Blow this mess up or stay course!

[murraycraven]

11 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

I'm sorry.  What now? 

 

 

" OTT,MTL,MINN,St LOUIS,SJ ,FLA "

 

 

isn't this the Canadian alphabet, eh?

[murraycraven]

58 minutes ago, Bertmega said:

I wonder if they can sign any of those old timers from the Alumni Game? 

 

The legion line looked light years ahead of the junk out there now. 

 

LOL.... I jokingly said the same thing to my son during the game!!

[Bertmega]

Just now, murraycraven said:

 

LOL.... I jokingly said the same thing to my son during the game!!

Big E still could move for such a big guy. 

 

I just sat there and thought about all the things that could have been if Lindros could have kept his damn head up

[murraycraven]

1 minute ago, Bertmega said:

Big E still could move for such a big guy. 

 

I just sat there and thought about all the things that could have been if Lindros could have kept his damn head up

 

 

I know right!?   He was such a freak of a talent and was a monster on the ice.    Miss those days!

[FD19372]

All I know is this: Hextall needs to realize right now that his core group isn't good enough, and even if every one of the prospects pans out to be a star or close to it, this team is 4 years away from contending with its problems with all 3 phases of the game: offense, defense and goaltending. None stand out, and we wonder why we are stuck in mediocrity.They are a one-line team (much like the 90s teams). I would like to see some of the once untouchable pieces moved, and if it means they go to some loaded team and win a Cup, then so be it. I want players with more speed, and hunger for the puck every night, not the drub, inconsistent nonsense we've watched. The streak was just a smokescreen. That's where I'm afraid this team has peaked.  If a drastic move is needed by trading anyone on the roster besides Simmonds or Provorov, then so be it. Hextall needs to take this bye week and take a long, hard look at where this team is headed and where its ceiling really is. I think we need more players built with speed.

[murraycraven]

20 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Hextall needs to realize right now that his core group isn't good enough, and even if every one of the prospects pans out to be a star or close to it, this team is 4 years away from contending

 

I think you are asking/stating the most important thing here - is the core really good enough to win a cup?   Right now I am on the fence.  I love G but he has been horrible and simply can't score 5 vs 5.   I have said it a thousand times - this team depends on the PP to win games.   The other way to look at it is that Teams can shut down the Flyers easily by focusing on the first line and I think there is some merit to this strategy.  This team is very easy to play against...

 

I am not sure what to think honestly.  If our defensive prospects pan out they will have an incredible defense.  But, it is going to take some time for all of this to come to fruition.   At that point G and Jake are on the downside of their careers making 8+M per year.    

 

It is a tough situation and this is all on Hextall at the moment.   My question to Hextall is:  how long do you think this will take?   That is what I want to know b/c as of right now this team is nowhere near making a push in the playoffs.  If anything I think we have taken a small step back from last year.   

 

Where this Team is now is not where they will be in 3 years - we have prospects.   This Team is on the upswing but right now I think our "suckage" is kind of par for the course in the rebuild.   I have no problems making a trade if the deal were right.   I guess at this point it really is a matter of the core of this team.   

[canoli]

Yeah but that's exactly what we should expect one step up, maybe 2 steps back, then a 3 or 4 ahead...etc. Seriously there's (imo) absolutely no reason to consider moving any of the core guys yet. Sure in 2 seasons we'll see if they've got ebough in the tank for a cup run bc by then our D should be sorted. Till then expect inconsistency of outcome and yes, even of effort. 

[murraycraven]

Just now, canoli said:

Yeah but that's exactly what we should expect one step up, maybe 2 steps back, then a 3 or 4 ahead...etc. Seriously there's (imo) absolutely no reason to consider moving any of the core guys yet. Sure in 2 seasons we'll see if they've got ebough in the tank for a cup run bc by then our D should be sorted. Till then expect inconsistency of outcome and yes, even of effort. 

 

this is kind of the way I am thinking too...   Never thought this Team would make the playoffs this year anyway.   They are a veryt flawed roster right now and it is going to take time.   I think most people are miffed at the lack of emotion that seems to be taking place and rightfully so...   

[King Knut]

19 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 

I think alot of us are at this point. That may be due to the fact that Hakstol is trying to win with what he has been given to him.  I'm not including Prov or TK in the conversation at this point simply because they are 19 yr old 1st year rookies. 

