Ghost is a problem

[fanaticV3.0]

8 minutes ago, DaGreatGazoo said:

Flyers are in a rebuild mode.  Maybe not a full blown rebuild, but a rebuild nonetheless.  They have a 23 year old Dman, who is in his 2nd year as an NHL player, who was 2nd in Rookie of the Year voting last year.  

 

But by ALL means, let's trade him because he's struggling IN HIS SECOND YEAR!

 

For ****'s sake, really???????????????????

 

I think you need to reread this thread, because no one said, "TRADE HIM NOW! TRADE HIM FOR ANYTHING!"

[Bertmega]

Just now, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

 You’re just proving my point even more.

 

We got a kid on the team who looked like he could be something last year. Now granted, I think we all know he was playing out of his mind and cannot sustain that level, but it’s not unreasonable to think he would be a good contributing player for many years to come.  Fast forward to this year and he looks absolutely horrible. He’s not playing well in any way shape or form.

 

And you want to talk about the messenger because you don’t like them and/or what they have to say?  Seems legit.

I have no idea about the messenger. I dislike the station as a whole. I liked it a lot better when they played music instead of berate fans and talk 76'ers and Eagles ad nauseam. Anyhow, I digress.....

 

I think we are arguing the same message, but from perhaps from a different approach. Ghost is not a great player this year, but that is not to say that he won't be effective next season. There is a lot that he needs to work on and I am sure he knows that too.

 

 

[DaGreatGazoo]

So, this isn't advocating trading him?  I can read quite well, thank you.  Stop being so condescending.   

 

"I wouldn't trade him for the sake of trading him, but would not be opposed to dealing him (or including him in a package) for a young forward."

 

" you might have to trade him if it doesn’t straighten out "

[fanaticV3.0]

20 minutes ago, Bertmega said:

I have no idea about the messenger. I dislike the station as a whole. I liked it a lot better when they played music instead of berate fans and talk 76'ers and Eagles ad nauseam. Anyhow, I digress.....

 

I think we are arguing the same message, but from perhaps from a different approach. Ghost is not a great player this year, but that is not to say that he won't be effective next season. There is a lot that he needs to work on and I am sure he knows that too.

 

 

 

That was kind of my point – let’s talk hockey.

 

That is true, but there’s also no guarantee he’s going to get better.

 

Now brace yourself, I’m going to bring up “Martinez” (he is a producer and an analyst , not an intern btw) again. Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my original post, but what really stood out to me is that the guy called this kid struggles after that, and a rookie season. It wasn’t, “Don’t expect those kind of numbers”, “He will be good, but not as good as last year”, he flat out said this kid was going to suck this year. He thinks that people have figured the kid out and I think I agree with him. That’s not a sophomore slump, that having a limited skill set, and that is what concerns me.

 

I am also troubled by the fact that you seemingly can’t scratch him or send him to the minors. The kid seems really soft mentally.

[fanaticV3.0]

24 minutes ago, DaGreatGazoo said:

So, this isn't advocating trading him?  I can read quite well, thank you.  Stop being so condescending.   

 

"I wouldn't trade him for the sake of trading him, but would not be opposed to dealing him (or including him in a package) for a young forward."

 

" you might have to trade him if it doesn’t straighten out "

 

Discussing the possibility of something under a specific set of circumstances and saying it should happen are two different things.

[Podein25]

3 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

He thinks that people have figured the kid out and I think I agree with him. That’s not a sophomore slump, that having a limited skill set, and that is what concerns me.

 

I think these are two different things. The one, that people have figured him out, is a question of whether he can adapt, change, grow, develop what have you. I don't think that's the same thing as saying he has a permanently limited skill set. He's mobile and has great offensive instincts. He just needs to become a more complete player. Which is normal at his age. 

 

My two cents...

[Bertmega]

14 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

That was kind of my point – let’s talk hockey.

 

That is true, but there’s also no guarantee he’s going to get better.

 

Now brace yourself, I’m going to bring up “Martinez” (he is a producer and an analyst , not an intern btw) again. Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my original post, but what really stood out to me is that the guy called this kid struggles after that, and a rookie season. It wasn’t, “Don’t expect those kind of numbers”, “He will be good, but not as good as last year”, he flat out said this kid was going to suck this year. He thinks that people have figured the kid out and I think I agree with him. That’s not a sophomore slump, that having a limited skill set, and that is what concerns me.

 

I am also troubled by the fact that you seemingly can’t scratch him or send him to the minors. The kid seems really soft mentally.

But you could use that argument for anything. You own a stock that's on a tear..... it's going to drop at some point.... You dated a really hot woman in college.... wait for it, she's going to look like a seadonkey one day. See what I am getting at here? Martinez is not breaking the hockey world with his prediction. 

