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WordsOfWisdom

Should the NHL "Pro-rate" The Stats for This Season (if it's lost)? - Matthews Fantastic Season (Merged)

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Posted (edited)

I'm doing what I think the NHL should do with the statistics this season..... pro-rating them for 82 games, given the circumstances.

 

Matthews played in every game this season and had 70 GP, more than a good enough sample size. We can conclude that had the season run to completion, Matthews would have likely finished with:

 

82 GP, 55 G, 39 A, for 94 points.

 

Congratulations Matthews on your first 50-goal season (first Leafs player to do it since Dave Andreychuk) and congrats on passing Rick Vaive's Leafs record of 54 goals in a season set back in 1981-82, and a much greater accomplishment doing it now in this era.  Given the body of work and the circumstances surrounding this season, you have both accomplishments in my books. 

 

 

 

Edited by pilldoc

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Great season by Matthews, but no, the NHL should not pro-rate anybody's stats any more than they should say that Leon Draisaitl scored 127 points.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

I'm doing what I think the NHL should do with the statistics this season..... pro-rating them for 82 games, given the circumstances.

 

Matthews played in every game this season and had 70 GP, more than a good enough sample size. We can conclude that had the season run to completion, Matthews would have likely finished with:

 

82 GP, 55 G, 39 A, for 94 points.

 

Congratulations Matthews on your first 50-goal season (first Leafs player to do it since Dave Andreychuk) and congrats on passing Rick Vaive's Leafs record of 54 goals in a season set back in 1981-82, and a much greater accomplishment doing it now in this era.  Given the body of work and the circumstances surrounding this season, you have both accomplishments in my books. 

 

 

 

 

LMAO. That's all.

 

Edit: The Flyers were red hot heading into the "corona' break". I think they should hand them the cup.

 

WoW -you're a good poster on here, but seriously, you wonder why people make fun of Leaf fans. The ONLY way you get credited with scoring 50 is to actually do it. 

Edited by flyercanuck

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5 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

Great season by Matthews, but no, the NHL should not pro-rate anybody's stats any more than they should say that Leon Draisaitl scored 127 points.

 

 

This is different though. The season didn't end because of a lockout, and Matthews was not injured. Therefore, he "got there" fair and square. 

 

Schools are doing the same thing right now in Canada when it comes to final grades. 

 

The Toronto Maple Leafs should now have a giant asterisk next to Vaive's name and should honour Matthews as the new club record holder for goals in a season. It's close, but he gets there with 55 goals. Record broken.

 

 

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5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

LMAO. That's all.

 

Edit: The Flyers were red hot heading into the "corona' break". I think they should hand them the cup.

 

WoW -you're a good poster on here, but seriously, you wonder why people make fun of Leaf fans. The ONLY way you get credited with scoring 50 is to actually do it. 

 

Normally yes, but these are exceptional circumstances. This wasn't due to injury or lockout, and this wasn't a 41 game (half season) sample. He played in every game and would have got there if not for Coronavirus. Therefore, I'd recognize him as the new club leader. He did it. 

 

50 goals was a lock, and he just slips past Vaive. So when people talk about how many seasons Matthews has as a 50-goal scorer, this counts. When people talk about the last time the Leafs had a 50-goal scorer, this counts. 25 year drought broken (whatever it was). 

 

I'm pro-rating his numbers and will consider him to have accomplished those milestones.  

 

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5 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Normally yes, but these are exceptional circumstances. This wasn't due to injury or lockout, and this wasn't a 41 game (half season) sample. He played in every game and would have got there if not for Coronavirus. Therefore, I'd recognize him as the new club leader. He did it. 

 

50 goals was a lock, and he just slips past Vaive. So when people talk about how many seasons Matthews has as a 50-goal scorer, this counts. When people talk about the last time the Leafs had a 50-goal scorer, this counts. 25 year drought broken (whatever it was). 

 

I'm pro-rating his numbers and will consider him to have accomplished those milestones.  

 

 

He could have broke his leg next game. He could go on another 7 game stretch with no goals. 

 

 You can consider him having accomplished those goals. I'm sure there's other Leafs fans, along with Mrs. Mathews and Gramma Mathews who also do. And nobody else. Including the NHLs 50 goal club.

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In 1960-61 Frank Mahovlich scored 48 goals in 70 games. If you pro rate to an 82 game season he scores 56. So sorry Word, Matthews doesn't get the record. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

He could have broke his leg next game.

 

Possibly, but more likely that he would have played in all of the remaining games. 

 

5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

He could go on another 7 game stretch with no goals. 

