Hockey's Biggest Strategic Mistake?

[WordsOfWisdom]

I'd like to see a study on the statistical validity of goalies leaving their net to play the puck for teammates. This is how I see it:

 

• Leaving the net to stop the puck for a defenceman is pointless. They can handle the puck just fine.
• By leaving the net, you create confusion for other players because they don't know what you're going to do with it.
• By leaving the net, you create a roadblock, preventing your own players from skating behind the net.
• The player is usually back there standing still waiting for the goalie to finish fooling around with the puck and make a play.
• By doing all the above, the net is EMPTY. Opposing teams who manage to recover the puck have an instant goal.

 

What's the harm in STAYING IN YOUR NET?  Who cares if the opposing player gets to the puck first? If the goalie is in goal they can't score anyway. STAY IN THE NET!

 

The only exception would be to leave the net to prevent a player from getting a breakaway. Otherwise, stop leaving the net to stop pucks behind it. 

 

[JR Ewing]

3 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

I'd like to see a study on the statistical validity of goalies leaving their net to play the puck for teammates. This is how I see it:

 

• Leaving the net to stop the puck for a defenceman is pointless. They can handle the puck just fine.
• By leaving the net, you create confusion for other players because they don't know what you're going to do with it.
• By leaving the net, you create a roadblock, preventing your own players from skating behind the net.
• The player is usually back there standing still waiting for the goalie to finish fooling around with the puck and make a play.
• By doing all the above, the net is EMPTY. Opposing teams who manage to recover the puck have an instant goal.

 

What's the harm in STAYING IN YOUR NET?  Who cares if the opposing player gets to the puck first? If the goalie is in goal they can't score anyway. STAY IN THE NET!

 

The only exception would be to leave the net to prevent a player from getting a breakaway. Otherwise, stop leaving the net to stop pucks behind it. 

 

 

This is an interesting topic.

 

That might all be true. I've not seen any major studies of it, but I've noticed some things, watching Oilers games, that have been borne out by stats. Mike Smith comes out of the net much more aggressively to cut down pucks and pass them to teammates than does Mikko Koskinen, who's not as strong a skater or passer. In their time as teammates, the Oilers get a better share of possession, shots for, expected goals scored, expected goals for percentage, scoring chances, high danger scoring chances, and take FAR fewer faceoffs in their end.

 

Koskinen's a better puck stopper than Smith, but the Oilers aren't giving up as many chances because Smith is much better at helping the team keep/get the puck out of their own zone.

 

[Puck_Pun]

Ottawa's Anderson did this all the time and this frequently caused goals (usually after he mishandled the puck and it ended up turned over)

[pilldoc]

4 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

I'd like to see a study on the statistical validity of goalies leaving their net to play the puck for teammates. This is how I see it:

 

• Leaving the net to stop the puck for a defenceman is pointless. They can handle the puck just fine.
• By leaving the net, you create confusion for other players because they don't know what you're going to do with it.
• By leaving the net, you create a roadblock, preventing your own players from skating behind the net.
• The player is usually back there standing still waiting for the goalie to finish fooling around with the puck and make a play.
• By doing all the above, the net is EMPTY. Opposing teams who manage to recover the puck have an instant goal.

 

What's the harm in STAYING IN YOUR NET?  Who cares if the opposing player gets to the puck first? If the goalie is in goal they can't score anyway. STAY IN THE NET!

 

The only exception would be to leave the net to prevent a player from getting a breakaway. Otherwise, stop leaving the net to stop pucks behind it. 

 

 

Depends on the goalie and depends on the game situation.

 

Goalie's like Brodeur / Roy / Hextall can handle the puck all they want.  Not sure what current netminders would classify as that.  Maybe Rask / Vasi / Price? 

 

Also depends on game situation.  If your team is on PP and the defense clears the puck down the ice, I have no problem with goalie leaving the crease to play the puck.  If the goalie stays in net, then the team on PP wastes time tracking down said puck and attempting a fresh rush back into the opponents zone.

 

Interesting topic none the less.