 

 

[fanaticV3.0]

4 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

I think these are two different things. The one, that people have figured him out, is a question of whether he can adapt, change, grow, develop what have you. I don't think that's the same thing as saying he has a permanently limited skill set. He's mobile and has great offensive instincts. He just needs to become a more complete player. Which is normal at his age. 

 

My two cents...

 

If he has a limited skill set – and I do think it is and if at this point, because it’s too soon to say – then I think one led to the other.

[OccamsRazor]

15 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

He just needs to become a more complete player.

 

 

This is it.

 

And he is still young.

 

What would be the difference is if he could hit the net they have have won more games and certainly more goals is what this team needs.

 

I mean despite all his misses and he still 5th on the team with 114 shots on goal. Schenn is 4th with 116.

 

The difference is his shooting percentage...there is only one guy on the whole team who has a worse shooting percentage and that is Gudas with 3%!!!!

 

So that is killing the kid's confidence..he is use to scoring. He can work his way out of this i am mot ready to give up on him.

[fanaticV3.0]

5 minutes ago, Bertmega said:

But you could use that argument for anything. You own a stock that's on a tear..... it's going to drop at some point.... You dated a really hot woman in college.... wait for it, she's going to look like a seadonkey one day. See what I am getting at here? Martinez is not breaking the hockey world with his prediction. 

 

 

 

The kid was a finalist for rookie of the year just last season. He is bad this year. Really bad. He’s not “not as good”, he’s an outright liability this season. This isn’t a guy on the tail end of his career was a shell of his former self. This is a kid who was almost the absolute best at what he could be at that point in his career to downright awful the very next season.  He didn’t go from great to “just” good. He hasn’t scored in almost 30 games. I believe he has the worst plus minus on the team. And he’s about to get scratched again too.  There is nothing outrageous or unfair about pointing any of this out. He is the problem, not me, not a hockey analyst, but he himself.

[JR Ewing]

It's always important to remember two big things about development:

 

-It doesn't necessarily occur in a straight line.

-Defensemen have times where it seems like they're developing by sundial.

 

He's not perfect, (@AJgoal mentioned really important points as well, which I largely agree with), but he's a really good young player, and the easiest thing to do is get down on him when the warts are more visible than at other times. A lot of what's being said about him here isn't anything new, except that now there isn't a disproportionate amount of chances going in, and he's not receiving nearly the goaltending he did last year.

 

29 other GMs would love to have the Flyers problem with him.

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

It's always important to remember two big things about development:

 

-It doesn't necessarily occur in a straight line.

-Defensemen have times where it seems like they're developing by sundial.

 

He's not perfect, (@AJgoal mentioned really important points as well, which I largely agree with), but he's a really good young player, and the easiest thing to do is get down on him when the warts are more visible than at other times. A lot of what's being said about him here isn't anything new, except that now there isn't a disproportionate amount of chances going in, and he's not receiving nearly the goaltending he did last year.

 

29 other GMs would love to have the Flyers problem with him.

 

 

 

 

 

Well said some here just have unreal expectations...

 

 

...and when no norris trophy is in sight during the 2nd season he must be a bust...

 

...Flyers aren't use to developing a Dman and what it takes to make it happen.

[murraycraven]

9 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

The kid was a finalist for rookie of the year just last season. He is bad this year. Really bad. He’s not “not as good”, he’s an outright liability this season. This isn’t a guy on the tail end of his career was a shell of his former self. This is a kid who was almost the absolute best at what he could be at that point in his career to downright awful the very next season.  He didn’t go from great to “just” good. He hasn’t scored in almost 30 games. I believe he has the worst plus minus on the team. And he’s about to get scratched again too.  There is nothing outrageous or unfair about pointing any of this out. He is the problem, not me, not a hockey analyst, but he himself.

 

 

Here is the problem - if we are blaming this entire season all on Ghost then we have bigger problems to deal with.   Has he been bad - no doubt.   But, he is a second year skilled-player on a Team that, on whole, is defensively dysfunctional.   It does not mean the kid is done with and should be sent packing...   he is going through a bad year just like Jake after he got his HUGE payday.   

 

BTW, Martinez isn't Pat Egan is it?  B/c that dude is the biggest tool there is....

[mojo1917]

47 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

If he has a limited skill set – and I do think it is

what's missing other than size ?

That, like speed, can't be taught, the kid skates great. 

his hand-eye is off the charts, he handles the puck +++

what have you seen that makes you say limited skill set ?

[fanaticV3.0]

1 minute ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

Here is the problem - if we are blaming this entire season all on Ghost then we have bigger problems to deal with.   Has he been bad - no doubt.   But, he is a second year skilled-player on a Team that, on whole, is defensively dysfunctional.   It does not mean the kid is done with and should be sent packing...   he is going through a bad year just like Jake after he got his HUGE payday.   

