The Top 10 Centers of All-Time

[ScottM]

 

Every time I do one of these lists, it seems that I make a comment about how there are more worthy candidates than there are slots on the list. With the historical depth at center, that's true for this position more than any other, with the possible exception of goalie. Centers are often some of the most incredible athletes in hockey, because not only are they involved in the attack, but they have a greater defensive responsibility than wingers. These men are not only among the top centers in the history of hockey, they are among the top players in the history of hockey. On to greatness!

 

#10 Bryan Trottier

 

524 goals, 901 assists, 1,425 points in 1,279 NHL games; 1 Art Ross Trophy, 1 Hart Trophy

 

Bryan Trottier was one of the biggest keys to the early 80’s Islanders dynasty. His best statistical season was the year before the first of the Isles’ four consecutive Stanley Cup titles, but it was certainly not his only good year. He posted six 100+ point seasons in a seven year span. He wasn’t only an offensive talent though. Even when his goal and assist totals began to fall, Trottier remained a force thanks to his defensive skill.

 

#9 Steve Yzerman

 

692 goals, 1,063 assists, 1,755 points in 1,514 NHL games

 

When Stevie Y ranks ninth, you know the position has a lot of depth. He never won a scoring title or a Hart Trophy, but Yzerman is still one of the best to ever lace up skates. He is one of only eight players to have multiple 60 goal seasons. Like Trottier, he remained a force later in his career thanks to his defense, winning the Selke Trophy in the 1999-2000 season. Yzerman spent his entire career in Detroit and captained the Red Wings to three Stanley Cup titles.

 

#8 Mark Messier

 

694 goals, 1,193 assists, 1,887 points in 1,756 NHL games; 2 Hart Trophies

 

I have Mess lower than most would, and we even have a thread about that. Regardless of where he’s ranked, he’s still an all-time great. He’s second in league history in games played and points. He’s third in career assists, and eighth in career goals. He’s the only player to captain two different teams to the Stanley Cup and played on six Cup winning teams. Oh, and here’s a fact our very own @yave1964 will love: He was the last player to play in the WHA to be active in the NHL.

 

#7 Bobby Clarke

 

358 goals, 852 assists, 1,210 points in 1,144 career NHL games; 3 Hart Trophies

 

If you ever meet Bobby Clarke in a dark alley, I have one word of advice: Run! He wasn’t going to pile up goals, but he was great at setting them up. He had no problem heading for the corner to grind out the puck, and played a bruising style. Clarke of the best two-way forwards in the history of the game, and he holds a Selke Trophy to prove it. Strong leadership was also a quality of his play, as he captained the Broad Street Bullies to consecutive Stanley Cups in 1974 and ’75.

 

#6 Stan Mikita

 

541 goals, 926 assists, 1,467 points in 1,394 career NHL games; 4 Art Ross Trophies, 2 Hart Trophies

 

Early in his career, Mikita seemed to spend more time sitting down than standing up, as noted by his young daughter. However, he shifted from a rough style of play to become one of the most gentlemanly players in the game. One thing didn’t change. That was his status as one of the best playmakers the game has ever seen. He spent his entire career with the Chicago Black Hawks, and was the team captain for a couple of years late in his career. He was a key cog in the only Chicago title of the Original Six era, and helped Bobby Hull establish himself as the best goal-scorer of the 60’s.

 

#5 Jean Beliveau

 

507 goals, 712 assists, 1,219 points in 1,125 NHL games; 1 Art Ross Trophy, 2 Hart Trophies

 

Only Henri Richard won more Stanley Cups than Les Gros Bill. In a career spent entirely with Montreal, Beliveau had his name etched into the Cup a remarkable 10 times, and was team captain for five of those. For fifteen years, he was unquestionably one of the top players in the game. In addition to his two Hart Trophy wins, he had four runner-up finishes. He never lost his effectiveness and was still a serious offensive threat at the time of his retirement at age 39. That season, he posted 76 points and led the playoffs in assists. He was a true ageless wonder.

 

#4 Howie Morenz

 

271 goals, 201 assists, 472 points in 550 career NHL games; 1 goal-scoring title, 2 scoring titles, 3 Hart Trophies

 

We lost him in a tragic way at far too young of an age, but the great Howie Morenz transcends time. He racked up accolades in his relatively short career, and for a time was the league’s all-time goal scoring leader. It would be hard to make the case for anyone else as the best player of the late 20’s and early 30’s.  A career-long Hab, he won three Stanley Cups with Montreal, making vital contributions toward each. Sadly, he lost his life at the young age of 34 due to complications to a broken leg he suffered during a game.

 

#3 Phil Esposito

 

717 goals, 873 assists, 1,590 points in 1,282 career NHL games; 6 goal-scoring titles,5 Art Ross Trophies, 2 Hart Trophies

 

Bobby Hull once held the single-season NHL record for goals with 58. Then, in the 1970-71 season, Phil Esposito shattered it with a 76-goal outburst. It was the second of six consecutive seasons that he led the league in goals. In fact, he posted the first four 60+ goal seasons in NHL history. He was also capable of setting up teammates to score, and led the league in assists three times. When talking about players purely from an offensive standpoint, almost none are better than Phil Esposito.

 

#2 Mario Lemieux

690 goals, 1,033 assists, 1,723 poi

nts in 915 career games; 3 goal-scoring titles, 6 Art Ross Trophies, 3 Hart Trophies

 

Super Mario had a career shortened by illness, but the illness couldn’t shorten his greatness. He’s one of only three players to have an 80-goal season. He helped to establish the Penguins as a powerhouse in the 1990’s, and after returning from retirement had the unusual distinction of being an active player enshrined in the Hall of Fame. His greatness was so obvious that the waiting period was waived after his first retirement. The shortness of his career brings up what if questions, but he’s an obvious top two pick in this list.

 

#1 Wayne Gretzky

 

894 goals, 1,963 assists, 2,857 points in 1,487 career NHL games; 5 goal scoring titles, 11 Art Ross Trophies, 9 Hart Trophies

 

It probably won’t surprise you to know that it took all of zero thought to know where I’d rank Gretzky. I’m not going to even bother trying to list his records. I have a feeling the number of records he holds is a record. The Great One led the Edmonton Oilers to four Stanley Cup championships, and after being traded to the Kings helped establish hockey as a force in southern California. He led a surprising Los Angeles team to the Stanley Cup Finals in 1993. He’s one of the few players in the history of the sport that have been synonymous with the sport itself to his generation. He’s the clear number one center in my mind.

[JagerMeister]

 

Every time I do one of these lists, it seems that I make a comment about how there are more worthy candidates than there are slots on the list. With the historical depth at center, that's true for this position more than any other, with the possible exception of goalie. Centers are often some of the most incredible athletes in hockey, because not only are they involved in the attack, but they have a greater defensive responsibility than wingers. These men are not only among the top centers in the history of hockey, they are among the top players in the history of hockey. On to greatness!

 

#10 Bryan Trottier

 

524 goals, 901 assists, 1,425 points in 1,279 NHL games; 1 Art Ross Trophy, 1 Hart Trophy

 

Bryan Trottier was one of the biggest keys to the early 80’s Islanders dynasty. His best statistical season was the year before the first of the Isles’ four consecutive Stanley Cup titles, but it was certainly not his only good year. He posted six 100+ point seasons in a seven year span. He wasn’t only an offensive talent though. Even when his goal and assist totals began to fall, Trottier remained a force thanks to his defensive skill.

 

#9 Steve Yzerman

 

692 goals, 1,063 assists, 1,755 points in 1,514 NHL games

 

When Stevie Y ranks ninth, you know the position has a lot of depth. He never won a scoring title or a Hart Trophy, but Yzerman is still one of the best to ever lace up skates. He is one of only eight players to have multiple 60 goal seasons. Like Trottier, he remained a force later in his career thanks to his defense, winning the Selke Trophy in the 1999-2000 season. Yzerman spent his entire career in Detroit and captained the Red Wings to three Stanley Cup titles.

