Debbie Downers -> Kudos

[aziz]

As a player, if I'm on the bench and I see a teammate get freight trained and now he lay out cold on the ice... I'm gonna wanna "get that guy" clean or not. He took out my teammate, doesn't matter if he did it clean.

....

I mean seriously, if the other team wants to freight train my team into oblivion, well as long as it's clean, more power to them? and I'd instruct my players to let it happen so long as it's clean?.... yeah, no fkcing way

so hit them back. they wanna pull out the big guns, go ahead and do the same. why does every big hit have to result in fighting majors? why can't it just be reciprocated? you see your guy get blown up, make a note to go and blow up one of their guys next shift.

it used to be that the guy who got hit would take the hitter's number and look to pay him back in kind later. now, whistles have to blow and two guys have to sit for 5 minutes. the game has to go on pause while the response is meted out outside of the flow of the game. i think that's too bad. i like to see big hitting beget big hitting, not see the play called dead while one guy punches someone else's helmet for 20 seconds.

[Digityman]

you see your guy get blown up, make a note to go and blow up one of their guys next shift

Agreed. Good hits belong in hockey.

[Spinorama]

so hit them back. they wanna pull out the big guns, go ahead and do the same. why does every big hit have to result in fighting majors? why can't it just be reciprocated? you see your guy get blown up, make a note to go and blow up one of their guys next shift.

it used to be that the guy who got hit would take the hitter's number and look to pay him back in kind later. now, whistles have to blow and two guys have to sit for 5 minutes. the game has to go on pause while the response is meted out outside of the flow of the game. i think that's too bad. i like to see big hitting beget big hitting, not see the play called dead while one guy punches someone else's helmet for 20 seconds.

I guess I should've specified that I didn't mean that for every nice check, one of our guys needs to go out there and pick a fight. But at the same time, I don't have a problem with someone sticking up for a teammate, even if that means skating over to the guy who just laid out someone and challenge them. What's the problem with that? If it's a challenge, and then both guys agree to drop the gloves and fight, the problem is? How's that worse then two guys saying "hey, wanna go" at a faceoff? That premediated crap is annoying but a fight that occurs in the heat of the moment is wrong as well? When is it okay to stand up for your team and drop the gloves? At this point why don't you just suggest take fighting out of the game then cause if a heat of the moment play isn't grounds for fighting, then what is? Blatant cheap shots? then you'll argue that they usually end up with the team getting a power play and fighting that that situation is wrong cause you rob your team of a good scoring op... it's okay to not like fighting in the sport though.

I forget what thread it is in but I actually agree with you in terms of taking numbers and hitting people back. You'll see what I wrote there about team toughness and being able to send the other team a message without actually being a jackass about it.

However, I have no problem with a player wanting to kick the crap out of someone who just laid out their teammate. If you can't stand up for your team then, you may as well abolish fighting from the sport cause then it really does have no place

[Spinorama]

Agreed. Good hits belong in hockey.

Indeed!

[aziz]

@Digityman

exactly. and each time a good hit stops play while someone looks for immediate payback, good hits have less and less use. a big hit should be a valuable tactic. not only does it set a tone, but it knocks a guy off the puck and puts him on the ground, taking him out of the play for a moment. the hitting team can use that; there's an advantage to be gained, a reason to hit beyond getting the crowd into the game. if a whistle blows every time you do that, though, that advantage is gone. there is no point.

[aziz]

When is it okay to stand up for your team and drop the gloves?

when the other player has stepped over the line of hockey play into dirty hit. the sabres should have pounded lucic when he steamrolled miller. a solid and heavy (but clean) check is part of the game, and should be answered as part of the game. an elbow to the head or a charge from behind into the boards are not part of the game, and should be met with fists and broken noses, absolutely.

if someone puts a shoulder squarely into your guy's chest, imo the response should be, "hey, well done, but i can do better," and then look for the chance to give it back with interest. indignation that someone has the nerve to play hard nosed hockey and should be beat down between whistles isn't the answer i like to see.

