radoran Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 (edited) Laughton is the current 2C for the Flyers. If they'd gotten Hayes the surgery he needed last year at this time would he still be out? No, I don't think Hayes is a difference maker. If they'd gotten Ellis the surgery he needed in October, would he back back today? Reliably back next season? Hopefully Couturier's surgery pans out. Are they waiting too long to do what needs to be done for next season while worrying about a(nother) lost one? I am not a doctor nor do I play one on teevee, but I've seen where "we're trying to avoid surgery" has led before ... Thoughts? Edited February 23, 2022 by radoran 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrittyForever Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 I don't think we can answer these questions without reading the medical reports but this season is shot, so any surgeries needed before next season should be gotten on with asap. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 4 hours ago, radoran said: Laughton is the current 2C for the Flyers. If they'd gotten Hayes the surgery he needed last year at this time would he still be out? No, I don't think Hayes is a difference maker. If they'd gotten Ellis the surgery he needed in October, would he back back today? Reliably back next season? Hopefully Couturier's surgery pans out. Are they waiting too long to do what needs to be done for next season while worrying about a(nother) lost one? I am not a doctor nor do I play one on teevee, but I've seen where "we're trying to avoid surgery" has led before ... Thoughts? I think we already know the stunningly brilliant decision making skills the Flyers are famous for when it comes to players health. Clarke himself would rather have his finger chopped off than wait for the surgery. Makes for a great story at the pub over a couple of beers. Does not make for a healthy long term relationship with your finger. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer4ever Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 If these are the 3 guys you are pinning your future hopes on then IMHO the only future is barely mediocre, at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 23, 2022 Author Share Posted February 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, flyer4ever said: If these are the 3 guys you are pinning your future hopes on then IMHO the only future is barely mediocre, at best. It's not about pinning hopes - it's about how the organization* handles its players. Going back to something like telling Lindros to just get on the plane with a punctured lung. What's the point in holding off surgery for Ellis only to have him come back next season like Hayes in this one? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 9 hours ago, radoran said: Laughton is the current 2C for the Flyers. If they'd gotten Hayes the surgery he needed last year at this time would he still be out? No, I don't think Hayes is a difference maker. If they'd gotten Ellis the surgery he needed in October, would he back back today? Reliably back next season? Hopefully Couturier's surgery pans out. Are they waiting too long to do what needs to be done for next season while worrying about a(nother) lost one? I am not a doctor nor do I play one on teevee, but I've seen where "we're trying to avoid surgery" has led before ... Thoughts? I don't trust this teams medical staff .....all one has to do is look at the Lindros debacle .....enough said ..... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 9 hours ago, radoran said: I am not a doctor nor do I play one on teevee, but I've seen where "we're trying to avoid surgery" has led before ... Thoughts? I've said elsewhere, I know guys that have had back surgery and it has improved their lives dramatically. They are not professional athletes though. Every surgery comes with risk, even stupid routine dental surgeries can go wrong and lead to worse problems and sometimes even death. So, as a chicken **** who likes living on team people, I can understand not wanting to undergo a surgical procedure. Especially if rest and rehab can restore the injured area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 23, 2022 Author Share Posted February 23, 2022 6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Especially if rest and rehab can restore the injured area. Yeah, and I get this. The point I am making is the example of Hayes, who "tried to avoid surgery" then had the procedure late, didn't fully heal, went back on the ice, and has been bouncing back and forth this whole season. Like I said, I get the concept of avoiding it if rest and rehab can make the difference. It's the places where it hasn't and doesn't make the difference that seems to keep biting this organization*. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 @radoran Two things come into play imo with this, the nature of hockey players trying to play through injury and under-reporting symptoms, is problematic and most likely not to change. The other is does the organizational rot and subsequent "clean out" include a medical staff that has a poor reputation that has been earned over the years? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 2 hours ago, radoran said: Like I said, I get the concept of avoiding it if rest and rehab can make the difference. And this is where the misdiagnosis starts and well really sets them back both the player and the team. Till this end it will be a repeat cycle which we are seeing...the need to get their shat together because i expect the big 3 Coots, Hayes and Ellis need to be healthy for the 2022-23 season or well we will see just more of the same regardless if Giroux leaves and comes back... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer4ever Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 5 hours ago, radoran said: It's not about pinning hopes - it's about how the organization* handles its players. Going back to something like telling Lindros to just get on the plane with a punctured lung. What's the point in holding off surgery for Ellis only to have him come back next season like Hayes in this one? I get your point. It seems from the outside looking in the Flyers have this stubborn, frustrating ignorance about every aspect of the hockey ops. No matter how many times it bites them, they refuse to adopt to anything successful other organizations are doing. I admire and respect the loyalty to and from the alumni, it's a great club to be a part of. You can still be smart about the business of hockey and have a strong alumni club. For some reason, they refuse to be both. If they truly believe that Hayes Ellis and Coots are going to be healthy and lead them back to almost mediocre, then there really is no hope. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 24 minutes ago, flyer4ever said: If they truly believe that Hayes Ellis and Coots are going to be healthy and lead them back to almost mediocre, then there really is no hope. Not an excuse but just a reality, is they never actually got to see the team Chuckles assembled on the ice...true story....so they have made the investment and i expect since they are stuck with the contract they are going to ride this out and add the pieces to the roster as they go and see fit. As some of us said @radoran as one of them when they started this season i'm sure that Chuckles didn't include in his plan for the likes of Willman, Mayhew, Macewen, Brown, Radcliffe and Seeler in the lineup but low and behold here we are. So it is what it is now they have to find a way out the hole while trying to fix the issues within the club not an exact or an easy science...but i think they need a better coaching staff for sure with this retool. And yes i have accepted the fact that nothing above the coaching staff changes until Briere is groomed and ready and well i'm sure they will find a spot for Chuck above. It is going to change this offseason or in the near future. I am good with building around Coots and Ellis for the time being i think they set good examples when healthy of what the team needs to be successful. And if not i am good agreeing to disagree. The only thing left to do is hope eventually they find some good luck they haven't had any of that since i can't remember... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 8 hours ago, flyer4ever said: If these are the 3 guys you are pinning your future hopes on then IMHO the only future is barely mediocre, at best. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, radoran said: Laughton is the current 2C for the Flyers. If they'd gotten Hayes the surgery he needed last year at this time would he still be out? No, I don't think Hayes is a difference maker. If they'd gotten Ellis the surgery he needed in October, would he back back today? Reliably back next season? Hopefully Couturier's surgery pans out. Are they waiting too long to do what needs to be done for next season while worrying about a(nother) lost one? I am not a doctor nor do I play one on teevee, but I've seen where "we're trying to avoid surgery" has led before ... Thoughts? I honestly believe, when it comes to today's injuries and athlete's, the organization doesn't hold all the power. I don't know this to be a fact, it's just a hunch based off reports and observations. I think a lot of what happens to the players, in regards to their injuries, comes from them and their doctors. For example, lets say a certain player is under contract and hates his his current situation. Maybe the team sucks with no end in sight and he feels he isn't going to kill himself for a sinking ship. I could see that guy, and his agent, working with the doctors to keep him out of the lineup. On the flip side, I could also see a franchise who wants to tank for better position, keep a guy on the injury report, and delay their return to ensure the lineup doesn't get better. So the questions was, "Thoughts?". My answer? I have no idea EDIT: oh hey, I did have a thought. Im not used to having one so I wasn't sure what it was. anyway, I digress. Does the team get some kind of financial relief, or cap relief, for keeping guys on injured status? Edited February 23, 2022 by CoachX 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 7 hours ago, mojo1917 said: I've said elsewhere, I know guys that have had back surgery and it has improved their lives dramatically i've had brain surgery...it didn't help 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said: And yes i have accepted the fact that nothing above the coaching staff changes until Briere is groomed and ready Yes. All hail the mighty Briere. Flyer savior 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 23, 2022 Author Share Posted February 23, 2022 1 hour ago, CoachX said: . Does the team get some kind of financial relief, or cap relief, for keeping guys on injured status? See: Kucherov, Nikita - Tampa Bay Lightning... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrittyForever Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 14 hours ago, flyercanuck said: I think we already know the stunningly brilliant decision making skills the Flyers are famous for when it comes to players health. Clarke himself would rather have his finger chopped off than wait for the surgery. Makes for a great story at the pub over a couple of beers. Does not make for a healthy long term relationship with your finger. and the vilification of Clarke makes for good reading on fan boards too. Wouldn't shock me if Clarke had the finger frozen and makes people drink a shot with the finger in it as a right of passage into the inner sanctum (like that Yukon bar with the toe, look it up) BUT with the strength of the union today and the power of player agents there is zero chance he has any uber say on any surgeries. We'd hear about it and there'd be a public issue like Buffalo had with Eichel. Clarke might think "walk it off" but he really has no say on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 46 minutes ago, radoran said: See: Kucherov, Nikita - Tampa Bay Lightning... Is that a "yes" ? I dont do research...unless necessary to prove OC or Ruxpin wrong 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 2 hours ago, CoachX said: Yes. All hail the mighty Briere. Flyer savior Well like it or not but he is about the only change you are going to see in this hated front office in the next 5 years bank it. So yes unless you want this to go on forever they need to hit on Briere being their Yzerman or Joe Sakic type to build this thing into a team who should no less be in the running for it asap. It has been done before Yzerman turned the Wings around in 3 years. So will Danny B.? I hope so otherwise.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 8 hours ago, GrittyForever said: and the vilification of Clarke makes for good reading on fan boards too. Wouldn't shock me if Clarke had the finger frozen and makes people drink a shot with the finger in it as a right of passage into the inner sanctum (like that Yukon bar with the toe, look it up) BUT with the strength of the union today and the power of player agents there is zero chance he has any uber say on any surgeries. We'd hear about it and there'd be a public issue like Buffalo had with Eichel. Clarke might think "walk it off" but he really has no say on it. That would be the Sourtoe Cocktail. And they've had to replace it because someone swallowed the toe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 7 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: Well like it or not but he is about the only change you are going to see in this hated front office in the next 5 years bank it. So yes unless you want this to go on forever they need to hit on Briere being their Yzerman or Joe Sakic type to build this thing into a team who should no less be in the running for it asap. It has been done before Yzerman turned the Wings around in 3 years. So will Danny B.? I hope so otherwise.... Yzerman was trained by competent management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 7 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Yzerman was trained by competent management. Well we can't do anything about that we have to hope Danny B. finds his own way for reason i listed... ....he is our only hope like Star Wars.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: ....he is our only hope like Star Wars.... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 20 minutes ago, pilldoc said: Someone needs to fix that and put Danny's name in this...and yes i'm afraid he is our only hope... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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