Trade Talk Carle could have gotten us a first and second rounder

[Podein25]

goaltending is 80% black magic.

I knew it! I'm sending some pixie dust down to Bryzgalov. OK, it's not real pixie dust, but he'll never know. Placebos are called that for a reason you know.

[JackStraw]

Placebos are called that for a reason you know.

What's the reason?

[Podein25]

What's the reason?

Oh, please.

[JackStraw]

That's not much of a reason.

[Phillygrump]

the weakspots are faceoffs, goaltending, and the penalty kill...and in my opinion, the penalty kill is a problem becuase the goaltending is a problem.

And the fact that they show up for 2 out of 3 periods once a week. They are 27th in the league in goals against. They give up a bunch of odd man rushes. Could goaltending get hot? Sure. Like you said, I guess some fat barista could get hot in the postseason, but that is very unlikely.

By the way their PK and face-offs being a problem are pretty big problems. A lot of luck would have to go Philly's way for them to make t to the Finals. I guess your point is that the entire NHL playoffs is luck and whatever dark horse goaltender arises?

<<florida beats phoenix in 6.>>

Is that really your prediction?

[radoran]

And the fact that they show up for 2 out of 3 periods once a week. They are 27th in the league in goals against. They give up a bunch of odd man rushes. Could goaltending get hot? Sure. Like you said, I guess some fat barista could get hot in the postseason, but that is very unlikely.

By the way their PK and face-offs being a problem are pretty big problems. A lot of luck would have to go Philly's way for them to make t to the Finals. I guess your point is that the entire NHL playoffs is luck and whatever dark horse goaltender arises?

<<florida beats phoenix in 6.>>

Is that really your prediction?

I think the point is that with the right breakdown of the brackets and the right players stepping up a team like Edmonton could ride to the Cup Finals before losing their goalie and falling.

Or the Flyers could make the playoffs on a shootout on the last day of the season and run to the Stanley Cup Finals where their goalie lets in the softest of softees.

It's not dumb luck, it's specific luck.

More often than not the teams that have been the best in the regular season do better in the playoffs, but there's a reason teams don't want to parade around with the President's Trophy. Since the lockout you're more likely to lose in the first round than even make the Cup Final.

Only two winners have made the Cup Finals since the lockout and only one has won the Cup. Of the 25 winners since inception, only 11 have even made the Finals with just seven winning.

Three since the lockout haven't even made it out of the first round.

[aziz]

And the fact that they show up for 2 out of 3 periods once a week.

the flyers are NOT unique in this. a common problem across the league. not an excuse, but a reality check.

They are 27th in the league in goals against.

because they have gotten ***-like goaltending all season. 6th in total shots against.

They give up a bunch of odd man rushes.

show me one team that doesn't.

Could goaltending get hot? Sure. Like you said, I guess some fat barista could get hot in the postseason, but that is very unlikely.

so what? be a fan. have some hope. good lord. "errm, i find it highly unlikely that my team will be successful in the playoffs this year, allow me to list the reasons." jesus, people.

know what? the best odds for the cup right now are the rangers at 4:1 against. 25% chance. 75% chance they don't win. it's highly unlikely. it's a sport, there are games to be played and nothing is in stone yet. you're supposed to enjoy it, not convince yourself and others that there's no chance. phillygrump indeed, bunch of negadelphians.

A lot of luck would have to go Philly's way for them to make t to the Finals.

always, for everyone. if gaborik gets hurt, the rangers are done. defence and goaltending are great, but you have to score *some* goals to win, and without him, they don't, and given he is made of tin foil.... boston can't get its **** together right now, with essentially the same record as the flyers over the last two months. pittsburgh is malkin or bust, especially with fleury struggling recently. san jose is san jose. vancouver has the luongo question. does chicago suck, or not? week to week, can't tell. who figured ottawa to be where they are. detroit is scarey as always, but zetterberg has had an on/off switch all season, better hope the keeps it on for the next 3 months. nashville looks impressive, except they are the rangers without gaborik. can you count st louis out, another awesome defense/no offense team? it's luck all around. someone will have it, a lot won't. every team involved has serious flaws (except maybe detroit), and putting the flyers way down on the list is just typical philadelphia anti-homerism. goaltending is the one gigantic problem, but it's also the one kind of problem in hockey that can turn on a dime for no apparent reason, in either direction.