 

#8 Mark Messier

 

694 goals, 1,193 assists, 1,887 points in 1,756 NHL games; 2 Hart Trophies

 

I have Mess lower than most would, and we even have a thread about that. Regardless of where he’s ranked, he’s still an all-time great. He’s second in league history in games played and points. He’s third in career assists, and eighth in career goals. He’s the only player to captain two different teams to the Stanley Cup and played on six Cup winning teams. Oh, and here’s a fact our very own @yave1964 will love: He was the last player to play in the WHA to be active in the NHL.

 

#7 Bobby Clarke

 

358 goals, 852 assists, 1,210 points in 1,144 career NHL games; 3 Hart Trophies

 

If you ever meet Bobby Clarke in a dark alley, I have one word of advice: Run! He wasn’t going to pile up goals, but he was great at setting them up. He had no problem heading for the corner to grind out the puck, and played a bruising style. Clarke of the best two-way forwards in the history of the game, and he holds a Selke Trophy to prove it. Strong leadership was also a quality of his play, as he captained the Broad Street Bullies to consecutive Stanley Cups in 1974 and ’75.

 

#6 Stan Mikita

 

541 goals, 926 assists, 1,467 points in 1,394 career NHL games; 4 Art Ross Trophies, 2 Hart Trophies

 

Early in his career, Mikita seemed to spend more time sitting down than standing up, as noted by his young daughter. However, he shifted from a rough style of play to become one of the most gentlemanly players in the game. One thing didn’t change. That was his status as one of the best playmakers the game has ever seen. He spent his entire career with the Chicago Black Hawks, and was the team captain for a couple of years late in his career. He was a key cog in the only Chicago title of the Original Six era, and helped Bobby Hull establish himself as the best goal-scorer of the 60’s.

 

#5 Jean Beliveau

 

507 goals, 712 assists, 1,219 points in 1,125 NHL games; 1 Art Ross Trophy, 2 Hart Trophies

 

Only Henri Richard won more Stanley Cups than Les Gros Bill. In a career spent entirely with Montreal, Beliveau had his name etched into the Cup a remarkable 10 times, and was team captain for five of those. For fifteen years, he was unquestionably one of the top players in the game. In addition to his two Hart Trophy wins, he had four runner-up finishes. He never lost his effectiveness and was still a serious offensive threat at the time of his retirement at age 39. That season, he posted 76 points and led the playoffs in assists. He was a true ageless wonder.

 

#4 Howie Morenz

 

271 goals, 201 assists, 472 points in 550 career NHL games; 1 goal-scoring title, 2 scoring titles, 3 Hart Trophies

 

We lost him in a tragic way at far too young of an age, but the great Howie Morenz transcends time. He racked up accolades in his relatively short career, and for a time was the league’s all-time goal scoring leader. It would be hard to make the case for anyone else as the best player of the late 20’s and early 30’s.  A career-long Hab, he won three Stanley Cups with Montreal, making vital contributions toward each. Sadly, he lost his life at the young age of 34 due to complications to a broken leg he suffered during a game.

 

#3 Phil Esposito

 

717 goals, 873 assists, 1,590 points in 1,282 career NHL games; 6 goal-scoring titles,5 Art Ross Trophies, 2 Hart Trophies

 

Bobby Hull once held the single-season NHL record for goals with 58. Then, in the 1970-71 season, Phil Esposito shattered it with a 76-goal outburst. It was the second of six consecutive seasons that he led the league in goals. In fact, he posted the first four 60+ goal seasons in NHL history. He was also capable of setting up teammates to score, and led the league in assists three times. When talking about players purely from an offensive standpoint, almost none are better than Phil Esposito.

 

#2 Mario Lemieux

690 goals, 1,033 assists, 1,723 poi

nts in 915 career games; 3 goal-scoring titles, 6 Art Ross Trophies, 3 Hart Trophies

 

Super Mario had a career shortened by illness, but the illness couldn’t shorten his greatness. He’s one of only three players to have an 80-goal season. He helped to establish the Penguins as a powerhouse in the 1990’s, and after returning from retirement had the unusual distinction of being an active player enshrined in the Hall of Fame. His greatness was so obvious that the waiting period was waived after his first retirement. The shortness of his career brings up what if questions, but he’s an obvious top two pick in this list.

 

#1 Wayne Gretzky

 

894 goals, 1,963 assists, 2,857 points in 1,487 career NHL games; 5 goal scoring titles, 11 Art Ross Trophies, 9 Hart Trophies

 

It probably won’t surprise you to know that it took all of zero thought to know where I’d rank Gretzky. I’m not going to even bother trying to list his records. I have a feeling the number of records he holds is a record. The Great One led the Edmonton Oilers to four Stanley Cup championships, and after being traded to the Kings helped establish hockey as a force in southern California. He led a surprising Los Angeles team to the Stanley Cup Finals in 1993. He’s one of the few players in the history of the sport that have been synonymous with the sport itself to his generation. He’s the clear number one center in my mind.

 

 

Every time I do one of these lists, it seems that I make a comment about how there are more worthy candidates than there are slots on the list. With the historical depth at center, that's true for this position more than any other, with the possible exception of goalie. Centers are often some of the most incredible athletes in hockey, because not only are they involved in the attack, but they have a greater defensive responsibility than wingers. These men are not only among the top centers in the history of hockey, they are among the top players in the history of hockey. On to greatness!

 

#10 Bryan Trottier

 

524 goals, 901 assists, 1,425 points in 1,279 NHL games; 1 Art Ross Trophy, 1 Hart Trophy

 

Bryan Trottier was one of the biggest keys to the early 80’s Islanders dynasty. His best statistical season was the year before the first of the Isles’ four consecutive Stanley Cup titles, but it was certainly not his only good year. He posted six 100+ point seasons in a seven year span. He wasn’t only an offensive talent though. Even when his goal and assist totals began to fall, Trottier remained a force thanks to his defensive skill.

 

#9 Steve Yzerman

 

692 goals, 1,063 assists, 1,755 points in 1,514 NHL games

 

When Stevie Y ranks ninth, you know the position has a lot of depth. He never won a scoring title or a Hart Trophy, but Yzerman is still one of the best to ever lace up skates. He is one of only eight players to have multiple 60 goal seasons. Like Trottier, he remained a force later in his career thanks to his defense, winning the Selke Trophy in the 1999-2000 season. Yzerman spent his entire career in Detroit and captained the Red Wings to three Stanley Cup titles.

 

#8 Mark Messier

 

694 goals, 1,193 assists, 1,887 points in 1,756 NHL games; 2 Hart Trophies

 

I have Mess lower than most would, and we even have a thread about that. Regardless of where he’s ranked, he’s still an all-time great. He’s second in league history in games played and points. He’s third in career assists, and eighth in career goals. He’s the only player to captain two different teams to the Stanley Cup and played on six Cup winning teams. Oh, and here’s a fact our very own @yave1964 will love: He was the last player to play in the WHA to be active in the NHL.

 

#7 Bobby Clarke

 

358 goals, 852 assists, 1,210 points in 1,144 career NHL games; 3 Hart Trophies

 

If you ever meet Bobby Clarke in a dark alley, I have one word of advice: Run! He wasn’t going to pile up goals, but he was great at setting them up. He had no problem heading for the corner to grind out the puck, and played a bruising style. Clarke of the best two-way forwards in the history of the game, and he holds a Selke Trophy to prove it. Strong leadership was also a quality of his play, as he captained the Broad Street Bullies to consecutive Stanley Cups in 1974 and ’75.