 

BTW, Martinez isn't Pat Egan is it?  B/c that dude is the biggest tool there is....

 

I am not blaming anything other than his own play on him. I never mentioned anything about the team as a whole in this conversation tbh.

 

No, it's Jason Myrtetus. The dude that has a man crush on G and defends him with the same vigor as a teenage girl does a boy band.

[murraycraven]

1 minute ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

I am not blaming anything other than his own play on him. I never mentioned anything about the team as a whole in this conversation tbh.

 

No, it's Jason Myrtetus. The dude that has a man crush on G and defends him with the same vigor as a teenage girl does a boy band.

 

LOL!  I don't listen but I like your description 80)

 

 

[fanaticV3.0]

2 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

what's missing other than size ?

That, like speed, can't be taught, the kid skates great. 

his hand-eye is off the charts, he handles the puck +++

what have you seen that makes you say limited skill set ?

 

He is pretty bad in his own end, don't you think?

[mojo1917]

Just now, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

He is pretty bad in his own end, don't you think?

 

he's struggled, yes.

Is that because of a lack of skill ?

I don't see his own zone struggles as the result of a limited skill set.

I see poor decision making and tentative play, which makes me think he can improve with coaching and experience. 

[fanaticV3.0]

3 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

LOL!  I don't listen but I like your description 80)

 

 

 

He is bad when it comes to G. LOL, I just looked at his twitter right now and wa la – he's defending his Savior. Personally, I wouldn't mind parting ways with him at this point. There is no doubt in my mind that if he ended up on one of the better teams in the league he will flourish, but  not here. He's not a leader.

[murraycraven]

Just now, mojo1917 said:

makes me think he can improve with coaching and experience. 

 

 

I agree....    but can I ask a question that might be unpopular?   Is Hak nothing more than Berube with a slightly better system?

[Podein25]

4 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

He is pretty bad in his own end, don't you think?

 

He evidently is, and perhaps it was masked a fair bit last year.

 

But that's not a "skillset" - it's positioning, it's learning, it's developing new, better, habits. What makes you think he can't learn to be better in his own end, make better, safer choices? I mean, maybe he can't, maybe he's not coachable, or too stubborn or whatever, but it's too early to conclude any of that, because he's 23 or whatever!

[murraycraven]

2 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

He is bad when it comes to G. LOL, I just looked at his twitter right now and wa la – he's defending his Savior. Personally, I wouldn't mind parting ways with him at this point. There is no doubt in my mind that if he ended up on one of the better teams in the league he will flourish, but  not here. He's not a leader.

 

 

I am gonna have to watch that Twitter thread today to see if he fights back.   

[fanaticV3.0]

1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

he's struggled, yes.

Is that because of a lack of skill ?

I don't see his own zone struggles as the result of a limited skill set.

I see poor decision making and tentative play, which makes me think he can improve with coaching and experience. 

 

This is semantics imo. If a player makes good decisions regularly, I would personally say that is a skill. If a player makes bad decisions regularly I would say that that is something he lacks. Can he improve it? I have no idea. It’s not possible by any means. I have no idea what to expect from image year.

[fanaticV3.0]

10 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

He evidently is, and perhaps it was masked a fair bit last year.

 

But that's not a "skillset" - it's positioning, it's learning, it's developing new, better, habits. What makes you think he can't learn to be better in his own end, make better, safer choices? I mean, maybe he can't, maybe he's not coachable, or too stubborn or whatever, but it's too early to conclude any of that, because he's 23 or whatever!

 

I didn’t say he could improve. I am worried that he might not (defensively), because he has always been known as an offensive player and is downright dreadful in his own end. It’s the eye test. If he shows improvement in his own and then of course I would think he could improve that aspect of his game long-term. And I do agree with you that his strength hid his weakness last year.

 

I completely disagree that decision-making/intelligence isn’t his skill set. A skill does not have to be a physical thing.

[King Knut]

Ghost doesn't need to be benched or traded.  Ghost needs to be unshackled.  He needs to skate more and shoot more and do his fancy ice dancing acrobatics more.  LET GHOST BE GHOST.

 

Hakstol has Ghost change his entire game, eclipsing almost EVERY aspect of his game that made him a superstar last year and we're surprised he's not producing as much?

It's half a sophomore slump half Hakstol trying to squeeze a diamond in the rough into a square hole.    He's Ghost!  The Oilers won because they had Paul Coffey AND Kevin Lowe. 

 

...and Gretzky, Messier, Kurri and a few others, but MY POINT REMAINS THE SAME

 

You want Ghost to be better defensively, sit down with a hockey brain and figure out what that looks like for GHOST's skillsets.  Don't try to make him a player he isn't because you'll kill the player he is.