 

The team had just finished a low scoring rough patch and got through it. Statistically speaking, they were probably going to start scoring a ton of goals as the offence would have heated back up. 

 

Even with his 7-game goalless stretch, he was still on pace for 55 goals. 

 

5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

You can consider him having accomplished those goals. I'm sure there's other Leafs fans, along with Mrs. Mathews and Gramma Mathews who also do. And nobody else. Including the NHLs 50 goal club.

 

I think we need to revisit some of these milestone clubs and start considering players based on GPG, APG, etc... and look at their trajectory rather than the final total they ended up with. There are getting to be too many seasons in the NHL (and other leagues) that are either locked out, post-poned, cancelled, or whatever to be able to obtain meaningful data from the raw totals any more. 

 

To me, it means less how many goals someone ended up with.... it's what pace they were scoring at.  Perfect example: Mario Lemieux. We can all sit here and say Gretzky has his 92 goal season or whatever it was, but it doesn't change the fact that Mario Lemieux was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky, regardless of where #66 ended up on the all time list. 

 

I think fans will look back on this season and view Matthews in the same light. That he was the best goal scorer the Leafs have had in the modern era. He surpasses Vaive, Andreychuk, and everyone else, especially where you compare eras.  

 

Edited by WordsOfWisdom

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Just now, flyer4ever said:

In 1960-61 Frank Mahovlich scored 48 goals in 70 games. If you pro rate to an 82 game season he scores 56. So sorry Word, Matthews doesn't get the record. 

 

Really? Wow.  :)  

 

Okay, we'll slot Matthews in at #2 behind only Mahovlich. 

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55 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Possibly, but more likely that he would have played in all of the remaining games. 

 

 Probably. But it's not 100% a sure thing. 

 

55 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

 

The team had just finished a low scoring rough patch and got through it. Statistically speaking, they were probably going to start scoring a ton of goals as the offence would have heated back up. 

 

Even with his 7-game goalless stretch, he was still on pace for 55 goals. 

 

 The 1st place team should win the Stanley Cup every year. They rarely do. 

 

55 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

 

I think we need to revisit some of these milestone clubs and start considering players based on GPG, APG, etc... and look at their trajectory rather than the final total they ended up with. There are getting to be too many seasons in the NHL (and other leagues) that are either locked out, post-poned, cancelled, or whatever to be able to obtain meaningful data from the raw totals any more. 

 

To me, it means less how many goals someone ended up with.... it's what pace they were scoring at.  Perfect example: Mario Lemieux. We can all sit here and say Gretzky has his 92 goal season or whatever it was, but it doesn't change the fact that Mario Lemieux was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky, regardless of where #66 ended up on the all time list. 

 

 Ok. But the fact that Gretzky STILL outscored him while being the greatest playmaker of all time (and a little less whiny) kind of makes his 92 pretty fecking incredible doesn't it?

 

55 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I think fans will look back on this season and view Matthews in the same light. That he was the best goal scorer the Leafs have had in the modern era. He surpasses Vaive, Andreychuk, and everyone else, especially where you compare eras.  

 

 

 I think some Leaf fans will. Most of us really don't care. Is he the greatest goal scorer THE LEAFS have ever had? Maybe. But the Leafs just haven't produced many very good players over the last 50 years. So it's really not saying a whole lot.

 

 Maybe if Mathews took care of things in his own end instead of just being a goal suck he'd have a little better playoff record as well. He's one of the worst "elite" centres in the league when he doesn't have the puck.

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I really shouldn't be entertaining this, because I think that calling this a half--baked plan is an insult to half-baked plans everywhere, but..... What's the magic cut-off number for when we don't pro-rate a player's stats? 70 games? 60? 50?

Do we create a sliding scale for these arbitrary cut-offs?

Do we pro-rate them based on minutes played or games played?

Do we re-write the record book for some butthurt Leafs fans?

Or do we just accept that sh|t happens and allow the record to stand as it is?

 

I know my choice.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

I really shouldn't be entertaining this, because I think that calling this a half--baked plan is an insult to half-baked plans everywhere, but..... What's the magic cut-off number for when we don't pro-rate a player's stats? 70 games? 60? 50?

Do we create a sliding scale for these arbitrary cut-offs?

Do we pro-rate them based on minutes played or games played?

Do we re-write the record book for some butthurt Leafs fans?

Or do we just accept that sh|t happens and allow the record to stand as it is?

 

I know my choice.

 

 

 

Hell by the OP idea we should pro-rate the 2004-05 and 2012-13 seasons because of the CBA lock-out. We don't and we never will.  You can't pro-rate seasons to pad players stats.  Period end of story .......  Because if you do, it opens a pandora's box you don't want to open .......