 

#6 Stan Mikita

 

541 goals, 926 assists, 1,467 points in 1,394 career NHL games; 4 Art Ross Trophies, 2 Hart Trophies

 

Early in his career, Mikita seemed to spend more time sitting down than standing up, as noted by his young daughter. However, he shifted from a rough style of play to become one of the most gentlemanly players in the game. One thing didn’t change. That was his status as one of the best playmakers the game has ever seen. He spent his entire career with the Chicago Black Hawks, and was the team captain for a couple of years late in his career. He was a key cog in the only Chicago title of the Original Six era, and helped Bobby Hull establish himself as the best goal-scorer of the 60’s.

 

#5 Jean Beliveau

 

507 goals, 712 assists, 1,219 points in 1,125 NHL games; 1 Art Ross Trophy, 2 Hart Trophies

 

Only Henri Richard won more Stanley Cups than Les Gros Bill. In a career spent entirely with Montreal, Beliveau had his name etched into the Cup a remarkable 10 times, and was team captain for five of those. For fifteen years, he was unquestionably one of the top players in the game. In addition to his two Hart Trophy wins, he had four runner-up finishes. He never lost his effectiveness and was still a serious offensive threat at the time of his retirement at age 39. That season, he posted 76 points and led the playoffs in assists. He was a true ageless wonder.

 

#4 Howie Morenz

 

271 goals, 201 assists, 472 points in 550 career NHL games; 1 goal-scoring title, 2 scoring titles, 3 Hart Trophies

 

We lost him in a tragic way at far too young of an age, but the great Howie Morenz transcends time. He racked up accolades in his relatively short career, and for a time was the league’s all-time goal scoring leader. It would be hard to make the case for anyone else as the best player of the late 20’s and early 30’s.  A career-long Hab, he won three Stanley Cups with Montreal, making vital contributions toward each. Sadly, he lost his life at the young age of 34 due to complications to a broken leg he suffered during a game.

 

#3 Phil Esposito

 

717 goals, 873 assists, 1,590 points in 1,282 career NHL games; 6 goal-scoring titles,5 Art Ross Trophies, 2 Hart Trophies

 

Bobby Hull once held the single-season NHL record for goals with 58. Then, in the 1970-71 season, Phil Esposito shattered it with a 76-goal outburst. It was the second of six consecutive seasons that he led the league in goals. In fact, he posted the first four 60+ goal seasons in NHL history. He was also capable of setting up teammates to score, and led the league in assists three times. When talking about players purely from an offensive standpoint, almost none are better than Phil Esposito.

 

#2 Mario Lemieux

690 goals, 1,033 assists, 1,723 poi

nts in 915 career games; 3 goal-scoring titles, 6 Art Ross Trophies, 3 Hart Trophies

 

Super Mario had a career shortened by illness, but the illness couldn’t shorten his greatness. He’s one of only three players to have an 80-goal season. He helped to establish the Penguins as a powerhouse in the 1990’s, and after returning from retirement had the unusual distinction of being an active player enshrined in the Hall of Fame. His greatness was so obvious that the waiting period was waived after his first retirement. The shortness of his career brings up what if questions, but he’s an obvious top two pick in this list.

 

#1 Wayne Gretzky

 

894 goals, 1,963 assists, 2,857 points in 1,487 career NHL games; 5 goal scoring titles, 11 Art Ross Trophies, 9 Hart Trophies

 

It probably won’t surprise you to know that it took all of zero thought to know where I’d rank Gretzky. I’m not going to even bother trying to list his records. I have a feeling the number of records he holds is a record. The Great One led the Edmonton Oilers to four Stanley Cup championships, and after being traded to the Kings helped establish hockey as a force in southern California. He led a surprising Los Angeles team to the Stanley Cup Finals in 1993. He’s one of the few players in the history of the sport that have been synonymous with the sport itself to his generation. He’s the clear number one center in my mind.

The omission of Joe Sakic, but adding in Yzerman to your list, in all due respect......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

......is just ***** stupid...

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMO....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[yave1964]

I like your list, the only thing I would have done different was Sakic in, Morenz out simply because pre-WW2 players never make my list, to me it was a different game impossible to compare. Yes, Morenz absolutely dominated the period and was 'The Babe Ruth of Hockey' but he really only had a few years of leading the league in scoring, twice, and other than that was what would have to consider a consistent second team all star. His death resulting from play on ice seems to have given him a bump in appeal.

 

Whatever Jager seems to have against Yzerman is pure unadulterated bull. With all due respect to Sakic, I would have to give Yzerman a slight edge in career value and a larger edge in peak value. And then count the cups, edge Yzerman. Sakic is still an immortal in my mind, a worthy opponent who I used to love watch play but this whole 'it is insulting to see Yzerman on your list and Sakic not' is without merit and pure bull. 

[JagerMeister]

I like your list, the only thing I would have done different was Sakic in, Morenz out simply because pre-WW2 players never make my list, to me it was a different game impossible to compare. Yes, Morenz absolutely dominated the period and was 'The Babe Ruth of Hockey' but he really only had a few years of leading the league in scoring, twice, and other than that was what would have to consider a consistent second team all star. His death resulting from play on ice seems to have given him a bump in appeal.

 

Whatever Jager seems to have against Yzerman is pure unadulterated bull. With all due respect to Sakic, I would have to give Yzerman a slight edge in career value and a larger edge in peak value. And then count the cups, edge Yzerman. Sakic is still an immortal in my mind, a worthy opponent who I used to love watch play but this whole 'it is insulting to see Yzerman on your list and Sakic not' is without merit and pure bull. 

     I have nothing against Yzerman at all, my comment, looking back at it, was quite the over exaggeration. Although i did have the Ninja....

Im not really sure if Yzerman had a higher peak value at all, you have to remember, that Yzerman had his 155 point season the same time Bernie Nicholls had his 150 point season....quite the high scoring era.

while Sakic, who had a 118 point season during the early 2000s (which was one of the lower scoring era's) was second in points, and also second in selke voting....which is comparable to Federov's 1994 season... one of the most impressive peak seasons of all time.

 

As for career value, yes, Yzerman had more cups, but Sakic was also the better playoff performer, and has more individual hardware.

 

And about Howie Morenz, i disagree actually.

"he really only had a few years of leading the league in scoring"

Yup, and Yzerman never led the league in anything at all....even if you remove Lemieux and Gretzky from the equation, Yzerman only leads the league in scoring once, thats still less than Howie Morenz...

[ScottM]

Morenz was really a pretty dominant player in his day. While his peak, and sadly, his career were relatively short, he stayed at or near the top of the goal scoring list. I think of him similarly to Bossy. Bossy had a fairly short shelf life, but he was dynamite in his day. Bossy didn't have the MVP awards that Morenz did though.

As far as Yzerman's 155 point season, that kind of number is impressive regardless of era. Only 16 times has any player reached the 150 mark, and only 3 of those was by someone not named Gretzky or Lemieux. When comparing it to Nicholls' season? Keep in mind that he scored 70(!) goals that year. Only eight players have ever done that. That 155 points was an incredibly impressive peak, but it wasn't a one season deal. Stevie Y had six straight 100 point seasons including a 137 and a 127 point season.

[JagerMeister]

Morenz was really a pretty dominant player in his day. While his peak, and sadly, his career were relatively short, he stayed at or near the top of the goal scoring list. I think of him similarly to Bossy. Bossy had a fairly short shelf life, but he was dynamite in his day. Bossy didn't have the MVP awards that Morenz did though.

As far as Yzerman's 155 point season, that kind of number is impressive regardless of era. Only 16 times has any player reached the 150 mark, and only 3 of those was by someone not named Gretzky or Lemieux. When comparing it to Nicholls' season? Keep in mind that he scored 70(!) goals that year. Only eight players have ever done that. That 155 points was an incredibly impressive peak, but it wasn't a one season deal. Stevie Y had six straight 100 point seasons including a 137 and a 127 point season.

Sakic didnt have 6 consecutive 100 point seasons, but he  had six 100 point seasons, while still being a tremendous two way player. After Stevie Y changed his game, he never hit 100 points again.

