Hands of Scone

[King Knut]

On 11/1/2017 at 7:55 AM, icehole said:

I don't think anyone projected a #8 pick with back to back 96 point seasons in juniors to take 7 years to improve.  Even if he did 3 years in some development leagues, 4 years to become decent player might be a little underwhelming. 

 

I didn't think he had it in him but it looks like he does.  I don't know if he's changed his game all that much, but I do think that he is playing more confident with better linemates.  If he had this in him the entire time, shame on the flyers for not utilizing him right.  Them using him as a defensive specialist did absolutely nothing for the team.  They desperately needed scoring more than they needed a shut down third line.

 

So that brings me to my next point.  There's already talk about Patrick looking unimpressive.  Is he just too young and underdeveloped, or is he just not suited to be on the third line with weise and Koneckny?  What is the only difference in couturier's linemates this season (compared to his linemates at the start of last season when he was 2C)...TK isn't one of them. 

 

I think the flyers are in danger of retarding the growth of their #2 pick center.  Weise is garbage and TK isn't going to be a consistent player (he's still a nice weapon).  Is Filpulla the long term solution for the 2C?  So why not put Patrick there with better linemates.  Filpulla seems responsible enough to center a 3rd line geared more towards defense.

 

Please Flyers...learn how to utilize your top talent!

 

The fallacy is in thinking that it's taken Coots 6 years to become a decent player.  

 

THe only really surprising thing about Coots this season to me is the way he settled into the PP because he looked awful there last year.  

 

Everyone has forgotten that this is the kid who scored a hat trick against the Penguins in the playoffs as a rookie.  He was always good, but the nail in that offensive coffen was hammered in the same series when Laviolette realized his rookie center was also his best bet to shut down Crosby and Malkin, even on the penalty kill and then Lavvy, Berube and Hakstol after him never looked back.

 

Finally last fall when the team started out the season scoring like crazy, I thought they were going to let him off the leash... unfortunately the D and goaltending were so bad, Hakstol had to reign the entire offense back in and play dump and chase for the middle 2/3 of the season.  

 

There are many reasons he wasn't putting up the goals or the points, and that was frustrating even to those of us who really appreciated his game, but a lot of people felt like not only did he always had this in him, but we were kind of seeing everything but the actual point production all along.  He's been an absolute leader at 5 on 5 production for some time.  This year the major difference has been the power play production.   

 

This actually isn't new or surprising.  Or at least it shouldn't be.  What is new is that he's been given the green light to go to the net and not be completely beholden to staying behind his own blue line and he's been given line mates who can make more happen who have been given the green light as well.

 

Offensive zone starts matter.  Who he's playing against matters.  Who's there to pass to and to get passes from matter.  

Remember John LeClair?  Decent player.  No one other than his family in VT ever thought he was a 50 goal scorer.  

 

Coots is a very well rounded hockey player who has been a leader at 5 on 5 for several years for this team.  

 

 

Patrick?  He literally is more of a project.  

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

6 hours ago, Podein25 said:

Can I just repeat what a fantastic thread title this is?

 

Well done @LegionOfDoom

 

 

Thank God for unanswered prayers.......right?

 

[brelic]

34 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Patrick?  He literally is more of a project

 

What do you mean by project?

 

I would say Morin is a project - it was a stretch to draft him where they did, he’s a defensive defenseman with raw tools, and he’s a tall and lanky boy. All things which often mean a longer development cycle.

 

Patrick was projected #1/2, has an NHL frame already, and dominated juniors. 

 

I think he’s here a year too soon, but hardly a project. 

[icehole]

48 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

The fallacy is in thinking that it's taken Coots 6 years to become a decent player.  

 

THe only really surprising thing about Coots this season to me is the way he settled into the PP because he looked awful there last year.  

 

Everyone has forgotten that this is the kid who scored a hat trick against the Penguins in the playoffs as a rookie.  He was always good, but the nail in that offensive coffen was hammered in the same series when Laviolette realized his rookie center was also his best bet to shut down Crosby and Malkin, even on the penalty kill and then Lavvy, Berube and Hakstol after him never looked back.

 

Finally last fall when the team started out the season scoring like crazy, I thought they were going to let him off the leash... unfortunately the D and goaltending were so bad, Hakstol had to reign the entire offense back in and play dump and chase for the middle 2/3 of the season.  

 

There are many reasons he wasn't putting up the goals or the points, and that was frustrating even to those of us who really appreciated his game, but a lot of people felt like not only did he always had this in him, but we were kind of seeing everything but the actual point production all along.  He's been an absolute leader at 5 on 5 production for some time.  This year the major difference has been the power play production.   

 

This actually isn't new or surprising.  Or at least it shouldn't be.  What is new is that he's been given the green light to go to the net and not be completely beholden to staying behind his own blue line and he's been given line mates who can make more happen who have been given the green light as well.

 

Offensive zone starts matter.  Who he's playing against matters.  Who's there to pass to and to get passes from matter.  