 

So yes Mathews had a great season ....but NO he DID NOT Score 50 goals.... end of story

Edited by pilldoc
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How is this fair to Vaive?

 

And besides, he only played 77 games of 80 that season.  If you pro-rate it, he scored 56 and Matthews still has to wait another year to do better.

 

Maybe Matthews could claim the alltime Goals/game in a season in Leafs history?   

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1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

Ok. But the fact that Gretzky STILL outscored him while being the greatest playmaker of all time (and a little less whiny) kind of makes his 92 pretty fecking incredible doesn't it?

 

It does. Absolutely. So long as people recognize that Lemieux did the same thing in half the time (at least with the goals) it's all fine and dandy. A healthy Lemieux that plays 82 games/season in his prime might have scored 100 goals in a season. Gretzky's single season goal total is like the Rick Vaive total on the Leafs. It's there, but it's only there because of a technicality. Gretzky has overall points and is the all-time assist leader but Lemieux has it when it comes to goals in my books... in the same manner that people still consider Bobby Orr to be ahead of Paul Coffey and Ray Bourque.

 

Other players have done better than Vaive but for one reason or another (shortER seasons or shortENED seasons beyond their control) they haven't eclipsed the actual total, despite being better goal scorers. 

 

My two cents as always.  :) 

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Pro rate Mathews 1st ever game to his career and he has 1128 goals. Greatest goal scorer of all time!

 

 Hail Auston! (sorry WoW...I couldn't help myself)

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23 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

How is this fair to Vaive?

 

And besides, he only played 77 games of 80 that season.  If you pro-rate it, he scored 56 and Matthews still has to wait another year to do better.

 

Maybe Matthews could claim the alltime Goals/game in a season in Leafs history?   

 

Hmmm, I thought they played 84 games in a season back then.  My bad.  😐 

 

I think Mahovlich owns that one.  :) 

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2 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

It does. Absolutely. So long as people recognize that Lemieux did the same thing in half the time (at least with the goals) it's all fine and dandy. A healthy Lemieux that plays 82 games/season in his prime might have scored 100 goals in a season. Gretzky's single season goal total is like the Rick Vaive total on the Leafs. It's there, but it's only there because of a technicality. Gretzky has overall points and is the all-time assist leader but Lemieux has it when it comes to goals in my books... in the same manner that people still consider Bobby Orr to be ahead of Paul Coffey and Ray Bourque.

 

Other players have done better than Vaive but for one reason or another (shortER seasons or shortENED seasons beyond their control) they haven't eclipsed the actual total, despite being better goal scorers. 

 

My two cents as always.  :) 

 

The technicality being that he actually did it.  That's a big technicality.

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2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

The technicality being that he actually did it.  That's a big technicality.

 

Technically speaking.

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2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Pro rate Mathews 1st ever game to his career and he has 1128 goals. Greatest goal scorer of all time!

 

 Hail Auston! (sorry WoW...I couldn't help myself)

 

I know this thread seems like some serious Leafs butt-hurt goin' on...... but if not for Coronavirus, that would be the story right now. Matthews would be chasing down a team record that has stood for 40 years. That's a once-in-two-lifetimes event for Toronto fans, so yes it would have been a big deal in Toronto to see one of the more important franchise records get broken, and yes, ointment must be distributed liberally.   :) 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I know this thread seems like some serious Leafs butt-hurt goin' on...... but if not for Coronavirus, that would be the story right now. Matthews would be chasing down a team record that has stood for 40 years. That's a once-in-two-lifetimes event for Toronto fans, so yes it would have been a big deal in Toronto to see one of the more important franchise records get broken, and yes, ointment must be distributed liberally.   :) 

 

 

 

Maybe they could give him a participation ribbon?

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8 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I know this thread seems like some serious Leafs butt-hurt goin' on...... but if not for Coronavirus, that would be the story right now. Matthews would be chasing down a team record that has stood for 40 years. That's a once-in-two-lifetimes event for Toronto fans, so yes it would have been a big deal in Toronto to see one of the more important franchise records get broken, and yes, ointment must be distributed liberally.   :) 

 

 

 

Let's put things in perspective: if not for Coronavirus, thousands more people would be alive and the world's economy wouldn't be teetering to the edge of collapse. The trials and tribulations of a young multi-millionaire (whom I bet isn't thinking about his lost 50 goals at this very moment) sort of pale in comparison.

 

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20 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

I'm doing what I think the NHL should do with the statistics this season..... pro-rating them for 82 games, given the circumstances.