Also, Joe sakic has the much more impressive individual hardware, as well as being the better playoff performer. 

[ScottM]

Sakic didnt have 6 consecutive 100 point seasons, but he  had six 100 point seasons, while still being a tremendous two way player. After Stevie Y changed his game, he never hit 100 points again.

Also, Joe sakic has the much more impressive individual hardware, as well as being the better playoff performer. 

 

I'm surprised you don't chalk the first three 100-point seasons for Sakic to simply to having been in the highest scoring era. After all, they were all under 110, and with the way you've talked about that era, I'm not sure those count, especially considering the comments about Yzerman's 155 points and Nicholls' 150 points. Oh, btw, you said that if Gretzky and Lemiuex were taken out of the conversation, Yzerman would have only led th league in scoring once. That's true, but give him the same benefit of the doubt to Sakic, and he still never leads the league in points.

 

As for hardware, it's true that Sakic has a Hart and Yzerman doesn't, but would Sakic have won a Hart if he had to contend with the likes of Gretzky and Lemieux? No way. Yzerman did, however, win a Pearson over the two of them. Taking all of the details into consideration, I'd say MVP seasons. Let's look at style of play now. Yzerman shifted out of necessity thanks to injuries, and managed to remain highly effective. Yzerman won a Selke and Sakic didn't. Sakic finished second once and that was his only top five finish. Yzerman had three top five finished in addition to his win. What about playoffs? Both were outstanding in the playoffs. Sakic was a slightly better scorer statistically, but Yzerman had more overall success, winning three Cups to Sakic's two. Both had one Conn Smythe Trophy. The only other trophies either won were a Lady Byng for Sakic, and a Masterton for Yzerman. I don't really but much stock into either of those. Hardware? It's not really that much different, and taking all details into consideration, I think I'll take Yzerman. Besides, if you total up the number of individual trophies each won, you'll find that it's four apiece. Yzerman won a Pearson, Selke, Conn Smythe and Masterton. Sakic won a Hart, Pearson, Conn Smythe, and Lady Byng. The playoffs are a matter of perspective, especially when you consider the injuries Yzerman played through in some of his playoff seasons. He put up 23 points in 23 playoff games in almost no cartilage in his right knee.

 

Personally, I don't really combine the comparison all that close when taking the whole package into consideration. I give Yzerman an edge on both offensive and defensive prowess. Maybe a slight playoff advantage to Sakic, but that's a close call, and I'm not so sure. Leadership? Yzerman, no question. Yes, he missed some fairly significant time to injuries in some seasons, but he played through things that almost NO ONE would have played through, and showed a determination and will to win rivaled by few.

[JagerMeister]

I'm surprised you don't chalk the first three 100-point seasons for Sakic to simply to having been in the highest scoring era. After all, they were all under 110, and with the way you've talked about that era, I'm not sure those count, especially considering the comments about Yzerman's 155 points and Nicholls' 150 points. Oh, btw, you said that if Gretzky and Lemiuex were taken out of the conversation, Yzerman would have only led th league in scoring once. That's true, but give him the same benefit of the doubt to Sakic, and he still never leads the league in points.

 

As for hardware, it's true that Sakic has a Hart and Yzerman doesn't, but would Sakic have won a Hart if he had to contend with the likes of Gretzky and Lemieux? No way. Yzerman did, however, win a Pearson over the two of them. Taking all of the details into consideration, I'd say MVP seasons. Let's look at style of play now. Yzerman shifted out of necessity thanks to injuries, and managed to remain highly effective. Yzerman won a Selke and Sakic didn't. Sakic finished second once and that was his only top five finish. Yzerman had three top five finished in addition to his win. What about playoffs? Both were outstanding in the playoffs. Sakic was a slightly better scorer statistically, but Yzerman had more overall success, winning three Cups to Sakic's two. Both had one Conn Smythe Trophy. The only other trophies either won were a Lady Byng for Sakic, and a Masterton for Yzerman. I don't really but much stock into either of those. Hardware? It's not really that much different, and taking all details into consideration, I think I'll take Yzerman. Besides, if you total up the number of individual trophies each won, you'll find that it's four apiece. Yzerman won a Pearson, Selke, Conn Smythe and Masterton. Sakic won a Hart, Pearson, Conn Smythe, and Lady Byng. The playoffs are a matter of perspective, especially when you consider the injuries Yzerman played through in some of his playoff seasons. He put up 23 points in 23 playoff games in almost no cartilage in his right knee.

 

Personally, I don't really combine the comparison all that close when taking the whole package into consideration. I give Yzerman an edge on both offensive and defensive prowess. Maybe a slight playoff advantage to Sakic, but that's a close call, and I'm not so sure. Leadership? Yzerman, no question. Yes, he missed some fairly significant time to injuries in some seasons, but he played through things that almost NO ONE would have played through, and showed a determination and will to win rivaled by few.

Steve Yzerman had his prime during the high scoring 80s, while Sakic was merely a rookie during his only two 80s seasons, and he had 100 points in the 80s once btw.

despite all of this though, Joe Sakic still has a higher overall career PPG than Yzerman, even though Yzerman had 7 seasons during the 80s.

This is probably because, while Steve Yzerman had the higher offensive peak, Joe Sakic had a longer prime and aged better.

And for me, Prime>Peak 

Here are their point, finishes.

 

Steve Yzerman

 

Points 

1988-89 NHL 155 (3)

1989-90 NHL 127 (3)

1990-91 NHL 108 (7)

1991-92 NHL 103 (7)

1992-93 NHL 137 (4)

1999-00 NHL 79 (10)

Career NHL 1755 (7)

 

Points Per Game 

1987-88 NHL 1.59 (4)

1988-89 NHL 1.94 (3)

1989-90 NHL 1.61 (4)

1990-91 NHL 1.35 (7)

1991-92 NHL 1.30 (9)

1992-93 NHL 1.63 (5)

1993-94 NHL 1.41 (6)

Career NHL 1.16 (18)

 

 

 

Joe Sakic

 

Points 

1989-90 NHL 102 (10)

1990-91 NHL 109 (6)

1994-95 NHL 62 (4)

1995-96 NHL 120 (3)

1998-99 NHL 96 (5)

1999-00 NHL 81 (8)

2000-01 NHL 118 (2)

2001-02 NHL 79 (5)

2003-04 NHL 87 (2)

2006-07 NHL 100 (6)

Career NHL 1641 (9)

 

Points Per Game 

1990-91 NHL 1.36 (6)

1991-92 NHL 1.36 (6)

1994-95 NHL 1.32 (5)

1995-96 NHL 1.46 (5)

1998-99 NHL 1.32 (3)

1999-00 NHL 1.35 (2)

2000-01 NHL 1.44 (3)

2003-04 NHL 1.07 (7)

2006-07 NHL 1.22 (8)

Career NHL 1.19 (13)

[ScottM]

@JagerMeister My point is simply that it seems that every time someone references a great season someone had in the 80's or early 90's, you seem to dismiss it by saying it was the highest scoring era, but didn't do that with Sakic's early years. Yzerman had the highest scoring season in history outside of Gretzky or Lemieux, and you seemingly dismissed it with that rationale and because someone else had a ridiculously good 70 goal season.

 

Anyway, I made my points in my last post, and it still makes my case. It's not even close in my mind.

[JagerMeister]

@JagerMeister My point is simply that it seems that every time someone references a great season someone had in the 80's or early 90's, you seem to dismiss it by saying it was the highest scoring era, but didn't do that with Sakic's early years. Yzerman had the highest scoring season in history outside of Gretzky or Lemieux, and you seemingly dismissed it with that rationale and because someone else had a ridiculously good 70 goal season.

 

Anyway, I made my points in my last post, and it still makes my case. It's not even close in my mind.

Look.... I am completely fine with you thinking Yzerman is better than Sakic, they both have good arguments over each other, but i heavily disagree with the last statement... because it is, in fact, close.