[Claude Monet]

@CoffeehousePorcupine

""""And For Poulin 20........I disagree on Schenn...........Forwards are suposed to be Good Defencively also and thats where Schenns problem is, he is Very weak defencively. Now Mark Recchi was Weak defensively also, but his Offencive numbers Compensated, thats not the case with Schenn """"

I have not watched a lot of Schenn but he seems VERY good on the forecheck....aka the first line of defense. Can't really comment on coverage in his own zone but his forecheck stood out in the B's game.

[OH1FlyersFan]

If I'm going to be positive, then I'd say Read and Coturier have been awesome. and it's fun to watch them play. Same with Harry Z. Exciting group of rookies. Can't wait to see how they do next season with all the experience they're getting. Hang in there, Giroux!

[Spinorama]

when the other player has stepped over the line of hockey play into dirty hit. the sabres should have pounded lucic when he steamrolled miller. a solid and heavy (but clean) check is part of the game, and should be answered as part of the game. an elbow to the head or a charge from behind into the boards are not part of the game, and should be met with fists and broken noses, absolutely.

if someone puts a shoulder squarely into your guy's chest, imo the response should be, "hey, well done, but i can do better," and then look for the chance to give it back with interest. indignation that someone has the nerve to play hard nosed hockey and should be beat down between whistles isn't the answer i like to see.

back to the situation at hand. I have no problem with players sticking up for each other. And personally I have no problem with players challenging other players who just laid someone out cleanly or not to a fight I'm not saying jump the guy, I'm saying challenge). They have each other's backs. That's the bottom line. I'm laughing right now thinking of a scenario "hey man, this game's gonna be tough... are you with me??? "only if you get cheap shotted!!". If an opposing team has a player who can hit and hit hard but still clean, I'd want my team to send a message to that player that none of his stuff will be tolerated. I'm not gonna watch a player go down just because a hit is within the rules... the end result is still an injured player and my team won't stand for that.

I loved Schenn's hit. I love that the Bruin stood up for his teammate and I loved even more that Schenn backed his sh!t up. I gained a great respect for every player involved in all aspects of that circumstance and to me, it shouldn't be any other way... oh, wait, I'd take that instigation penalty away from the Bruin. There is no difference between a player skating up to another player and challenging him to a fight after ANY circumstance during play and two guys agreeing to fight before the puck is even dropped. if two guys agree to go, then they agree to go. The only time the instigator should be called is if one guy clearly drops the gloves first and starts throwing before the other guy agrees to fight. There are plenty of clear signs that just because the other guy is fighting back, it's not so clear he really wants to go. With Schenn, he saw the challenge and accepted it (even said so in a post game interview) so the Bruin shouldn't have gotten an instigator.

[aziz]

If an opposing team has a player who can hit and hit hard but still clean, I'd want my team to send a message to that player that none of his stuff will be tolerated.

what is there to "tolerate"? a check? a clean, arms-down, shoulder-to-chest check is beyond the pale and won't be tolerated? what's next, we fight guys who have the nerve to take really hard slapshots at our goalie? they can hurt, too, you know. goalies have missed time taking a big slapshot up high. dangerous stuff that shooter is playing with. should it be answered with a brawl?

a check is part of the game and doesn't warrant an out-of-game response. it doesn't require someone to address the situation, to stick up for his teammate, to do anything but continue to play the game understanding the other guys want to play rough. so play rough back. schenn lays someone out cleanly, the bruins collectively make a note to pay him back the next time they have a line on him. done and done, and we have a physical hockey game where the payback becomes part of the play. that's good stuff.

i don't like fighting after clean hits thing because it breaks the flow of the game. it erases the point of the check. it makes a circus out of every hit, means every hit results in penalty time, ultimately makes the big hit less common. it insists a big hit is somehow extraordinary enough to demand immediate whistle-blowing retribution. it'd be like charging the mound on every inside pitch or going after every guy who sacked a quaterback. getting hit legally is supposed to be a "normal" part of the game. let it be a "normal" part of the game. don't make it an event every time it happens, with every hitter having to defend his play with his fists and then sitting in the box for five minutes.