Edited March 26, 2021 by pilldoc

[WordsOfWisdom]

3 hours ago, pilldoc said:

Also depends on game situation.  If your team is on PP and the defense clears the puck down the ice, I have no problem with goalie leaving the crease to play the puck.  If the goalie stays in net, then the team on PP wastes time tracking down said puck and attempting a fresh rush back into the opponents zone.

 

Yeah I have no problem with that.  I'm referring specifically to the play that happens about 60 times in every NHL game where the goalie vacates the net to skate behind and stop the puck along the boards for a defenceman. In those 60 times where the goalie skates behind the net to stop the puck, roughly 50% of the time the goalie holds onto the puck and doesn't pass it right away nor does the goalie return to the net immediately. In those situations there is typically a "close call" where the opposing forward gets close to intercepting the pass made by the goalie to the defenceman OR the goaltender has difficulty returning to his net because of player traffic. Occasionally, the goaltender will fall behind the net or make a pass that is picked off and results in an empty net goal. If you're unlucky, then you get the bad carom off the boards where the puck comes directly out in front and the goaltender is stuck behind the net.

 

I'd say once per game on average there is a play where an opposing player has a wide open net to shoot at because the goalie is out of position and doesn't get back in time.

 

4 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

That might all be true. I've not seen any major studies of it, but I've noticed some things, watching Oilers games, that have been borne out by stats. Mike Smith comes out of the net much more aggressively to cut down pucks and pass them to teammates than does Mikko Koskinen, who's not as strong a skater or passer. In their time as teammates, the Oilers get a better share of possession, shots for, expected goals scored, expected goals for percentage, scoring chances, high danger scoring chances, and take FAR fewer faceoffs in their end.

 

I think coming out of the net to play the puck before an opposing player can get it (in front of the net) is certainly valuable.  The plays where I think the goalie should stay put are on the dump-ins or shoot-arounds where the puck is along the boards. To me, you just can't risk that the goalie will fall down behind the net, get a bad bounce, or whatever. Nothing bad can happen if the goalie stays put (at least on those plays).   

[WordsOfWisdom]

4 hours ago, Puck_Pun said:

Ottawa's Anderson did this all the time and this frequently caused goals (usually after he mishandled the puck and it ended up turned over)

 

Last night Campbell nearly threw the game away on two such plays for the Leafs.  

[J0e Th0rnton]

9 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

I'd like to see a study on the statistical validity of goalies leaving their net to play the puck for teammates. This is how I see it:

 

• Leaving the net to stop the puck for a defenceman is pointless. They can handle the puck just fine.
• By leaving the net, you create confusion for other players because they don't know what you're going to do with it.
• By leaving the net, you create a roadblock, preventing your own players from skating behind the net.
• The player is usually back there standing still waiting for the goalie to finish fooling around with the puck and make a play.
• By doing all the above, the net is EMPTY. Opposing teams who manage to recover the puck have an instant goal.

 

What's the harm in STAYING IN YOUR NET?  Who cares if the opposing player gets to the puck first? If the goalie is in goal they can't score anyway. STAY IN THE NET!

 

The only exception would be to leave the net to prevent a player from getting a breakaway. Otherwise, stop leaving the net to stop pucks behind it. 

 

Depends on the goalie.

 

Antti Niemi handled pucks like they were a live grenade and hurt thr sharks everytime he tried

 

Martin brodeur did it so well they invented the trapezoid to stop him

Edited March 26, 2021 by J0e Th0rnton

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

I'm not a huge fan of goalies overhandling the puck, but I can easily see strategic reasons why a goaltender leaves the crease to go handle one.

Now, before I go on, some very good points were already made by others I want to acknowledge...
Yes, it DOES matter the goalie  handling the puck. Like any other hockey skill, some are going to be good at it, others not so much....in fact, some are cringeworthy every time they wander off to play the puck outside their crease....and @pilldoc, Andrei Vasilevkiy is NOT a good handler at all. Not even a little.