Joe Sakic has an Mvp, Conn Smythe, and a pearson.

Steve Yzerman has a pearson, Conn smythe and a selke.

 

Sakic's per game stats are gpg 0.45, apg 0.74, ppg 1.19

Yzermans are gpg 0.46, apg 0.70, ppg 1.16

 

and then, clearly Sakic was better statistically but then take into consideration some injuries Yzerman went through and then its closer.

 

Im not really sure how you can say its not even close in my mind.

Also, serious question. Do you think a prime Yzerman would have more hart votes in the 90s? Besides a prime Gretzky and Lemieux, I would say there was  far more impressive competition in all around position. Other hart candidates would be Messier, Jagr, Hasek, Lemieux, Bourque, chelios, Roy....i could go on...

[ScottM]

Look.... I am completely fine with you thinking Yzerman is better than Sakic, they both have good arguments over each other, but i heavily disagree with the last statement... because it is, in fact, close.

Joe Sakic has an Mvp, Conn Smythe, and a pearson.

Steve Yzerman has a pearson, Conn smythe and a selke.

 

Sakic's per game stats are gpg 0.45, apg 0.74, ppg 1.19

Yzermans are gpg 0.46, apg 0.70, ppg 1.16

 

and then, clearly Sakic was better statistically but then take into consideration some injuries Yzerman went through and then its closer.

 

Im not really sure how you can say its not even close in my mind.

Also, serious question. Do you think a prime Yzerman would have more hart votes in the 90s? Besides a prime Gretzky and Lemieux, I would say there was  far more impressive competition in all around position. Other hart candidates would be Messier, Jagr, Hasek, Lemieux, Bourque, chelios, Roy....i could go on...

 

By definition, you actually can't dispute the statement you bolded, because I said that in my mind, it's not close. In effect, disputing that is saying that I'm wrong about what my own opinion is. Anyway, down to the meat of the discussion.

 

With a points per game difference of 0.03, you're definitely splitting hairs statistically. Yzerman played for 22 seasons. Sakic played 20. They overlapped for 17 seasons. It's really pretty hard to argue them as players from different eras for high-scoring vs. low scoring eras to make a significant difference. But even if I conceded that point, the fact that Yzerman played with the nagging injuries for several years would have had a significant impact on his PPG for those years.

 

There are some things that can't be disputed because they are facts. One is that, as I've already said, Yzerman had the highest scoring season of anyone outside of Gretzky and Lemiuex. Sakic never won a scoring title, and if, as you said, we erased Gretzky and Lemieux, he still wouldn't. Yzerman had two 60+ goal seasons. That's only been done by 8 players. Forget about eras when you're talking about something like that, because that's a mark of a great goal scorer. No matter what era you're in, that's highly impressive. If it were so easy to score 60 goals in the "high-scoring 80's" (considering 1979-80-1988-89 to be the 80's), everyone would have done it. They didn't. Only eight players did. If you don't count Gretzky, Lemieux, and Bossy, who obviously dominate it, it only happened six times period. Point being, that while the higher scoring rate would have made some difference, it doesn't account for all of it. I think Sakic would have hit 60 goals once if you move his 2000-01 season back, but two times would be a stretch. I give Yzerman a bit of an edge on offense.

 

My point on defense from earlier is what it is. I take Yzerman hands down on defense. Both played on teams that were loaded with talent. Sakic does look a little better statistically, but Yzerman looks a lot better at leadership. Again, I take Yzerman. I take Yzerman for just plain grit too. How many players would have played through what he did? Few, I'd imagine.

 

Yes, I take Yzerman easily. Again, in my mind, it's not that close. Anyway, we're spinning our wheels now since I'm just repeating the same things I've already said,

 

To answer your question, if you move Yzerman's peak into the 90's, yes, I do think he gets more Hart votes. Who finished ahead of him in 1988-89? Gretzky and Lemieux, of course.

[JagerMeister]

By definition, you actually can't dispute the statement you bolded, because I said that in my mind, it's not close. In effect, disputing that is saying that I'm wrong about what my own opinion is. Anyway, down to the meat of the discussion.

 

With a points per game difference of 0.03, you're definitely splitting hairs statistically. Yzerman played for 22 seasons. Sakic played 20. They overlapped for 17 seasons. It's really pretty hard to argue them as players from different eras for high-scoring vs. low scoring eras to make a significant difference. But even if I conceded that point, the fact that Yzerman played with the nagging injuries for several years would have had a significant impact on his PPG for those years.

 

There are some things that can't be disputed because they are facts. One is that, as I've already said, Yzerman had the highest scoring season of anyone outside of Gretzky and Lemiuex. Sakic never won a scoring title, and if, as you said, we erased Gretzky and Lemieux, he still wouldn't. Yzerman had two 60+ goal seasons. That's only been done by 8 players. Forget about eras when you're talking about something like that, because that's a mark of a great goal scorer. No matter what era you're in, that's highly impressive. If it were so easy to score 60 goals in the "high-scoring 80's" (considering 1979-80-1988-89 to be the 80's), everyone would have done it. They didn't. Only eight players did. If you don't count Gretzky, Lemieux, and Bossy, who obviously dominate it, it only happened six times period. Point being, that while the higher scoring rate would have made some difference, it doesn't account for all of it. I think Sakic would have hit 60 goals once if you move his 2000-01 season back, but two times would be a stretch. I give Yzerman a bit of an edge on offense.

 

My point on defense from earlier is what it is. I take Yzerman hands down on defense. Both played on teams that were loaded with talent. Sakic does look a little better statistically, but Yzerman looks a lot better at leadership. Again, I take Yzerman. I take Yzerman for just plain grit too. How many players would have played through what he did? Few, I'd imagine.

 

Yes, I take Yzerman easily. Again, in my mind, it's not that close. Anyway, we're spinning our wheels now since I'm just repeating the same things I've already said,

 

To answer your question, if you move Yzerman's peak into the 90's, yes, I do think he gets more Hart votes. Who finished ahead of him in 1988-89? Gretzky and Lemieux, of course.

 

 

 

 

 

Seventieslord's Definitive Objective Comparison and Analysis of the careers of Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman

Sakic vs. Yzerman is bound to be a popular debate in the upcoming years. I thought of a multitude of categories to compare Yzerman and Sakic in, and naturally some are more important than others, but I wanted to be as complete as possible. Where applicable, I have accounted for the unfair interference of the generational talents Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux. This did affect Yzerman's place in hockey's pecking order, but, make no mistake - it affected Sakic too.

Offense, Regular Season:

Goal-scoring: The only way to fairly judge a player's goal-scoring prowess across history, is to look at where he ranked in the league season to season. Generally I speak the language of top-10 finishes, but since I wanted to be complete, I have extended the study to include all finishes in the top-15. So, here are each players' top-15 finishes in goals:

Yzerman: 2, 2, 3, 6, 6, 6, 11.

Sakic: 2, 5, 6, 6, 10, 15.

I like to eliminate the identical finishes to break down who did better. So, remove a 2 and two 6's from each side and you're left with:

Yzerman: 2, 3, 6, 11.

Sakic: 5, 10, 15.

Safe to say that Yzerman has been a better goal-scorer over time.

If you remove Gretzky and Lemieux from the equation and pretend they never existed, here's where they would have placed:

Yzerman: 2, 2, 2, 5, 5, 6, 11.

Sakic: 2, 4, 6, 6, 10, 14.

Playmaking: Same thing. Top-15 finishes:

Yzerman: 3, 3, 7, 7, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15.

Sakic: 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 11, 12.

Eliminating equal finishes (3, 3, 11), we're left with:

Yzerman: 7, 7, 10, 13, 14, 15.

Sakic: 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12.

Sakic is definitely the superior playmaker.

For fun, let's eliminate the freaks of nature again.

Yzerman: 1, 1, 6, 6, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14.

Sakic: 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 10, 10, 10, 15.