(what i can't decide is the chicken and egg of clean hits getting called as penalties versus players feeling like every guy who throws a check needs to be fought. is it the ticky-tacky penalty calling of every semi-violent thing that has guys going, "OMG, i can't believe he hit our guy, we have to jump him!," or is it the "we have to jump him!" reaction to every hit that has refs calling clean contact? i don't know. they're related, just not sure exactly how.)

anyway, through all of the above, i know what you're saying, i do. you like to see your team sticking up for each other, and if someone catches your guy and he goes down, the reaction feels right. *feels* right. in the end, though, the expectation of a fight after every big hit, to me, lessens the game. if scott hartnell has someone lined up, your expectation is that he should expect to fight someone if he lands the check. i.e., if he blasts someone cleanly, he should expect to sit for 5 minutes. i don't want hartnell off the ice for 5 minutes, but i do want him to take the opportunity to put an opposing player on his butt. having one necessitate the other makes the game less.

[Vanflyer]

Schenn is starting to look a bit better and really energized the team with his big hit today.

I thought Schenn had his best game of the year against the Bruins. He played with fire in his belly and energy. Whatever kind of water he is drinking, please share some with JVR when he returns!

[Vanflyer]

Unlike what the idiot announcers said "he hit high going for his head".

Those same idiot announcers were saying what a clean hit Ferrence made against the rags. The are such ******* homers it is sickening.

[Vanflyer]

Even though we lost in the homerun hitting contest. I am so proud of the Rookies taking it to one of the best teams in the league! I wonder how many teams have gotten 5 goals past TT this season?

Good thing Homer doesn't read the Fan Boards as Hartnell would have been gone after 5 games and Schenn would be the next target (he became a Flyer today I feel).

No other team has. TT has let 4 goals in three times (and lost all 4 games pffft!).

[Vanflyer]

One more "D" man is not going to make this team a cup contenders! Homer gave away the farm acquiring Pronger.Was it worth it? I'd like to see more Phantoms brought up,like the other big guy "Ollie",big bodies help! The Bruins game should have everybody asking for more of that kind of play,nothing too violent,just lots of physical contact.

The farm?? Sbisa who has not done anything of note yet. Joffrey Lupul, who after he was traded contracted some blood disorder that almost ended his career (and who EVER saw this year coming?). The lupul move was cap relief. The two first round picks hurt a bit. I certainly would not say the farm.

[Spinorama]

what is there to "tolerate"? a check? a clean, arms-down, shoulder-to-chest check is beyond the pale and won't be tolerated? what's next, we fight guys who have the nerve to take really hard slapshots at our goalie? they can hurt, too, you know. goalies have missed time taking a big slapshot up high. dangerous stuff that shooter is playing with. should it be answered with a brawl?

a check is part of the game and doesn't warrant an out-of-game response. it doesn't require someone to address the situation, to stick up for his teammate, to do anything but continue to play the game understanding the other guys want to play rough. so play rough back. schenn lays someone out cleanly, the bruins collectively make a note to pay him back the next time they have a line on him. done and done, and we have a physical hockey game where the payback becomes part of the play. that's good stuff.

i don't like fighting after clean hits thing because it breaks the flow of the game. it erases the point of the check. it makes a circus out of every hit, means every hit results in penalty time, ultimately makes the big hit less common. it insists a big hit is somehow extraordinary enough to demand immediate whistle-blowing retribution. it'd be like charging the mound on every inside pitch or going after every guy who sacked a quaterback. getting hit legally is supposed to be a "normal" part of the game. let it be a "normal" part of the game. don't make it an event every time it happens, with every hitter having to defend his play with his fists and then sitting in the box for five minutes.