 

I do think we have a problem with Coots and where to play him.  Many on this board, including myself kept holding on to the thought that he would progress to a scoring 2C.  In reality that is not the case for a myriad of reasons that have been discussed ad nauseam on here.  As has been mentioned above, Coots is a very good 3C and is very good at the PK.  I agree though, that is not what the scouting reporting had him when he was drafted.  So what does Hakstol do???  I think by tinkering around with lines, I hope he is trying to evaluate what each player brings to the ice.  However, you can't do that when you keep juggling the lines around nor when the player is giving less than 100% on the ice on game night.

 

I am hoping once some dead weight is jettisoned and the expansion draft has come and gone, that a clearer vision begins to emerge.  We have to give H & H (Hakstol and Hey) some some time, but how much time is an unknown.  For some fans they want instant improved results and gratification and for the time being I don't thing that is going to happen anytime soon.

 

I do however expect 100% effort even when you are getting your collective asses handed to you.  By some accounts, and if true that Giroux was not back checking hard on that one Cap goal, that IMO, speaks volumes as far as his effort goes and how can you then put any stock in the fact that he is supposed to be the team "Captain".  When your team "Captain" is not giving his 100% in game what does that translate to the younger players.

 

I am by no mean advocating that Hexy go out and trade Giroux, however, as a Captain he needs to take a good hard look at himself in the mirror.  Now to be fair, I have no idea how he leads in the locker room since none of us are privy to that type of inside info.

 

One thing is very certain right now....this team is a mess..........

 

Here's the thing about Giroux (and I'm gonna take hell for this).

The stakes just don't seem to be there.  

I mentioned this a while back in my fears about them missing the playoffs this year and what that would do to their mind sets, and I got pushback, but I truly believe it. 

These guys, and Giroux in particular have had to make themselves okay with losing too much.  They've had to reconcile themselves with that too often.  They're used to it.  It's not as disgusting and gut wrenching an experience for them anymore.

 

Remember when he was a rookie and Giroux screwed up against the Penguins and it probably cost them the game?  I remember reading about how Claude was so mortified that Stevens had to talk him down after the game instead of reading him the riot act for screwing up.   Claude was already reading himself the riot act.  But that was 20 year old Claude.  He's had 6 straight years of failures to get used to that feeling.  Do we really think he's going to need the coach to talk him down after he screws up now?

 

Everyone here hates Richards, but that guy, Pronger, Primeau... those dudes would do anything to win.  Maybe Richards got hooked on pills and Pronger was a bit of an arse to his team mates, but those guys ABSOLUTELY HATED LOSING.   It killed them.

 

Can we really say the same of Claude, Jake and Simmer?    Of the three I think Jake and Simmer still seem to have the most fire int heir bellies, but even they seem to be able to reconcile themselves with a bad loss or a missed playoffs when those come.

 

How do you revive that in them?  How do you fill them with the ferocious need to win again?  

 

I don't know.  I really don't know.  My best bet would be to bring in a guy like Justin Williams or Jagr.  The kind of guy that never lost that drive and who has been there before and will probably never be okay with losing.

 

Who else is there like that?  I'd take three of them over the likes of Boyd Gordon, Dale Weise and Chris Vandevelde.  

Gordon and Vandy btw, are what they are.  Weise should really be better than he's showing right now.  That's a big problem.  He had a much better track record over recent years than he's showing this team.  Hexy didn't make a mistake getting him and I don't think he overpaid at all if we'd gotten the guy who played in Montreal the past few seasons (he was a deadline deal to the blackhawks and pretty much played on their bottom line for the deadline and the playoffs, so I can't really refer to that stretch).  But what we're getting ain't that guy.

 

  

 

 

[radoran]

43 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

this is kind of the way I am thinking too...   Never thought this Team would make the playoffs this year anyway.   They are a veryt flawed roster right now and it is going to take time.   I think most people are miffed at the lack of emotion that seems to be taking place and rightfully so...   

 

How "very flawed" is the roster? I think this is the main question of this thread.

 

They have 13 signed for next season with 3 RFAs. 11 guys signed for the year after that.

 

If the roster is, indeed, "very flawed" then it's not really going to change a whole lot for the next two seasons. At that point, Giroux and Voracek will be on the high side of 30 and Simmonds with be a 30-year-old UFA.