Yzerman could have led the NHL in assists twice if Gretz and Mario ceased to exist. But even with that, Sakic has him beaten 6-2 in top-5's and 11-6 in top-10's.

Point production:

Yzerman: 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10, 13.

Sakic: 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8, 10, 14.

Eliminating the identicals (3, 4, 10), we're left with:

Yzerman: 3, 7, 7, 13.

Sakic: 2, 2, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8, 14.

Easy edge to Sakic.

Eliminating Gretz and Lemieux:

Yzerman: 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 10, 11.

Sakic: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 8, 8, 12.

I haven't done the eliminations at this stage in goals and assists, but let's eliminate the identical 1, 2, 3, and 5.

Yzerman: 6, 10, 11.

Sakic: 4, 5, 5, 5, 8, 8, 12.

You could say Yzerman's 6, 10, 11 could cancel out Sakic's 8, 8, 12, basically meaning Sakic has done everything Yzerman has done, PLUS 4th, 5th, 5th, and 5th place points finishes, even after accounting for Gretzky and Lemieux.

*If you're really perceptive, you might have noticed Sakic was credited with a scoring title with Gretzky and Lemieux eliminated, though he never finished as runner-up to either of them. The reason is Mario Lemieux's 2000-01 comeback. Everyone knows that Mario propelled Jagr to first in the scoring race. Jagr was languishing in mediocrity before Mario came back, and it's widely accepted that Lemieux earned an assist on that Art Ross. No Lemieux = Art Ross for Sakic.

Longevity of regular season offense:

Simple calculation - number of seasons between each player's first and last top-10 finish in goals, assists and points, as well as top-5 finishes.

Yzerman: Top-10 in goals over a span of 6 seasons

Sakic: Top-10 in goals over a span of 14 seasons

Yzerman: Top-10 in assists over a span of 11 seasons

Sakic: Top-10 in assists over a span of 15 seasons

Yzerman: Top-10 in points over a span of 12 seasons

Sakic: Top-10 in points over a span of 17 seasons

Yzerman: Top-5 in goals over a span of 3 seasons

Sakic: Top-5 in goals over a span of 6 seasons

Yzerman: Top-5 in assists over a span of 9 seasons

Sakic: Top-5 in assists over a span of 10 seasons

Yzerman: Top-5 in points over a span of 5 seasons

Sakic: Top-5 in points over a span of 10 seasons

Sakic's span is greater than Yzerman's in all six comparisons.

Offense, Playoffs

There will be no elimination of Gretzky and Lemieux for two reasons: 1) their effect on these two players' playoff rankings are fairly minimal, and 2) You have to advance to place high in the playoff rankings, and Gretzky and Lemieux are no longer individuals once the playoffs begin - it's still up to their teams to advance far enough for them to make the leaderboard.

Goal-scoring:

As usual, top-15 finishes:

Yzerman: 4, 8, 12, 12, 12.

Sakic: 1, 1, 2, 8, 10, 10, 12.

For lack of a better term, Sakic PWNS yzerman in this category. After eliminating 4, 8, and 12 from each side, we're left with:

Yzerman: 12, 12.

Sakic: 1, 1, 2, 10, 10.

Sakic is a FAR more accomplished playoff goal-scorer, completely turning the tables on the regular season gap, and then some.

Playmaking:

Yzerman: 1, 2, 7, 8, 15.

Sakic: 1, 2, 3, 4, 8.

Again, another clear victory for Sakic, because as you can see, after eliminating 1, 2, and 8:

Yzerman: 7, 15.

Sakic: 3, 4.

Point Production:

Yzerman: 1, 2, 6, 12, 12, 13.

Sakic: 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 14.

Another clear victory for Sakic. After eliminating 1 and 2:

Yzerman: 6, 12, 12, 13.

Sakic: 1, 3, 4, 14.

Leading team in playoff goals or points:

You can't advance every single season. To be as fair as possible, I counted the number of times each player led (or tied for the lead) in playoff goals or points on their team.

Yzerman led his team in playoff goals 7 times, and points 9 times.

Sakic led his team in playoff goals 7 times, and points 8 times.

In other words, Yzerman did it one more time, but his total is inflated by two seasons (1984 and 1985) in which he led the Wings in both goals and points in 3 and 4-game preliminary round losses. Given that, I'm calling this even.

Conclusion: Sakic's playoff offense has beaten that of Yzerman at every turn.

Career Per-Game Averages, Regular Season and Playoffs:

Normally I don't bother with stuff like this, but these two players are similar in style and played careers that overlapped by 17 seasons. 

Regular season GPG, APG, PPG:

Yzerman: .46 .70 1.16

Sakic: .45 .74 1.19

Sakic has Yzerman beaten in points and assists, and is right with him in goals. However, there is more to it than that. The years in which their careers did not overlap show an even greater difference. Yzerman played 5 seasons in the wide-open 1980's before Sakic arrived. NHL goal scoring was at 3.79 GPG during these 5 years. In the three seasons (including this year) that Sakic has played in an Yzerman-less NHL, goal scoring has been at 2.79 GPG. Sakic is clearly at a disadvantage because of eras, but still comes out on top.

Playoff GPG, APG, PPG:

Yzerman: .36 .58 .94

Sakic: .49 .60 1.09

Sakic has Yzerman beaten in all three categories in the playoffs. This is an extremely decisive edge too, when you consider that Sakic played his first playoff game in 1993 when the wide-open era was coming to an end. By this time Yzerman had played in 50 playoff games, scoring 55 points from 1984-1992. He scored 130 in his final 146 playoff games (0.89), while Sakic scored 178 in 162 games during that same time (1.10).

Easy edge to Sakic, before you consider disrepancies due to era.

Clutch play:

For obvious reasons, only individual playoff achievements should count here. For simplicity, all I can really do is look at GWG and OTG.

- Yzerman has 12 career playoff GWG in 196 GP. (.06/GP)

- Sakic has 19 career playoff GWG in 172 GP. (.11/GP)

In other words, Sakic has been nearly twice as likely to score the game winner in his playoff games. Sakic is 4th all-time in playoff GWG.

- Yzerman has 1 career playoff OT goal.

- Sakic has 8 career playoff OT goals, which is two more than anyone else has in NHL history.

Easy edge to Sakic.

Clean Play:

Both these guys play a clean, hard game. The fewer penalties you take, the more often you can be on the ice helping your team and the less often your team has to kill a penalty.

Yzerman: .61 PIM/GP.

Sakic: .45 PIM/GP.

That works out to 50 and 37 PIM per 82 games. It's not a huge difference, but this means that in an average season, Detroit had to kill 6-7 more Yzerman penalties than Quebec/Colorado had to to for Sakic.

Edge to Sakic, though I admit it is small.

Durability:

I calculated durability in three ways: Percentage of games missed, percentage of games missed in 12 prime years, and percentage of playoff games missed.

% of games missed in career:

Yzerman: 13.8%

Sakic: 10.8%

% of games missed in 12 prime years (age 21 through 32)

Yzerman: 6%

Sakic: 9%

% of playoff games missed in career:

Yzerman: 13.7% (31 games)

Sakic 1.7% (3 games)

Sakic takes two of three categories, including the most important one.

Awards:

Looking simply at who won what and who didn't, is too simplistic. Since we have access to all old voting records for awards, we can take a look at how these guys did over the years. I'll go over the three awards most pertinent to these two players: The Hart Trophy as league MVP, The Selke Trophy as the top defensive forward, and the postseason All-Star Team position at Centre.

Both players have a well-deserved Conn Smythe Trophy as playoff MVP, and a Lester Pearson award as the players' MVP. They all cancel eachother out. Since voting records are not available for these awards, we will never know who was a runner-up or finalist for these awards and how many times. So the discussion about these awards ends here.

Hart:

Here are each players' Hart Trophy voting record:

Yzerman: 3, 4, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 13.