<<florida beats phoenix in 6.>>

Is that really your prediction?

**** it, why not? they're a pair of 3 seeds right now, would play paper-thin new jersey and schizophrenic chicago in the opening round if things got started right now. a few high seeds get bounced early, an injury here and there, a bad call and a lucky bounce and there we are. no crazier than calgary versus tampa '04 or edmonton/carolina in '06.

[AndyS]

Florida over PHX in the Finals???

. . .but the Flyers have no shot? Hmmm. Yeah, OK - makes perfect sense.

[canoli]

Or the Flyers could make the playoffs on a shootout on the last day of the season and run to the Stanley Cup Finals where their goalie lets in the softest of softees.

oh come on Rad, I know you're trying to make a point but what you describe is ludicrous. Never happen. Even if by some miracle a team did get in on the last day via a shootout - obviously that team has Destiny working for them and their goaltending would be the last thing to let them down in the Final.

Sorry but the producers say it's "too far fetched, the public will never buy it."

[mojo1917]

After watching the Rangers and Devils last night, wow, those teams aren't Juggernauts, by any stretch. That game was painful to watch, there was no space but there was no forecheck either. from a fan perspective you had to really be into defensive hockey to enjoy that mess.

If we get average goaltending , middle of the pack goaltending, we will be tough to deal with. i know this is a rebuilding year, but there are no teams in the east that can roll out 3 legit scoring threat lines like we can. We have guys that step up in the playoffs, 48, 28 , 68, 27 and hungry guys that want to make a name for themselves 10. 93 17 and even 21. if universe can turn it around and be average, we can beat anyone in the league, amd with the right breaks four times out of 7 for some teams we've had trouble with. i can totally see it with this group.

[canoli]

Good stuff Mo - I agree with you the Rags are certainly the favorite right now but far from unbeatable. Lundqvist was barely tested last night. 15 SOG. Come on. I liked the way the Rags shut down Kovy, I think it was their young D-man McDonough on him most of the night and he did a good job. But our guys can do that just as well.

The only thing - imho - standing in the way of the Flyers making a deep run is our starting goaltender and his backup. Limiting shots is great, improving the PK will help immensely but in the end it comes down to making saves. Like you said if he (they) does make them we've got as good a chance as anyone. If he doesn't - if he lets in early softies, spots our opponent a goal every game (or worse) it will be a short PO season for the Flyers.

[RonJeremy]

The Rangers defense do not make many mistakes,you dont get many quality shots on goal agaisnt them, they play physical and they block lots of shots, and rarely do you get a second shot on goal at Lunquist.On top of that , Lundquist doesnt give up many rebounds or bad goals, and is awesome in shootouts. Girardi Staal and McDonough are more defensively sound than any dmen we have. Our defense does not give up lots of shots, but once there is a breakdown , they are the type where guys are being left wide open for a slam dunk open net goal or blatant turnovers in front, and to a lesser degree , breakaways.On top of that, count at least one cheap goal a game from bob or Bryz.. Now they have added a behemoth enforcer to their blueline, to make it even harder for us to get near their net, and to also beat us up, since we cant even beat up Prust. We never have any sustained attack against the Rangers, and very little room to maneuver in tight.

[mojo1917]

I remember watching this team of Flyers impose their will on the Rangers for 40 minutes, On New Year's day... but not for two wtf momentum killing goals from Mike fing Rupp we win that game. and people aren't choking on girardi and stall's knob... that team is far from perfect, and i bet they don't have another gear come playoff time... we're seeing the best they have.

sorry not ready to anoint them to anything but a real good regular season team. and if their defense is so good how does john scott get ice time ?

i would take that mcdonough though he's fing good....

Edited February 28, 2012 by mojo1917

[aziz]

no, the rangers are just unbeatable. perfect in every way.

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/player/nhl/28421939#nhl/28421939

oh, wait. look at that. guys in the crease not getting cleared out, coverages getting blown, odd man breaks against. hm. weird. plus, an offense that has no teeth not named gaborik. it's almost like they are a normal hockey team with flaws and inconsistencies like any other, not the mythical incarnation of perfection some people have elevated them to since they started rolling in late december.