 

If they're not going to blow it up - and I don't see a plausible way that they do it without taking HUGE steps backwards - what is needed for this "flawed roster" to "stay the course"?

[hobie]

Philly has 50 points and the sky is falling?

Philly has been slowly building, not rebuilding, drafting and developing d while still a perennial playoff contender yet the sky is falling?

 

I don't think the problem is the roster, I think it's the coaching. 

[King Knut]

13 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

I'm sorry.  What now? 

 

He said that I'm brilliant and my thoughts made a lot of sense to him and Hextall should hire me to help out.

 

Oh and something else I couldn't make out either. 

[King Knut]

7 minutes ago, hobie said:

Philly has 50 points and the sky is falling?

Philly has been slowly building, not rebuilding, drafting and developing d while still a perennial playoff contender yet the sky is falling?

 

I don't think the problem is the roster, I think it's the coaching. 

 

I agree with this to a large degree.  I don't think Hakstol is a bad hockey mind like Berube was, but he seems to expect complete devotion and dedication from these guys despite his seeming craziness with the game plan and the lineup.  

 

This isn't Hoosiers, coach.  You're not making men out of boys.  Most of these guys are professionals who have seen a thing or two.  Even Ghost got farther in the Frozen Four than Hak did.   Giroux has played for 4 NHL coaches now.  I don't know how many Jake and Simmer have had.   

 

These guys have been around the block a bit.  You can't act crazy and expect them to just go with it.  They need Rhyme and Reason.  They need to have some clue as to what's being asked of them.  

 

They need the coach to stop tinkering and experimenting and lay it out for them.  unless it's not really about winning games at this point and he was just full of hot air when he overloaded and fatigued Mason.

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, Bertmega said:

I wonder if they can sign any of those old timers from the Alumni Game? 

 

The legion line looked light years ahead of the junk out there now. 

 

 

Yeah size can make a whole lot of space out there...

[King Knut]

12 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

How "very flawed" is the roster? I think this is the main question of this thread.

 

They have 13 signed for next season with 3 RFAs. 11 guys signed for the year after that.

 

If the roster is, indeed, "very flawed" then it's not really going to change a whole lot for the next two seasons. At that point, Giroux and Voracek will be on the high side of 30 and Simmonds with be a 30-year-old UFA.

 

If they're not going to blow it up - and I don't see a plausible way that they do it without taking HUGE steps backwards - what is needed for this "flawed roster" to "stay the course"?

 

The rosters biggest flaws are on Defense.

And that's not to say they're just not good players and it's not because they're just either too old or too young.
It's because they're too similar and they don't make for good pairings. 

 

THEY NEED A VETERAN ON DEFENSE.  The more and more I think about this Shattenkirk idea, the more it seems like EXACTLY what they need.

 

The guys they have aren't actually bad, but they're not complementary.  Hakstol (and I do have plenty of issues with Dave, but...) Hakstol just can't put together combos that are functional.  There aren't enough combos of guys whose skillets complement each other.

 

In and ideal world you'd put Gudas and Provo together as a top pairing.The problem then becomes that your next two pairings are going to be completely derelict defensively. Do pair these guys properly, you'd have to sit one of Streit, MDZ and Ghost and pair the other two with Schultz and Manning.

 

But they need Mac to get to 40 games (2 games more!) and Schultz just seems to not have anything let in the tank.

 

Next year, Schultz, Streit and MDZ should all be gone.  If they can bring in a vet (doesn't NEED to be Shattenkirk, but he'd be ideal) then they'd truly be set for quite a while.

 

And next year could look like:

Gudas  Provo

Shattenkirk  Ghost

Manning/Morin  Sanheim  (I think you'd flip Travis with someone else if Morin comes up so you don't pair two rookies).

 

With MacDonald in the AHL ready for call up injury replacement duty.  

The pairings would then make more sense and would but much more highly functional.

 

Clean up the defense, make it so three forwards don't end up having to bail out the D every shift and watch how quickly the offense gets smoother and starts driving and controlling play more consistently.   I really think with just ONE addition and three subtractions on defense, this team gets immeasurably better very very quickly.  