I was commenting on that the other night where he scares the holy fruits out of me whenever he does.
He's the type of goalie that is better off simply stopping or freezing pucks, because he is elite at that....playing the puck as a defenseman, no... GTFOH with him doing that!

Another good point made was that by handling the puck, assuming the goalie is good at it, he really can offset whatever deficiencies he may have in goal because he hurries the play along out of the zone helping to ensure his team plays more in the neutral zone or the offensive zone.

As for the strategies, goalies stop pucks from ratting around the endboards to prevent the opposition from predicting and skating to the point where the puck will come out of.
By stopping it midway, yes, the goalie is creating an unpredictable situation which should be good for HIS side (I would think teams work on this, or should, during practices where certain 'tells' are used so his own player has an idea of what the goalie will do.

By coming out to play the puck, especially behind the net, the goalie does create a roadblock of sorts, again, one that should benefit his own side, because the other team isn't allowed to run the goalie or check the goalie like he was an actual defenseman.
The goalie can effectively block off an attacker and pass it to the a friendly skater of his choosing.......again, ALL assuming the goalie can handle the puck and keep it from getting picked off his stick in the first place.

Not letting the opponent get to the puck first in his own defensive zone is important because by doing so, you automatically allow the other team a potential scoring chance.

Now, all that said, teams should know their own personnel and what they are capable of.
Teams understand the pros and cons of any given defenseman, winger, or center, and have them play in roles and in situations that play to those strengths, right?
Same with goalies.

If a goalie like Mike Smith handles excellently, he gets more leeway in handling the puck, work is put in so he and his skaters understand each other in given situations, and he becomes a 3rd d-man.

Goalies like Andrei Vasilevkiy have NO BUSINESS trying to be a 3rd defenseman.....his coaches and teammates should understand that, not expect him to be that, and alter their game plans and/or playstyles in practice to handle situations where the defensemen need to be aware Vasy is 90% stay at home.

I also feel goalies should be treated like regular skaters if they choose to wander outside their blue crease or above it, or wander beyond the back of the net.
It would create a risk/reward scenario...... reward your team by speeding up possession by getting them the puck quickly by skating out of 'goalie zones', but run the risk of being checked (legally) for it, like any other skater.

But that is neither here nor there for this thread.....just something I pointing out.

Bottom line, if the goalie is a good puck handler, he can just go to town and make life miserable for opposing puck retrievers.
If he isn't, then I agree with the idea of stay in your freakin crease, leave the puck the ^%$# alone and let your defensemen handle it.
Case by case, team by team basis.

Edited March 26, 2021 by TropicalFruitGirl26

[pilldoc]

31 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

and @pilldoc, Andrei Vasilevkiy is NOT a good handler at all. Not even a little.

My bad ....

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Just now, pilldoc said:

My bad ....

 

Oh, no worries...I know I watch him a lot more than you do, game in, game out.
And believe me, sometimes the things he does out there handling pucks makes me feel I may need some of your "pez dispenser" services  

[WordsOfWisdom]

59 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

I also feel goalies should be treated like regular skaters if they choose to wander outside their blue crease or above it, or wander beyond the back of the net.
It would create a risk/reward scenario...... reward your team by speeding up possession by getting them the puck quickly by skating out of 'goalie zones', but run the risk of being checked (legally) for it, like any other skater.

 

THIS ^  

[WordsOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

I can easily see strategic reasons why a goaltender leaves the crease to go handle one.

 

I think they're bored lol. 

 

1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

he hurries the play along out of the zone helping to ensure his team plays more in the neutral zone or the offensive zone.

 

I think this is especially applicable for plays where the puck is somewhere out front of the net and the team has a power-play. Agree on this one.

 

1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

goalies stop pucks from ratting around the endboards to prevent the opposition from predicting and skating to the point where the puck will come out of.

 

THIS is the play where I think the goalie should stay put. If the opposing team fires the puck along the boards they're going to be in a foot race with the defencemen on the other team to get there first (assuming the goalie lets it go around). I think it's highly unlikely that they could shoot the puck around to a teammate without being met by a player on the other team (since everyone can follow the puck).