[JackStraw]

no, the rangers are just unbeatable. perfect in every way.

http://sports.yahoo....39#nhl/28421939

oh, wait. look at that. guys in the crease not getting cleared out, coverages getting blown, odd man breaks against. hm. weird. plus, an offense that has no teeth not named gaborik. it's almost like they are a normal hockey team with flaws and inconsistencies like any other, not the mythical incarnation of perfection some people have elevated them to since they started rolling in late december.

Blasphemer!

[Phillygrump]

so what? be a fan. have some hope.

Sure I have hope. That doesn't mean I have to be naive and ignorant to the fact that this team has glaring weaknesses that don't make me feel confident in their ability to go deep in the playoffs.

you're supposed to enjoy it, not convince yourself and others that there's no chance. phillygrump indeed, bunch of negadelphians.

I will enjoy it. I always do. I'm still being realistic. You think that everyone is equal as soon as the playoffs start? There are some teams that are better than others and the ones that aren't get deep with good defense and great goaltending. We don't have that. Just being realistic.

every team involved has serious flaws (except maybe detroit), and putting the flyers way down on the list is just typical philadelphia anti-homerism. goaltending is the one gigantic problem, but it's also the one kind of problem in hockey that can turn on a dime for no apparent reason, in either direction.

NY, Detroit, and Boston don't have glaring flaws. Callahan is having a great season to go along with Gaborik. You're basing your playoff anticipation on a ton of "ifs". If players go cold or if players get hurt of if our goaltending turns on a dime. Its essentially saying "if all of the sudden Philly gets better goaltending and defense to go along with their league leading scoring they will be great. Sure that would work except we haven't seen it happen.

because they have gotten ***-like goaltending all season. 6th in total shots against.

You're making it sound as off poor defense and goaltending is a so-so issue when it is a big issue in the postseason. Can it turn on a dime? I guess its POSSIBLE, but be realistic. Its not very plausible for it to happen.

Its not really fair for you to call me a "negadelphian". I'm excited to see my team play and I always have hope that they will win, but realistically this team is probably a few years and a few moves from being a legitimate contender. There's a lot to gain in this postseason in the way of experience for our young guys, but come on man, I don't think this is a SCF team right now. They haven't shown me a ton to disprove that.

no crazier than calgary versus tampa '04 or edmonton/carolina in '06.

Tampa was the top seed in the East that season and they won the cup. Carolina was a 2 seed and they won the cup.

I don't get what point you are trying to make unless its every team is equal once the playoffs begin and any team can change its identity just like that. That seems very unrealistic and absurd to me.

[aziz]

NY, Detroit, and Boston don't have glaring flaws.

detroit, i agree, no particular problem there. don't know there is a particular amazing strength there, but a very well rounded team.

NY? calahan might hit 60 points. gaborik is on pace for 70. and those are their top 2 guys. 6 guys total on that squad with double digit goal totals. VERY middle of the pack scoring. an issue with gaborik at any point, and they will HAVE to win games 1-0, 2-1, because they aren't going to score more than that. as i said, goaltending and defense are critical, but zero offensive depth is a big problem.

boston has been playing .500 hockey for the last two months, and hasn't put back to back wins together since january 12th. thomas's numbers have been very human over that stretch, and over the last 20 games, everyone's super hero chara has put up all of 9 points and has been a -6. boston's weaknesses aren't as specific as the rangers', outside of just being a thinner team all around, but they look like they've at least momentarily lost the mojo that made them more than the sum of their parts, and have essentially paced the flyers' performance for 6 weeks now. if the flyers are sucking with their 12-10-3 since january 1, what are the bruins doing with their 13-10-2 over the same span?