Remember John LeClair?  Decent player.  No one other than his family in VT ever thought he was a 50 goal scorer.  

 

Coots is a very well rounded hockey player who has been a leader at 5 on 5 for several years for this team.  

 

 

Patrick?  He literally is more of a project.  

 

 

 

I can't even remember what I wrote yesterday, let alone a month and a half ago.

 

I can't go through this exercise again.  I've done it too many times.  Couturier is a great player and always has been a great player.  He has always lived up to expectations and nobody had any reason to ever doubt him.  

 

Nobody should ever doubt Patrick either.  He's young, and young players should never be criticized, because one day they might be good. 

 

Also, Hextall has not made one bad move since he's taken over.  We can't judge him until he's done, which I was told is when he retires or when he's been fired.  Bravo Hexy!  Frost is awesome and I bet...sorry, I KNOW he and unknown late first rounder will both be on pace for almost 100 points seasons.  Who cares about those 2 guys though when we have the privilege of paying Lehtera $4.5M to sit in the press box.  Schenn on the other hand, glad we got rid of him.  He wasn't even that good 5 on 5.  59 points...probably all on the PP, which doesn't really mean anything.  Player of the week doesn't mean anything if you don't look like you're working hard at it.  I bet the blues are having the blues about acquiring that sack of schzit. 

 

This 4 game win streak has just been a dream to watch.  There's no doubt in my mind that they have what it takes to win out.  Frankly, I believe they won every game this year.  A few bounces here or there, and not having the refs and the league screw us, guess who is undefeated right now.

 

I've officially changed my name to Ron couturier draft pick.

[King Knut]

39 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

What do you mean by project?

 

I would say Morin is a project - it was a stretch to draft him where they did, he’s a defensive defenseman with raw tools, and he’s a tall and lanky boy. All things which often mean a longer development cycle.

 

Patrick was projected #1/2, has an NHL frame already, and dominated juniors. 

 

I think he’s here a year too soon, but hardly a project. 

 

Oh I agree!

Project meaning he’s Not quite ready to be a key contributor in key situations and needs a lot of time and development to acclimate to the NHL game.  

 

Morin was a project, and similarly wont be complete without NHL minutes. 

 

Lineblom was a project because he literally could barely skate.  I believe Strohm is similar.  There are lots of different kinds of projects.  

 

Coots however contributed in a big way and became a cornerstone (albeit one fans loved to be disappointed with) immediately.  He’d shown what we’re seeing now quite early.  It shouldn’t be a surprise that he still has it now that his usage has changed.  

 

 

[King Knut]

15 minutes ago, icehole said:

I can't even remember what I wrote yesterday, let alone a month and a half ago.

 

I can't go through this exercise again.  I've done it too many times.  Couturier is a great player and always has been a great player.  He has always lived up to expectations and nobody had any reason to ever doubt him.  

 

Nobody should ever doubt Patrick either.  He's young, and young players should never be criticized, because one day they might be good. 

 

Also, Hextall has not made one bad move since he's taken over.  We can't judge him until he's done, which I was told is when he retires or when he's been fired.  Bravo Hexy!  Frost is awesome and I bet...sorry, I KNOW he and unknown late first rounder will both be on pace for almost 100 points seasons.  Who cares about those 2 guys though when we have the privilege of paying Lehtera $4.5M to sit in the press box.  Schenn on the other hand, glad we got rid of him.  He wasn't even that good 5 on 5.  59 points...probably all on the PP, which doesn't really mean anything.  Player of the week doesn't mean anything if you don't look like you're working hard at it.  I bet the blues are having the blues about acquiring that sack of schzit. 

 

This 4 game win streak has just been a dream to watch.  There's no doubt in my mind that they have what it takes to win out.  Frankly, I believe they won every game this year.  A few bounces here or there, and not having the refs and the league screw us, guess who is undefeated right now.

 

I've officially changed my name to Ron couturier draft pick.

 

I’m really not sure what any of that was all about.  

 

I’ve been defending Coots for 6 years.  

 

When he craps the bed,  y’all can hate him again, but when folks say “NO ONE SAW THIS COMING!!”  I’m going to raise my hand.  I earned it.   It’s only fair.  

[OccamsRazor]

51 minutes ago, icehole said:

I can't even remember what I wrote yesterday, let alone a month and a half ago.

 

I can't go through this exercise again.  I've done it too many times.  Couturier is a great player and always has been a great player.  He has always lived up to expectations and nobody had any reason to ever doubt him.  

 

Nobody should ever doubt Patrick either.  He's young, and young players should never be criticized, because one day they might be good. 

 

Also, Hextall has not made one bad move since he's taken over.  We can't judge him until he's done, which I was told is when he retires or when he's been fired.  Bravo Hexy!  Frost is awesome and I bet...sorry, I KNOW he and unknown late first rounder will both be on pace for almost 100 points seasons.  Who cares about those 2 guys though when we have the privilege of paying Lehtera $4.5M to sit in the press box.  Schenn on the other hand, glad we got rid of him.  He wasn't even that good 5 on 5.  59 points...probably all on the PP, which doesn't really mean anything.  Player of the week doesn't mean anything if you don't look like you're working hard at it.  I bet the blues are having the blues about acquiring that sack of schzit. 