 

If you want to go hog wild, sign Scuderi (on a one or two year deal because he's older than the damn hills) or Oduya (who isn't far behind him) to be a responsible vet on the third pairing with Sanheim.  If Shattenkirk is just too much to invest, I'd actually try to get Scuderi AND Oduya to be paired with Ghost and Sanheim for a year or two until Morin's got enough development under his belt.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

TSN’s Trade Bait list is goaltender heavy. But with only Dallas, St. Louis and maybe Calgary would be looking for an upgrade, it is surely a buyer’s market, making Marc-Andre Fleury likely to stick in Pittsburgh for a run at a third Stanley Cup.

Philadelphia’s Steve Mason might be the best value buy for Dallas. He is a pending unrestricted free agent who played his best hockey under current Stars goaltending coach Jeff Reese. With nearly the same number of shots faced (3,000) in both stints, Mason sported a .925 save percentage while Reese was in Philadelphia, but has just a .913 save percentage since Reese’s abrupt departure from the team on March 7, 2015.

 

http://www.tsn.ca/all-eyes-on-the-avs-as-trade-deadline-approaches-1.652111

 

HHHHhhhhhhhhhmmmm not a bad idea but what would come back to Philly. I don't want either of their goaltenders.

[radoran]

@King Knut

 

I agree in large part with your analysis. But unless Shattenkirk gets to FA, you're going to have to give something up to get him, which wouldn't be an insignificant package.

 

If you look at the Flyers' roster (and assets) - what would you, as in "St. Louis", want for Shattenkirk?

 

And, then, what does Shattenkirk get as a contract?

 

I'm not at all opposed to looking at Shattenkirk, but even with him, the pairings you have are really young. And I don't think that, for example, a package of del Zotto and Read springs him to Philly.

[OccamsRazor]

Alright so if i trade Mason to Dallas it would have to center on Roope Hintz 

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=92117

 

 

This kid would be a good fit at left wing and give them their Finn they have been missing...

 

OR

 

Riley Tufte

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=291903

 

 

KId is huge talk about adding size 6-5 and growing....

 

So if i move Mason to Dallas one of these kids need to come the other way...

[King Knut]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

@King Knut

 

I agree in large part with your analysis. But unless Shattenkirk gets to FA, you're going to have to give something up to get him, which wouldn't be an insignificant package.

 

If you look at the Flyers' roster (and assets) - what would you, as in "St. Louis", want for Shattenkirk?

 

And, then, what does Shattenkirk get as a contract?

 

I'm not at all opposed to looking at Shattenkirk, but even with him, the pairings you have are really young. And I don't think that, for example, a package of del Zotto and Read springs him to Philly.

 

 

Yeah, right? therein lies the rub.  I'd hate to give something up for him if we can get him on July 1, but does he make it to July 1 if the Rangers or Caps get him?  

 

Looking at St. Louis, I think what they'd want most would be the likes of Sanheim, Morin, Hagg and Alt.  

They have a lot of money tied up in their existing forwards and D men and they're going to need replenishment as there's no way they can afford to keep Shattenkirk and J Bouw is in his mid 30's.  They're sitting pretty with Pietrangelo though.  If I'm them, I look at the Flyers, I want the D-men of the next 10 years and we've got at least 4, possibly 6.  

 

If I'm them, I want that no matter what team I'm looking at.  

If I'm Hextall, I'm willing to part with Hagg or Alt and a pick.  

 

[murraycraven]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

How "very flawed" is the roster? I think this is the main question of this thread.

 

They have 13 signed for next season with 3 RFAs. 11 guys signed for the year after that.

 

If the roster is, indeed, "very flawed" then it's not really going to change a whole lot for the next two seasons. At that point, Giroux and Voracek will be on the high side of 30 and Simmonds with be a 30-year-old UFA.

 

If they're not going to blow it up - and I don't see a plausible way that they do it without taking HUGE steps backwards - what is needed for this "flawed roster" to "stay the course"?

 

 

Well, I would say the entire defense minus one rookie is flawed right now.   I would keep Gudas as well...

 

The bottom 6... Weise provides nothing right now and is freshly signed to a multi-year deal.  If this is the type of signing that is part of the plan I might have issues w/ the plan.   I like Raffl and Belle but everyone else is meh...   Lube I would keep on the 4th....  Couts is a good 3C wiht defensive talent...