You're basing your playoff anticipation on a ton of "ifs".

yes, "if". the stanley cup playoffs are a long long series of "if"s. no team finishes the playoffs as they entered, and no breaks are neutral. the playoffs are entirely about managing the "if"s that crop up to the best of the team's ability. injuries, bouces, bad calls, hot streaks, cold streaks, sand in the tunnels, whatever. the quality of the team can be measured by their ability to handle those "if"s. i don't make predictions as a rule, because it is so random, but one thing i'm pretty sure of: the stanley cup finals will not be NYR versus vancouver. it doesn't work that way.

it's funny, this happens every year. every summer i get pissed off about the stupid deals the front office makes, and take a ton of flak for it, because the new guy is amazing and is the answer to all prayers. then, every spring, i go into the post season as optimistic as possible, and take a ton of flak for it, because the flyers suck and won't make it out of the first round, and i'm a stepford for thinking otherwise.

and this time, we have people that wanted to remove roster players for picks, because it's so hopeless. 2 points behind the 2nd place team, but it's basically already over. toss the #3 dman now so we can get a pick that has a chance of being an NHL player in 4 or 5 years, because that's the best we can possibly hope for from this season. it isn't even march yet, they're comfortably above the playoff cut line, the most offensively potent team in the league, the current confrence leaders have had a couple wobbles recently, the defending cup champs are desperately treading water, crosby is looking doubtful for the playoffs, basically every team in the east looks beatable.....but the flyers fans want the team to give up.

what is it in the water up there??

[RonJeremy]

Someone wrote we are seeing the best the Rangers have, well it seems good enough to win and its been consistent. No team is perfect ,every team has breakdowns, mistakes, etc. I just dont see the Rangers giving away games like we do. The Rangers have owned us for the last 6 games, the Rangers have been winning the majority of low scoring games, while we are winning 5-4. We have given up 60 more goals than they have. Their play is much more sound than ours. Sure they dont have much offense, but they dont need to score much to win, as you can see by their record. Just like in the old days when the Devils beat us constantly with tough solid ,physical defense, and great goaltending. On paper we were always the more talented team, but NJ beat us all the time. Im not handing them the Cup, but they have been consistent all year, and defensively sound.You dont see them getting destroyed like we did against Boston and Detroit, there are too many nights where we take off, and too many high scoring games. Defense and goaltending always win. We need a few key additions and we are as good as anyone. We are on the right path, but the defense and goaltending are in need of improvement to say the least, and we need a big shutdown center with faceoff skills.

I hate the Rangers and it burns me up to see a team that we have pushed around for 35 years, is now , not only beating us, but also beating us up.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

Pretty good article on the worth of Carle to the Flyers. Many Flyers fans don't see it this way. Read it with an open mind.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/Carles-deadline-impact.html

I like this comment:

"Lets get rid of the ignorance and stop the "turnover machine' nonsense. Carle turns the puck over less than one time per game(45). He is 20th in the league in turnovers. Behind such crappy defenseman as John Carlson(74), Brett Burns(54), Zdeno Chara(52), Keith Yandle (65), and Drew Doughty (55). If you are going to spew ignorance at least get the facts. He also leads the team in blocked shots (top 20 in the league)by a pretty healthy margin. He also leads the team in ICE TIME basically playing with whoever is the replacement of the day. Leads the team in shifts taken and total even strength time on ice. He hasn't been paired with Pronger at all this season and most of last season due to Prongers injuries so saying his stats are a result of Pronger is just blatantly ignorant and wreaks of WIP brainwashing. The stats and facts don't lie. He hasn't been "exposed" in any way and whoever says he has knows nothing about hockey."

[canoli]

interesting point / counterpoint going on - I'll be interested to read how Aziz responds.

For myself I don't agree at all that the Rags' play is "much more sound than ours" and I'm not convinced it's inherently better to win 2-1 than it is 5-4. You're noting the difference in styles between the teams and assigning the Rangers as the superior quality; I don't think it matters in the least, other than it points to the Flyers' goaltending woes.

The Devils use to beat us all the time with "tough solid, physical defense and great goaltending," that's true. But we lost too many of those games because of our perennial Achilles' Heel, which is the same today: inferior goaltending.

The other thing is, the Rangers haven't "owned us" this year. Much like the Devils' games all those years ago, we gave them at least 2 of those games by allowing ridiculously soft goals. The WC was us for grabs till Bob got beat short-side, the game when Dubinsky scored twice was a Flyers' win minus those bad goals.

Sure, the same thing may continue to play out if we meet them in the post season. But then again it may not.