 

This 4 game win streak has just been a dream to watch.  There's no doubt in my mind that they have what it takes to win out.  Frankly, I believe they won every game this year.  A few bounces here or there, and not having the refs and the league screw us, guess who is undefeated right now.

 

I've officially changed my name to Ron couturier draft pick.

 

WOAH there bro.

 

A little to heavy on the meds i see.

 

Hey but it's a change. Let's see how it plays out.

 

Change is good sometimes.

[brelic]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

Oh I agree!

Project meaning he’s Not quite ready to be a key contributor in key situations and needs a lot of time and development to acclimate to the NHL game.  

 

Morin was a project, and similarly wont be complete without NHL minutes. 

 

Lineblom was a project because he literally could barely skate.  I believe Strohm is similar.  There are lots of different kinds of projects.  

 

Coots however contributed in a big way and became a cornerstone (albeit one fans loved to be disappointed with) immediately.  He’d shown what we’re seeing now quite early.  It shouldn’t be a surprise that he still has it now that his usage has changed.  

 

 

 

Yes I can see what you mean. You’re saying that Couturier contributed right away defensively in a big way even if he wasn’t producing offensively.  But with Patrick, you’re saying we don’t see it yet. 

 

That’s a good point - I don’t really remember Coots’ early games. I’m sure hockey-reference.com would have his corsi by game, right? 

[elmatus]

14 hours ago, brelic said:

 

Yes I can see what you mean. You’re saying that Couturier contributed right away defensively in a big way even if he wasn’t producing offensively.  But with Patrick, you’re saying we don’t see it yet. 

 

That’s a good point - I don’t really remember Coots’ early games. I’m sure hockey-reference.com would have his corsi by game, right? 

 

I remember the fanfare of getting him. I also remember the way he made Malkin largely irrelevant in the playoffs his rookie season. Already, that makes him hugely effective as a player. Patrick hasn't yet shown an elite skill set, but I do expect it will come. He's young.

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, brelic said:

 

Yes I can see what you mean. You’re saying that Couturier contributed right away defensively in a big way even if he wasn’t producing offensively.  But with Patrick, you’re saying we don’t see it yet. 

 

That’s a good point - I don’t really remember Coots’ early games. I’m sure hockey-reference.com would have his corsi by game, right? 

 

Essentially yes, but he was also scoring a bit more and all in all just a more impactful and dynamic player as a teenaged rookie.

 

Couturier was a streaky scorer as a rookie, but he had 5g at this point his rookie year.  

He went long streaks without scoring at all, then he'd pot goals 5 games in a row.  

 

I don't know if hockey reference breaks down Corsi by year, but his Corsi didn't get particularly good for a while... and as has been pointed out by many over the years this is likely because his Defensive Zone starts were so  high comparatively.  His first two seasons he started 60% and 67% in his own zone.  4 time Selke winner Patrice Bergeron for example had 51 and 57% defensive zone starts over the same period.  In 7 years, Couturier's d zone% has never slipped below 57%

 

As a rookie, Couturier only scored 27 points, and only 13 goals, but those goals showed bang for the buck as 2 were shorties and 4 were game winners. His +18 is also pretty impressive for a rookie.  He was 9th in the Calder voting and on the charts for the Selke as a rookie.  

 

So yeah, he was contributing defensively in a huge way right out of the gate.  But his offense was also comparatively better at the same time.  We'd see flashes of his potential here and there when he'd break free fro the leash a bit.

 

I often wonder how much sooner we would have seen stuff like we are this season from Couturier if Laviolette had remained his coach.  Lavvy openly lamented having to use Couturier in the defensive capacity he did.  I remember him saying that it was regrettable to not have him focusing on his offense more, but that they needed to do it to win games.  

 

At the time it came across as a conscious choice between utilizing this great young talent to put up points and utilizing him to shut down points.  On a team that had Giroux at his best, Hartnell, Voracek, Jagr, Briere and an emerging JVR, Simmonds and Schenn and given Couturier's demonstrable knack for Defense, it made the most sense for the team to lean on him for that... but I don't think most in the organization were comfortable with the choice.  Most people in Flyer land seemed to just choose to believe that there was no choice, he was put in that role because he wasn't good at scoring, but that simply wasn't the case.  He showed a lot of promise at both.  The team's needs pushed him in the other direction.

 

 

[AJgoal]

Beauty of a backhand saucer pass to set up Simmonds on the PP. 

[mojo1917]

On 12/13/2017 at 6:57 PM, icehole said:

He's young, and young players should never be criticized, because one day they might be good. 

It's not this. 

This is lazy. 

These young player will never improve if they don't receive criticism. 

To say he's a bust less than halfway through his first season in the league is just stupid.

you're not stupid, don't write stupid stuff.

 

[jammer2]

 DILLY DILLY!!!