer...

Well if Thomas Holmstrom were running the team he probably couldn't have done worse than Holmgren, lol.

[SpikeDDS]

@yave1964

 

But it cannot be understated that while this has been true, the REASON Holland has been able to be patient was that successful core sticking around long enough so that the Wings never really bottomed out. There was, thus, less pressure from fans i.e. ticket buyers to make such an ill-advised move. The Legwand deal was the aberration, but that was merely to ensure they would extend the streak, but it shows even with just that amount of pressure, Holland can flinch too. Being successful gives you more options and less pressure to do something stupid. He hasn't put us in such a position where he's been tempted to flinch, very often. Lidstrom really allowed a LOT of development as have Pav and Z. The one time when we really didn't have any of them (the last two because of injury), he flinched, and the Preds say, "Thank you."

 

What is ALSO somewhat interesting is that if you'll remember when the cap came to be, the Red Wings were supposedly the team that was going to be hurt the MOST, because prior to that they had been buying their teams. So Holland had to radically change what they were doing. Now some of it was by necessity, because we didn't have any early-round draft picks, but I think there was also a conscious decision by the leadership within the organization that their best option was to rely on their farm system as the main foundation.

 

And lets be honest: I can't think of a team that has better scouting that the Detroit Red Wings has. It's been proven again and again. Without that, Holland's job is practically impossible to do like he has done. Fans would be calling for his head long before now.

 

So it really is a testament about the fundamentals of the organization even as much as it is their strategy, because without those fundamentals, there is too much pressure, too little talent, and not enough winning to allow this kind of development. But I think that really may have been your point. Holland, yes, gets the credit, because he's running things, but it's not just about Holland by ANY stretch. It's the organization as a whole. It's a synergistic relationship.

[WingNut722]

@yave1964  @SpikeDDS

 

Fantastic post and great comments!  I would add, that this salary cap and expanded team era should be viewed much like life itself.  If you wanted to get your house painted, you could go out and spend money to hire a contractor to do it, or spend more money to have a premium contractor do it.  But in the end, long, arduous, and frustrating as it might be, doing it yourself often times gives you a better result.

 

And don't knock Holland for not spending money.  We've all been frustrated with lousy free agent signing the last few years, save for Alfredsson and (becoming increasingly clear) Weiss.  But how many screaming threads did we post when we lost out on the hot picks in Parise, Suter, Ehrhoff, Niskanen, Vanek.  We can only speculate whether Holland offered them millions in salary, millions in bonuses, new cars, and his high school varsity jacket, but these guys still went somewhere else.  And what happened?  Minnesota, Washington, Colorado, Columbus; all these teams are no closer to a Cup (or even a playoff spot, in some cases) than they were before, and I suspect the same would be true for Detroit.  The successful teams who have remained successful in the new era are the ones who routinely develop from within - Detroit, Pittsburgh, Islanders, Chicago, Boston, LA.

[flyercanuck]

@yave1964  @SpikeDDS

 

Fantastic post and great comments!  I would add, that this salary cap and expanded team era should be viewed much like life itself.  If you wanted to get your house painted, you could go out and spend money to hire a contractor to do it, or spend more money to have a premium contractor do it.  But in the end, long, arduous, and frustrating as it might be, doing it yourself often times gives you a better result.

 

And don't knock Holland for not spending money.  We've all been frustrated with lousy free agent signing the last few years, save for Alfredsson and (becoming increasingly clear) Weiss.  But how many screaming threads did we post when we lost out on the hot picks in Parise, Suter, Ehrhoff, Niskanen, Vanek.  We can only speculate whether Holland offered them millions in salary, millions in bonuses, new cars, and his high school varsity jacket, but these guys still went somewhere else.  And what happened?  Minnesota, Washington, Colorado, Columbus; all these teams are no closer to a Cup (or even a playoff spot, in some cases) than they were before, and I suspect the same would be true for Detroit.  The successful teams who have remained successful in the new era are the ones who routinely develop from within - Detroit, Pittsburgh, Islanders, Chicago, Boston, LA.

 

 

The Islanders are a successful team that has remained successful? 

 

Not sure Pitt is a "developing from within" team. The last gm inherited Crosby, Malkin Letang and didn't add a whole lot that wasn't trade/FA. Maatta looks good if he can stay healthy. But other than that Bennett/Despres are all they really have to show for the past 9 drafts.

[WingNut722]

The Islanders are a successful team that has remained successful? 

 

Not sure Pitt is a "developing from within" team. The last gm inherited Crosby, Malkin Letang and didn't add a whole lot that wasn't trade/FA. Maatta looks good if he can stay healthy. But other than that Bennett/Despres are all they really have to show for the past 9 drafts.

 

I included the Isles in there only because with their homegrown talent in Tavares, Okposo, and (until recently) Moulson and Parenteau.  They're been at the top of the Metro division pretty much the whole season without the likes of Parise and Suter, et al.  

[flyercanuck]

@WingNut722

 

Parise and Suter were Devils and preds...not Isles.

[radoran]

@WingNut722

 

Parise and Suter were Devils and preds...not Isles.

 

Yeah, somehow after dumping Streit and MacDonald, the Islanders got good...

 

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

 

Chasing the dragon....apparently it doesn't work.

[WingNut722]

@WingNut722

 

Parise and Suter were Devils and preds...not Isles.

 

I realize that.  But the point I was trying to make is that the Isles are achieving success by developing their own core and NOT shelling out big money for landmark free agents, which is where the Parise/Suter remark came from.  Minnesota spent the big bucks to get those two guys and several others and are still no better off in the standings.    

[yave1964]

I realize that.  But the point I was trying to make is that the Isles are achieving success by developing their own core and NOT shelling out big money for landmark free agents, which is where the Parise/Suter remark came from.  Minnesota spent the big bucks to get those two guys and several others and are still no better off in the standings.    

Agreed with the Isles, tho Moulson and Parenteau came to the Isles originally from other organizations.

 

 But now, to go along with Tavares and Okposo, they have homegrown forwards such as Strome, Lee and Brock Nelson among the forwards and on defense they have Hamonic and De Haan. Others in the mix on the club are Martin, Bailey and Casey Cizicas and more coming thru the pipeline.

 

  But they have went outside of the organization quite a bit as well, more than most teams who build thru the draft, Halak, Boychuk, Leddy, Kulimen and Grabovski all came in the offseason from elsewhere to fill important roles. But the basic premise, that the Isles are doing a good job of building thru the draft is correct, at least recently. More in the pipeline such as Reinhart are on the way.

[WingNut722]

Agreed with the Isles, tho Moulson and Parenteau came to the Isles originally from other organizations.

 

 But now, to go along with Tavares and Okposo, they have homegrown forwards such as Strome, Lee and Brock Nelson among the forwards and on defense they have Hamonic and De Haan. Others in the mix on the club are Martin, Bailey and Casey Cizicas and more coming thru the pipeline.

 

  But they have went outside of the organization quite a bit as well, more than most teams who build thru the draft, Halak, Boychuk, Leddy, Kulimen and Grabovski all came in the offseason from elsewhere to fill important roles. But the basic premise, that the Isles are doing a good job of building thru the draft is correct, at least recently. More in the pipeline such as Reinhart are on the way.

 

Well no team does it "completely" on their own, but yes, that was my point.