 

Matthews played in every game this season and had 70 GP, more than a good enough sample size. We can conclude that had the season run to completion, Matthews would have likely finished with:

 

82 GP, 55 G, 39 A, for 94 points.

 

Congratulations Matthews on your first 50-goal season (first Leafs player to do it since Dave Andreychuk) and congrats on passing Rick Vaive's Leafs record of 54 goals in a season set back in 1981-82, and a much greater accomplishment doing it now in this era.  Given the body of work and the circumstances surrounding this season, you have both accomplishments in my books. 

 

 

 

Except for that little tidbit about how most players slow way the efff down in the last 15 games usually.

 

Prorating isn't a workable idea. Although I agree he would have hit at least 50 and Ovechkin would be tied with Gretzky and Bossy for 9x50 goal seasons. I don;t mind you crediting him with it.

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None of this pro rating has any real validity, when you consider how the game has evolved. Fitness, equipment, depth of opponents, rules enforcement, coaching, skill development as young kids, all has improved in leaps and bounds. The only regression in pro hockey is the greed and ethics of the commissioner and the owners. We have been lucky to have watched these great players play the game, the numbers are just bar stool chatter. IMO, Ovechkin is the greatest pure scorer, consider his numbers against league averages in his career. Just my opinion, but lets throw this out there too. If you had to pick one player to start a franchise who would it be. My pick is Nick Lidstrom. Reliable, strong, he was so good and so smart he would go weeks without ever even doing a crossover. He was always right where he had to be, with or without the puck. He doesn't get enough credit because he did it without flash. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Maybe they could give him a participation ribbon?

 

A statue will do nicely.  :) 

 

3 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

Let's put things in perspective: if not for Coronavirus, thousands more people would be alive and the world's economy wouldn't be teetering to the edge of collapse. The trials and tribulations of a young multi-millionaire (whom I bet isn't thinking about his lost 50 goals at this very moment) sort of pale in comparison.

 

Yes, I'm lamenting about what could have been. This is my thread to sulk.  :( 

 

Actually, it's intended to be more of a celebration on a fantastic year for Matthews. 

 

3 hours ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

Prorating isn't a workable idea. Although I agree he would have hit at least 50 and Ovechkin would be tied with Gretzky and Bossy for 9x50 goal seasons. I don;t mind you crediting him with it.

 

Oh wow I hadn't even thought of Ovechkin. There's another record that won't get broken now.   :( 

 

See, this is all the more reason for the NHL to pro-rate the stats this season. The integrity of various records depends on it.  People still want to put an asterisk next to the New Jersey Devils for winning in 1995 because it was a shortened season. So that's fine, put a "*" next to the team W-L records and player stats, but pro-rate everything to 82 games (so all teams have the same number of games played) and make those the official numbers. Bump the player stats based on how many games were remaining for their respective team and bump them based on their per-game averages for this season. 

 

 

 

Edited by WordsOfWisdom

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3 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

 

 

See, this is all the more reason for the NHL to pro-rate the stats this season. The integrity of various records depends on it.  People still want to put an asterisk next to the New Jersey Devils for winning in 1995 because it was a shortened season. So that's fine, put a "*" next to the team W-L records and player stats, but pro-rate everything to 82 games (so all teams have the same number of games played) and make those the official numbers. Bump the player stats based on how many games were remaining for their respective team and bump them based on their per-game averages for this season. 

 

 

 

 

Maybe they could prorate totals for teams too. Like say you're playing in a crappy division that has the likes of Detroit/Ottawa/Buffalo/Montreal/Florida, heck even Toronto in it, maybe make goals you scored against those teams only worth half a goal and team points worth maybe 2/3 of a point. Waddaya think?

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      I really shouldn't be entertaining this, because I think that calling this a half--baked plan is an insult to half-baked plans everywhere, but..... What's the magic cut-off number for when we don't pro-rate a player's stats? 70 games? 60? 50? Do we create a sliding scale for these arbitrary cut-offs? Do we pro-rate them based on minutes played or games played? Do we re-write the record book for some butthurt Leafs fans? Or do we just accept that sh|t happens and allow the rec
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      The technicality being that he actually did it.  That's a big technicality.
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      I think that the integrity of these matters depends on us NOT awarding records to people that haven't actually broken them.    
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      Great season by Matthews, but no, the NHL should not pro-rate anybody's stats any more than they should say that Leon Draisaitl scored 127 points.  
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      He could have broke his leg next game. He could go on another 7 game stretch with no goals.     You can consider him having accomplished those goals. I'm sure there's other Leafs fans, along with Mrs. Mathews and Gramma Mathews who also do. And nobody else. Including the NHLs 50 goal club.
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      Technically speaking.

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