Sakic: 1, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 14, 14, 15. 

Quite close. Sakic is the only one to have won the award. Eliminating identical finishes 7, 7, 7, 8, you're left with:

Yzerman: 3, 4, 8, 13.

Sakic: 1, 7, 14, 14, 15.

Amazingly close. But Yzerman's prime was blocked by the primes of the freaks. Eliminate Gretzky and Lemieux and you've got:

Yzerman: 1, 2, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8, 13.

Sakic: 1, 6, 6, 7, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15.

Eliminate identical finishes 1, 6, 6, 7, 8, 13, and you're left with:

Yzerman: 2, 5.

Sakic: 7, 14, 15.

Two high finishes versus three moderate finishes. A very tight race, to be sure. I'd give a slight edge to Yzerman, though.

Selke: 

Yzerman: 1, 3, 4, 5, 9, 11.

Sakic: 2, 9, 10, 13, 15, 15.

I'm not going to eliminate identicals here becauase then we'd be just eliminating a 9. Both guys have six top-15 finishes, but Yzerman has five top-10s to Sakic's three, and four top-5's to Sakic's 1. Plus he won the Selke and Sakic didn't. Definite edge in Selke voting goes to Yzerman.

All-Star team: A 1 or a 2 means he was actually voted to the 1st or 2nd all-star team, a 3-10 means he earned votes but was not top-2.

Yzerman: 1, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 6, 10.

Sakic: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 6, 7.

Eliminate the 1, 3, 3, 4, 4, and 6, and you're left with:

Yzerman: 5, 6, 10.

Sakic: 1, 1, 4, 4, 7.

Looks to be an easy edge for Yzerman. Two more top-15s, Three more top-10s, and three more top-5s, plus three berths on the first team. But, remember there were healthy freaks back then and we must consider that. Eliminating The Great one and Le Magnifique:

Yzerman: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9.

Sakic: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 6.

After eliminating identicals again, (1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6), we have:

Yzerman: 2, 9.

Sakic: 1, 3, 4, 4.

Sakic has a clear edge on Yzerman in All-Star team voting even after completely eliminating the Gretzky/Lemieux effect.

Team Success:

We can't hold them entirely responsible for their team's failures or completely anoint them their team's sole reason for victory. But, it's clear that these two greats had a lot to do with their teams' successes over the years. Early in their careers, they were not the captain of their team and I think it's only fair that we limit this to seasons after they became captains. A captain should be able to provide the leadership to prevent them from losing a series they should win, and of course getting them through a series that they had no business winning would be nice too. A "better" team is one that had 10+ points more than Sakic/Yzerman's team, a "worse" team is one that had 10+ points less. All other teams are "even" teams.

Yzerman's playoff series W/L record

vs. Better Teams: 1-3 (.250)

vs. Even Teams: 6-3 (.667)

vs. Worse Teams: 18-9 (.667) - Failures in 89, 94, 95, 96, 00, 01, 03, 04, 06.

Total: 26-15 (.634)

Sakic's playoff series W/L record

vs. Better Teams: 3-3 (.500)

vs. Even Teams: 7-4 (.636)

vs. Worse Teams: 9-4 (.692) - Failures in 95, 97, 98, 03.

Total: 19-11 (.633)

Very, very similar. What I see a difference in, is that Sakic has been able to lift his team to victory three times over teams Colorado shouldn't have beaten, while Yzerman could only do this once. Yzerman's wings also choked against an inferior team 9 times while Sakic's Nords/Avs choked just 4 times.

Head To Head:

What about head to head matchups between these players? Detroit and Colorado met five times in the playoffs - 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002. Colorado won 3 of these 5 matchups, and 17 of the 30 games. In addition, Detroit's regular season point differential versus Colorado in these five seasons was +27, -13, -8, +12, and +17, for an average of +8. Detroit was favoured to win more often, but won less often. For winning more often when being expected to win less often, Sakic gets the edge.

Cups/Finals appearances:

Let's not forget two other simple things, though - Yzerman has been to the finals two more times than Sakic, and won the cup one more time than Sakic.

Playing on Poor Teams:

Both players played on good teams for the majority of their careers. However, for short portions of ther careers, mostly at the beginning, Sakic and Yzerman had the misfortune of playing on some bad squads. Each played four seasons where their team had 70 points or less. For Sakic, it was his first four seasons. For Yzerman, it was his first three seasons and 1990. Sakic's Nordiques' point totals were 61, 31, 46, and 52. Yzerman's wings had 69, 66, 40, and 70.

During these periods of futility, both players were their team's main bright spot. Who shone more while languishing on a bad team?

Yzerman:

1984: Did not place top-15 in anything.

1985: 13th in assists.

1986: Did not place top-15 in anything. (was injured for 29 games but his per-game averages wouldn't have put him near the leaderboard either way)

1990: 2nd in goals, 10th in assists, 3rd in points.

Sakic:

1989: Did not place top-15 in anything.

1990: 12th in assists, 10th in points.

1991: 6th in goals, 11th in assists, 6th in points.

1992: 9th in assists, 14th in points despite missing 11 games.

Conclusion: Sakic had 7 top-15 finishes in the three categories during his team's four worst years. Yzerman had 4. Sakic's Nordiques averaged 49 points in these seasons - Yzerman's wings averaged 61. Sakic clearly did better while on worse teams.

International Play:

Don't forget international play. Half the games are elimination games, and every player on the ice is highly skilled. Let's look at their individual and team successes.

Non-Best on Best:

Individual:

Yzerman: 44 Pts in 35 games in 4 tournaments. Top Forward and 1st All-Star Team of 1990 World Championships.

Sakic: 22 Pts in 25 games in 3 tournaments. No individual accolades.

Team:

Yzerman: WJC Bronze (1983), World Championship Bronze, Bronze, Gold (1985, 1989, 1990)

Sakic: World Championship Bronze, Gold (1991, 1994)

Best-On-Best:

Individual:

Yzerman: 11 Pts in 22 games in 4 tournaments. No individual accolades.

Sakic: 23 points in 30 games in 5 tournaments. Top forward and 1st All-Star Team of 2002 Olympics.

Team:

Yzerman: 1997 World Cup Silver, 2002 Olympic Gold.

Sakic: 1997 World Cup Silver, 2002 Olympic Gold, 2004 World Cup Gold.

Summary: Yzerman appears better in the small tournaments - He played in one more tournament, had more games, more points, more points per game, an individual accolade, and four medals to Sakic's two. Sakic, likewise, has the edge in best-on-best games. More tournaments, more games, more points, more points per game, was the Olympic MVP, and has one more team title than Yzerman. Given that the best-on-best tournaments are, oh, I'd say, about 10 times as important as the other tournaments, I have to give Sakic the edge here.

Intangibles:

Basically, don't give me this nonsense. Intangibles aren't nonsense; they're real. But show me a quote about Joe Sakic's intestinal fortitude, winning attitude, desire, heart, will to win, team-first philosophy, and I can find a quote about Yzerman that says the same thing. Like the Smythe and Pearson, they cancel eachother out. Trying to claim one is better than the other in this area is about as effective as peeing up a rope.

Summary:

Regular season Goal-scoring: Advantage: Yzerman.

Regular season Playmaking: Advantage: Sakic.

Regular season Point Production: Advantage: Sakic.

Longevity of regular season offense: Advantage: Sakic.

Playoff goal-scoring: Advantage: Sakic.

Playoff playmaking: Advantage: Sakic.

Playoff point production: Advantage: Sakic.

Leading team in playoff goals/points: Even.

Career regular season per-game averages: Advantage: Sakic.

Career playoff per-game averages: Advantage: Sakic.

Clutch play: Advantage: Sakic.

Clean Play: Advantage: Sakic.

Durability: Advantage: Sakic.

Hart Record: Advantage: Yzerman.

Selke Record: Advantage: Yzerman.

All-Star Team Record: Advantage: Sakic.