 

Legit scoring 2C

 

Top line winger that can finish

 

Questions surrounding goaltending and the future

 

It is a lot frankly.   I really dont see a change in the next two years.  More-so if the plan is to add from within the club (prospects).       

 

This goes back to one of my earlier posts about how long is Hextall's plan and how far out does this plan go.   You have heavily invested in G and Jake and if you are not going to try and contend by then what is the point of paying them that amount (considering you did not even have to sign one of the players at the time)?  Sooner or later they need to make a deal **if** the plan is to have G and Jake leading the core of this team.  I just really don't see it another way.   

[murraycraven]

29 minutes ago, radoran said:

And, then, what does Shattenkirk get as a contract?

 

He is gonna command more than 8M per year - so we have 3 players making 8+M a year.   That is not very good for salary cap purposes when you are going to have to pay a goalie, pay Ghost, etc.... I just dont see how they can manage taking him on w/out dumping other contracts....  

[murraycraven]

53 minutes ago, King Knut said:

But they need Mac to get to 40 games (2 games more!) and Schultz just seems to not have anything let in the tank.

 

 

this is not directed at you specifically KK but I keep hearing this sentiment.  Does anyone actually believe that he is going to get picked up in the ED or go back to the Phantoms?   I don't....

 

As for Alt he is nothing more than what he is now.   He **might** make a 5/6 dman in the NHL but he is not getting you anything of value in return.   Alt and Haag are not what the blues want.  Teams want our blue-chip type prospects in return:  the likes of Sanheim which is a big price to pay right now.    

 

I would dangle Ghost to see if there is interest but it is going to take a TON to get Shattenkirk here. 

[OccamsRazor]

10 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

 

Yeah, right? therein lies the rub.  I'd hate to give something up for him if we can get him on July 1, but does he make it to July 1 if the Rangers or Caps get him?  

 

Looking at St. Louis, I think what they'd want most would be the likes of Sanheim, Morin, Hagg and Alt.  

They have a lot of money tied up in their existing forwards and D men and they're going to need replenishment as there's no way they can afford to keep Shattenkirk and J Bouw is in his mid 30's.  They're sitting pretty with Pietrangelo though.  If I'm them, I look at the Flyers, I want the D-men of the next 10 years and we've got at least 4, possibly 6.  

 

If I'm them, I want that no matter what team I'm looking at.  

If I'm Hextall, I'm willing to part with Hagg or Alt and a pick.  

 

 

Well I think you could get him for Mason they need a goalie.

 

Jake Allen is struggling and I can't see them letting their playoff lives ride with Carter Hutton.

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

this is not directed at you specifically KK but I keep hearing this sentiment.  Does anyone actually believe that he is going to get picked up in the ED or go back to the Phantoms?   I don't....

 

He's not going to get picked up in the Expansion draft.  That's not the idea.  He's too expensive.  The idea is just to be able to protect whoever they want.  They have to expose someone who meets the requirements, and if they can get Mac to meet the requirements they can expose him and protect the three remaining D men under contract leaving Vegas with the only real option of drafting a forward (if that is Hextall manages to sign a goalie to expose as well), otherwise Vegas will take Stolarz.  And yes... If I'm vegas, I'm definitely taking Stolarz over ANY of the fowards we'd potentially expose.  

 

I do have my fears about Hextall sending him back to the Phantoms though.  Hakstol really seems devoted to using him and I get why.  

 

He's not good, but he's at least capably bad.  Like he's not on the far side of the other blue line when you need him in front of your net out of position.  He's a fairly above average player from the hashes out IMHO, it's just that behind the hashes is where this team needs quality right now, the problem is no one on the roster right now is really going to be any better there than Mac.  

 

It's just the state of affairs.  So yeah... I guess the point is that with all these "think it over and learn" benchings happening, Mac's never been among those.  Maybe now at the very least, he can be.  

[OccamsRazor]

Just now, murraycraven said:

 

 

this is not directed at you specifically KK but I keep hearing this sentiment.  Does anyone actually believe that he is going to get picked up in the ED or go back to the Phantoms?   I don't....

 

 

They need the 2 games so they CAN expose him. No one thinks he will be taken but Flyers have a minium of their salary they MUST expose and those guys have to be under contract for next year to meet it.

 

So that is why Mcdud is playing the games. He'll be waived afterwards I pray.