[aziz]

Pretty good article on the worth of Carle to the Flyers. Many Flyers fans don't see it this way. Read it with an open mind

i mentioned those stats a few weeks ago. was told that it doesn't matter carle doesn't turn the puck over as much as chara. carle's turnover are just worse. chara, apparently, only turns the puck over when it is safe to do so.

i also pointed out carle blocks more shots that chara, weber, keith, carlson, volchenkov...he is 20th in the league, in fact...but that also didn't matter. there's a storyline to be maintained and they're sticking to it, details be damned.

[RonJeremy]

Aziz is an astute hockey person, but he is just going to come back with some sort of stats. All I know is, we cant beat the Rangers lately, and as far as different styles go, forget that part, lets just look at when the puck is in our defensive zone, and it comes to clearing the crease, eliminating rebounds and playing sound positional hockey. In that context we suck, and the Rangers are great. We leave men wide open, make blundering boneheaded plays and had the puck over. Even though we may not give up lots of shots, some of the ones we give up are practically giftwrapped, either from our dmen, or goaltenders. We play great for a certain period and then its just a total collapse. I dont see the Rangers doing that, like we do. Im hoping our two new physical dmen can change that. I just dont see our dmen shutting down guys like the Rags have done to us, we cant even get near their net. Once they took the lead, they just clamped down, while we continually blow leads. Sure I know Bryz sucks, but what do we do, if there is a buyout option this offseason, do we buyout Bryz or give him another year and possibly be stuck with that contracct. Will there be anyone better that we can get?

[mojo1917]

@RonJeremy

the way the series between the teams has gone lately that's sort of par for the course, we owned them for like 10 prior to this snap we're in now.

I think these new big guys will provide more of what the skeptics are looking for in terms of, making the front of our net an unfun place to be. i'm looking forward to the defense improving even more with them... and it's not like, as everyone likes to say here, it has sucked all year; it hasn't, it has actually been decent, but the poor play when it happens (and it happens to everyone) gets magnified by atrocious goaltending.

We keep our foot on the pedal, while they're content to chip the puck to center ice and try to counter punch on a mistake once they get a lead, myself, i'd rather dance with what brung me so to speak than going into a defensive cocoon and abandon the forecheck...

i think the rangers are a good team, don't get me wrong, but i also see a team that has really benefited from our goalies pooping the bed and not a team that has owned us. they've won ; but only the last game was a stinker and that was only until again our goalie let two behind him in three minutes kind of killing the mojo. the game was tight and back and forth and fun to watch to that point.

[mojo1917]

@AlaskaFlyerFan

thanks for posting that, if he walks we're going to have a hard time finding a guy to fill his minutes as well as he has this year. so realisticaly we're looking at needing to sign the big fish and the medium fish, provided he doesn't take the home team discount, which with wisnewski making all that dough seems unlikely.

[aziz]

Someone wrote we are seeing the best the Rangers have, well it seems good enough to win and its been consistent. No team is perfect ,every team has breakdowns, mistakes, etc. I just dont see the Rangers giving away games like we do.

well, friday against the isles. doesn't count?

the rangers have a very good team, and have been particularly strong for the last two months. that, coupled with the flyers and bruins stumbling, have put them comfortably at the top of the east. great. they weren't quite so awesome before christmas, and in all likelyhood, won't be so awesome at some point down the road. this was a team chasing the flyers just two months ago.

not to mention we're talking about playoff success, which (i hope) we all know is a far different animal than regular season success. personally, i believe the rangers inability to get any kind of secondary scoring is going to be a problem. and pressing to generate secondary scoring can unravel the defensive side of things, should they find a need to get goals from someone other gaborik. they have a certain house of cards aspect. doesn't mean it'll fall down, but i don't for a second believe they are the juggernaught you apparently do.

i mean, have you heard of the sharks? or vancouver? how long has vancouver been a terrifying team for 82 games, only to whimper out come the second season? finished with 100+ points 4 out of 5 times since 2007, but last season was the first time they made it past the 2nd round. or the caps with their 121 point season a few years back, with a 54-15-13 record...talk about not giving games away....but: they were golfing after 7 playoff games.

stop acting like the NHL playoffs are so mechanical, so predictable with simple arithmetic based on numbers in february. i presume you've been around long enough to know damn well that isn't how it works. i do not understand how that lesson gets un-learned year after year after year.

Edited February 29, 2012 by aziz