Total Playoff series W/L record: Even.

Pulling off playoff upsets: Advantage: Sakic.

Not being upset by inferior teams: Advantage: Sakic

Head to head matchups: Advantage: Sakic

Cups and Finals appearances: Advantage: Yzerman

International Play: Advantage: Sakic.

Intangibles: Even.

Sakic's decisive wins:

Clutch play

Regular season point production

Regular season playmaking

Longevity of regular season offense

Playoff goal-scoring

Playoff playmaking

Playoff point production

Career playoff per-game averages

All-Star Team Record

Head to head matchups

Playing on poor teams

Sakic's narrow wins:

Clean Play

Durability

International Play

Career regular season per-game averages

Pulling off playoff upsets

Not being upset by inferior teams

Draws:

Leading team in playoff goals/points

Intangibles

Total Playoff series W/L record

Yzerman's narrow wins:

Regular season Goal-scoring

Hart Record

Cups and finals appearances

Yzerman's decisive win:

Selke record

Conclusion:

Joe Sakic has had a career that is slightly yet decidedly and clearly better than that of Steve Yzerman. He scored wins in 17 of the 24 categories analyzed (11 decisively), while Yzerman won four categories, one decisively. Three categories were declared draws. keep in mind that some categories are much more important than others; however, Sakic wins most of the most important ones.

 

[ruxpin]

The problem (if it's a problem) with top 10 lists, particularly in the center category,is someone good has to be left off.

 

Sakic and Yzerman are very very close.  If Yzerman was listed at #5 and Sakic were left off I'd wonder.  But with Yzerman at #9, Sakic gets left off.  There are only 10 slots.

 

I personally would take Yzerman over Sakic but I'd prefer both if I'm starting a team.  That's a really hard call.

 

But say you put both Yzerman and Sakic on the top 10, who comes off?   Morenz was suggested and that would probably be my call, too, but for me it's based completely on the very "un"-objective fact that he's well before my time and I have nothing to go on but raw numbers.  Not really even video.   But if he stays, who do  you take off?

 

Trottier is #10 on the list above but I wouldn't personally take him off the list for Sakic.  It's close, I suppose.  But captain of a 4-straight Cup champion gets  you on the list for me.

 

Who do you take off?

[Podein25]

The problem with top 10 lists , particularly in the center category,is someone good has to be left off. is that they don't go to 11!

 

[ruxpin]

@Podein25

 

That was funny.

 

And true.

[ScottM]

The problem (if it's a problem) with top 10 lists, particularly in the center category,is someone good has to be left off.

 

Sakic and Yzerman are very very close.  If Yzerman was listed at #5 and Sakic were left off I'd wonder.  But with Yzerman at #9, Sakic gets left off.  There are only 10 slots.

 

I personally would take Yzerman over Sakic but I'd prefer both if I'm starting a team.  That's a really hard call.

 

But say you put both Yzerman and Sakic on the top 10, who comes off?   Morenz was suggested and that would probably be my call, too, but for me it's based completely on the very "un"-objective fact that he's well before my time and I have nothing to go on but raw numbers.  Not really even video.   But if he stays, who do  you take off?

 

Trottier is #10 on the list above but I wouldn't personally take him off the list for Sakic.  It's close, I suppose.  But captain of a 4-straight Cup champion gets  you on the list for me.

 

Who do you take off?

 

This is why I said it wasn't that close for me. Yzerman was clearly above Trottier in my mind. I didn't really feel good about leaving Elmer Lach or Sakic off of the list, but they were both a little behind Trottier. In the light of small margins that we're dealing with, Yzerman vs. Sakic really wasn't close to me. It's not a matter of them being in different universes, but in my mind, there's a clear advantage to Yzerman for the reasons I've laid out multiple times in this thread.

 

@JagerMeister I'm not going to make an argument about that post you quoted, because he's presenting the stats, his view of things and given a well-reasoned opinion based on such. I didn't list all of the stats and my detailed analysis of them, but there's no way I could do that in a post like what I made. You can rest assured that I looked at all of it, and I took it all into consideration. "Joe Sakic has had a career that is slightly yet decidedly and clearly better than that of Steve Yzerman." In other words, he didn't think it was all that close either. Decidedly and clearly mean that he thinks there's a definitive answer, just the same as I do. You don't have to agree with me. I'm fine with that. But by the same token, I don't have to agree with you either. These kinds of list are what they are. They're pure opinion, and they're for fun. I like the discussion, or I wouldn't do them. But again, everyone doesn't have to agree, so let's not expect expect such.

[ScottM]

@Podein25

 

That was funny.

 

And true.

 

That wasn't funny. That was absolutely hilarious. Lol

[J0e Th0rnton]

The problem (if it's a problem) with top 10 lists, particularly in the center category,is someone good has to be left off.

 

Sakic and Yzerman are very very close.  If Yzerman was listed at #5 and Sakic were left off I'd wonder.  But with Yzerman at #9, Sakic gets left off.  There are only 10 slots.

 

I personally would take Yzerman over Sakic but I'd prefer both if I'm starting a team.  That's a really hard call.

 

But say you put both Yzerman and Sakic on the top 10, who comes off?   Morenz was suggested and that would probably be my call, too, but for me it's based completely on the very "un"-objective fact that he's well before my time and I have nothing to go on but raw numbers.  Not really even video.   But if he stays, who do  you take off?

 

Trottier is #10 on the list above but I wouldn't personally take him off the list for Sakic.  It's close, I suppose.  But captain of a 4-straight Cup champion gets  you on the list for me.

 

Who do you take off?

I thought Denis Potvin was the captain?

[ScottM]

I thought Denis Potvin was the captain?

 

Actually, I think you're right. Trottier played a huge role, but I do believe Potvin wore the "C."

[ruxpin]

I thought Denis Potvin was the captain?

That's because you're basing your thoughts on facts. Silly boy.

[JagerMeister]

This is why I said it wasn't that close for me. Yzerman was clearly above Trottier in my mind. I didn't really feel good about leaving Elmer Lach or Sakic off of the list, but they were both a little behind Trottier. In the light of small margins that we're dealing with, Yzerman vs. Sakic really wasn't close to me. It's not a matter of them being in different universes, but in my mind, there's a clear advantage to Yzerman for the reasons I've laid out multiple times in this thread.

 

@JagerMeister I'm not going to make an argument about that post you quoted, because he's presenting the stats, his view of things and given a well-reasoned opinion based on such. I didn't list all of the stats and my detailed analysis of them, but there's no way I could do that in a post like what I made. You can rest assured that I looked at all of it, and I took it all into consideration. "Joe Sakic has had a career that is slightly yet decidedly and clearly better than that of Steve Yzerman." In other words, he didn't think it was all that close either. Decidedly and clearly mean that he thinks there's a definitive answer, just the same as I do. You don't have to agree with me. I'm fine with that. But by the same token, I don't have to agree with you either. These kinds of list are what they are. They're pure opinion, and they're for fun. I like the discussion, or I wouldn't do them. But again, everyone doesn't have to agree, so let's not expect expect such.

I respect your opinion....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

even if its completely wrong....

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  I know Potvin was the captain of the Islanders, but I do have pictures of Trotts clearly with the C on his jersey. Maybe a pre-season game when the pic was snapped, who knows? 

 

 A few fun facts about Trotts. Stevie Y's all time hero was Trotts, and the reason he wore the number 19.

 

 Trotts still has the NHL record for points in a period with 6...4 goals and 2 assists against the NYR in Dec of 83.

[ruxpin]

@jammer2

I swear I have a Topps hockey card with him wearing the C.

But he was never captain and I knew it as soon as Joe said Potvin.

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  Same here...

 

 

[jammer2]

  The only thing I can think of is these shots were taken when either Potvin was injured or a pre season game where he was not dressed...cause the wiki page about Trotts, nothing about captain....he was the Pens captain when Mario was out with injury.