 

What's more likely to happen is that the goalie will bobble the puck behind the net while trying to stop the shoot around and the puck will come out front or right to an opposing player who skates out and scores on the empty net. The harder the shoot-around, the more likely the goalie is to bobble it. 

 

But it gets worse: If the shoot around hits a partition or takes a weird carom, it always kicks out in front of the net. So the goalie is caught being behind the net and the puck winds up in the slot for an opposing player to blast into the empty goal. 

 

The irony is NOBODY employs the strategy of keeping the goalie in the net, so we can't even get a comparable to see what would happen and compare strategies. There's literally NO data to collect on the alternative. It would be intriguing if at least one NHL team mandated that their goalie stay in goal on those plays and let's see what happens. Does it help them or hurt them?   

 

 

 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

I'm not a huge fan of goalies overhandling the puck, but I can easily see strategic reasons why a goaltender leaves the crease to go handle one.

Now, before I go on, some very good points were already made by others I want to acknowledge...
Yes, it DOES matter the goalie  handling the puck. Like any other hockey skill, some are going to be good at it, others not so much....in fact, some are cringeworthy every time they wander off to play the puck outside their crease....and @pilldoc, Andrei Vasilevkiy is NOT a good handler at all. Not even a little.

I was commenting on that the other night where he scares the holy fruits out of me whenever he does.
He's the type of goalie that is better off simply stopping or freezing pucks, because he is elite at that....playing the puck as a defenseman, no... GTFOH with him doing that!

Another good point made was that by handling the puck, assuming the goalie is good at it, he really can offset whatever deficiencies he may have in goal because he hurries the play along out of the zone helping to ensure his team plays more in the neutral zone or the offensive zone.

As for the strategies, goalies stop pucks from ratting around the endboards to prevent the opposition from predicting and skating to the point where the puck will come out of.
By stopping it midway, yes, the goalie is creating an unpredictable situation which should be good for HIS side (I would think teams work on this, or should, during practices where certain 'tells' are used so his own player has an idea of what the goalie will do.

By coming out to play the puck, especially behind the net, the goalie does create a roadblock of sorts, again, one that should benefit his own side, because the other team isn't allowed to run the goalie or check the goalie like he was an actual defenseman.
The goalie can effectively block off an attacker and pass it to the a friendly skater of his choosing.......again, ALL assuming the goalie can handle the puck and keep it from getting picked off his stick in the first place.

Not letting the opponent get to the puck first in his own defensive zone is important because by doing so, you automatically allow the other team a potential scoring chance.

Now, all that said, teams should know their own personnel and what they are capable of.
Teams understand the pros and cons of any given defenseman, winger, or center, and have them play in roles and in situations that play to those strengths, right?
Same with goalies.

If a goalie like Mike Smith handles excellently, he gets more leeway in handling the puck, work is put in so he and his skaters understand each other in given situations, and he becomes a 3rd d-man.

Goalies like Andrei Vasilevkiy have NO BUSINESS trying to be a 3rd defenseman.....his coaches and teammates should understand that, not expect him to be that, and alter their game plans and/or playstyles in practice to handle situations where the defensemen need to be aware Vasy is 90% stay at home.

I also feel goalies should be treated like regular skaters if they choose to wander outside their blue crease or above it, or wander beyond the back of the net.
It would create a risk/reward scenario...... reward your team by speeding up possession by getting them the puck quickly by skating out of 'goalie zones', but run the risk of being checked (legally) for it, like any other skater.

But that is neither here nor there for this thread.....just something I pointing out.

Bottom line, if the goalie is a good puck handler, he can just go to town and make life miserable for opposing puck retrievers.
If he isn't, then I agree with the idea of stay in your freakin crease, leave the puck the ^%$# alone and let your defensemen handle it.
Case by case, team by team basis.

 

TL;DR but I agree and liked it

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

TL;DR but I agree and liked it

 

Well, you can rest easy because you supported some good chit.