(what i can't decide is the chicken and egg of clean hits getting called as penalties versus players feeling like every guy who throws a check needs to be fought. is it the ticky-tacky penalty calling of every semi-violent thing that has guys going, "OMG, i can't believe he hit our guy, we have to jump him!," or is it the "we have to jump him!" reaction to every hit that has refs calling clean contact? i don't know. they're related, just not sure exactly how.)

anyway, through all of the above, i know what you're saying, i do. you like to see your team sticking up for each other, and if someone catches your guy and he goes down, the reaction feels right. *feels* right. in the end, though, the expectation of a fight after every big hit, to me, lessens the game. if scott hartnell has someone lined up, your expectation is that he should expect to fight someone if he lands the check. i.e., if he blasts someone cleanly, he should expect to sit for 5 minutes. i don't want hartnell off the ice for 5 minutes, but i do want him to take the opportunity to put an opposing player on his butt. having one necessitate the other makes the game less.

well, keep focusing on the idea that you think my idea is to jump every one that lays out a clean hit and we'll be here forever. I've pointed out several times that's not what I'm all about. Find the post that has me talking about how to send message and exact revenge without being a jackass and you'll see where I'm really coming from. You're taking things that I've said here and putting them up as if that's what I'm ALL about and that's just not the case. But I do stand by the notion that players are allowed to challenge (read clearly, NOT JUMP) each other to a fight, at any time during the game, for whatever reason they damn well please.

I've clearly indicated that I want my team to play tough. I want them to stand up for each other. And if someone wants to challenge another player to a fight after a big hit then that should be accepted. The other player doesn't have to accept. And in the situation with Hartnell, well that's a league issue. If a player gets jumped and has no other recourse then to defend himself, then the refs need to get a clue and not punish the player (Hartnell) in that situation. Don't give each 5 for fighting and then 2 to the guy that started it. Just give the guy that started it 5 and let Hartnell go back to the bench.

[Vanflyer]

I think he's going to be fine but he's going to be somewhat of a liability for awhile.

Also on the positive side of the ledger: Wayne Simmonds is playing with a ton of confidence. The way he's controlling the puck along the boards and creating space for his line mates is eye opening.

Totally agree. Someone was complaining that he is always knocked off the puck and makes bad passes. I am not seeing that game at all anymore. Actually the opposite to the point of what you are calling out. I really think he is growing and looks like he has not hit his ceiling yet. If he could just put on a few more pounds, he could become a very dangerous power forward.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Vanflyer

[canoli]

indignation that someone has the nerve to play hard nosed hockey and should be beat down between whistles isn't the answer i like to see.

well-said _{(though I don't know why your font is so tiny (!))}.

Phony ("manufactured") indignation is part of our culture these days and it's infected the NHL. The masses Bettman has attracted don't realize (and won't care) these fights are the product of the same disease they read and hear about on talk radio every day. They see 2 guys go at it after a big hit and think "now this is what I came for!"

(actually, even worse, I bet younger players probably feel justified in going after a guy who throws a clean check)

The flow to a hockey game used to be important; it was one of the qualities of the contest. Now it's irrelevant. It's been replaced by power plays, staged fights and - if everything goes "right" - a skills competition at the end.

These fights magnify the spectacle of the event for the newer fans; therefore the moneyed interests encourage them, maybe not overtly but by providing no disincentive we can reliably judge their intent. The number of new viewers will determine whether the next t.v. contract is favorable to the League or not, so new fans' interests have priority. The long-time, die-hard fans' loyalty is taken for granted, and with good reason. I wonder if there is a breaking point for us...Shootouts in the playoffs maybe? (it's coming)

The "spectacle" sells and I guess it won't change any time soon...

[mojo1917]

@Spinorama

i thought schenn's hit was great hockey play. i thought (Kelly?) immediately dropping the mitts was a momentum killer for the flyers. was it calculated on Kelly's part ?: did he think that was a big hit, it got the building rocking and the flyers buzzing even more, i gotta stop the momentum here . if so that sucks. i think the whole you hit my guy hard and clean now you need to answer for it , is real thug like.

i'm not a guy that's against throwing hands when it's necessary , but i don't think it's necessary when a hit is hard and clean like schenns was, now if schenn ran him into the boards, hit him 3 seconds late, okay go getcher boy's back...otherwise be ready to play like it's the playoffs today.

Edited January 24, 2012 by mojo1917

[Vanflyer]

you see your guy get blown up, make a note to go and blow up one of their guys next shift.

ding ding ding. But don't go out of your way and end up taking a stupid penalty. Look for the opportunity and if it presents itself go after it, but don't fabricate it on your own. That only hurts your team not help.

[aziz]

@Spinorama

i guess i'm not understanding where you are drawing the line. i want to see that schenn hit 10 times every game. unfortunately, someone has to go fight schenn afterwards, so that isn't going to happen. yeah, schenn could decline the fight, i guess. technically. 'course, here's schenn on that:

""I was skating up the ice and I saw him turn around and [Kelly] wanted to fight," Schenn said. "The guy challenged me, so I guess I had to. I guess that's what good teammates do."

so, he didn't see himself having any real choice. get challanged and skate away, not really the manly thing to do.

here's the sad part: the hit gave the flyers control of the puck right at the blueline, with one boston dman out of the play. there was a nice opportunity created out of the hit....but it went in the crapper because it had to be answered with a fight. schenn had to be shown his stuff would not be tolerated, and he felt obligated to not turn tail and run. ultimately, there was no hockey point to the hit, because it ended the play. i want to see the hockey point to the hit, i want that turnover to result in a chance for the flyers, not just a fight.

[aziz]

i'm not a guy that's against throwing hands when it's necessary , but i don't think it's necessary when a hit is hard and clean like schenns was, now if schenn ran him into the boards, hit him 3 seconds late, okay go getcher boy's back...otherwise be ready to play like it's the playoffs today.

this, exactly.

[HagFlyFan 16]

So, if i chase the guy down who stole the lady's purse and caught him, I couldn't defend myself without going to jail?

[aziz]

you could collect $200, though. so it kind of works out.

[Vanflyer]

@CoffeehousePorcupine

""""And For Poulin 20........I disagree on Schenn...........Forwards are suposed to be Good Defencively also and thats where Schenns problem is, he is Very weak defencively. Now Mark Recchi was Weak defensively also, but his Offencive numbers Compensated, thats not the case with Schenn """"

I have not watched a lot of Schenn but he seems VERY good on the forecheck....aka the first line of defense. Can't really comment on coverage in his own zone but his forecheck stood out in the B's game.

Schenn has been coming on in his agressiveness. I really liked his line with JVR and Simmonds (before JVR got injured). Not that the plus / minus is the end all be all, but in Schenns first 7 games, he was a -8. Since then he is a +3. Two games in a row he led the team in hits in the NJ game and again yesterday (with sestito) at 6. He also was rewarded with his strong play by Lavy and had a season high minutes played of 18:38.

[Spinorama]

@Spinorama

i thought schenn's hit was great hockey play. i thought (Kelly?) immediately dropping the mitts was a momentum killer for the flyers. was it calculated on Kelly's part ?: did he think that was a big hit, it got the building rocking and the flyers buzzing even more, i gotta stop the momentum here . if so that sucks. i think the whole you hit my guy hard and clean now you need to answer for it , is real thug like.

i'm not a guy that's against throwing hands when it's necessary , but i don't think it's necessary when a hit is hard and clean like schenns was, now if schenn ran him into the boards, hit him 3 seconds late, okay go getcher boy's back...otherwise be ready to play like it's the playoffs today.

Schenn's hit was a phenomenal hockey play! Kelley's reaction was exactly what the Bruins needed.

If a Flyer was sent to the ice on a clean textbook style hit, I wouldn't want the O&B standing around with towels mopping up the blood of their own player that's for sure

edit:

oh and while I don't disagree with you... that may have been a clean hit but it looked like the guy was injured on the play as well. It'd be one thing if he bounced back up but that wasn't the case there.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Spinorama