(Current rostered players on) Tort's must go list?

[OccamsRazor]

42 minutes ago, aziz said:

if torts put the dude out game after game, and he refused to play ball, resulting in the 26th worst +/- in the league, yeah, bench the a**hole (full disclosure, i have a real problem with defensemen that "lead" their team in negative +/-).  that guy isn't playing a team game.  that's the thing with torts, he doesn't tend to see the game as being won by big numbers, he sees the game being won by collective effort, 18 skaters on the same page.  naive?  maybe.  i can't help but support it, though.  18 mediocre players can do impressive things, if they are on the same page.  they HAVE to be on the same page, though.  anyone not buying in.......

 

Totally good with that. I thought that is how a winning team works.

 

[GrittyForever]

52 minutes ago, aziz said:

edit:  i should add, the team-before-name approach doesn't work very well with legitimate star players.  in those cases, that/those players actually should advise the team's character, and torts doesn't do well with that.  if you have a lineup of jobbers, he's really the guy to have at the helm.  if you have standouts on the team, though, players that really move the needle at a league-wide level, probably need to find someone else.  if the flyers pull through with their 6.5% chance at bedard, for example.  would make for a really interesting offseason for briere, because i don't know the coach and the marque would be well matched.

That's only true to some extent. Torts has had star players on past teams and at times when he was younger and even more abrasive than he is now. It definitely takes a certain type of personality to mesh with him, but as the stories go, if you are giving 100% Torts rewards you as much as a slacker gets benched. 

What we need is more Nick Foligno types (in their prime, not now), a guy who is on the record saying he loved playing for Torts.

[CoachX]

@GrittyForever

 

The problem with today's athletes, is its more about them and less about the team or fans they play for. its totally backwards

 

A coach should not have to conform to the player. The player should conform to the coach

 

It's just that simple

[RonJeremy]

11 hours ago, aziz said:

 

fwiw, i think that's exactly part of tort's approach:  his personality will override the players, in situations where the player's personality conflicts with the coach's plan.  a coach's philosophy is in a large sense a manifestation of his personality, and a team's structure and deployment is built from that.  if that coach has a player that insists on manifesting his own "-ness", that is a problem.  a fly in the ointment.  sand in the oil.

 

if torts put the dude out game after game, and he refused to play ball, resulting in the 26th worst +/- in the league, yeah, bench the a**hole (full disclosure, i have a real problem with defensemen that "lead" their team in negative +/-).  that guy isn't playing a team game.  that's the thing with torts, he doesn't tend to see the game as being won by big numbers, he sees the game being won by collective effort, 18 skaters on the same page.  naive?  maybe.  i can't help but support it, though.  18 mediocre players can do impressive things, if they are on the same page.  they HAVE to be on the same page, though.  anyone not buying in.......

 

go-my-own-way players like TDA and hayes, they deserve no time on a team desperate for an identity.  they are the opposite of a team concept.  yes, they may be able to help a team with a rock solid core, as plug-ins around the edges.  they do not, however, offer anything worth building around, and represent an actual obstacle to that end.

 

torts benching TDA changes nothing about him in terms of trade-worthiness.  no one is or was stupid enough to think he was a trade-off-free add to their team.  then and now, it is and was understood he will hurt you badly taking regular shifts, but can help in very specific situations.  a team with the luxury of building around those situations will see him as valuable now as they did before his benching.  there was never any way to showcase him as anything else.  his team leading -27 was achieved while dressing, after all.

 

the point is: yes.  torts instigated a personality pissing match with his overpaid players.  and frankly, good.  the point of a coach is to establish a team identity, and get players to buy into and execute it.  players like hayes and TDA don't do that.  they play their own game, regardless of demands, feedback or results, and so see pine.  to my mind, that's exactly correct.

 

torts didn't destroy TDA's trade value.  TDA did that all by himself.  torts just stopped letting him hurt the team further.  right on.  and that is best for the franchise.

 

edit:  i should add, the team-before-name approach doesn't work very well with legitimate star players.  in those cases, that/those players actually should advise the team's character, and torts doesn't do well with that.  if you have a lineup of jobbers, he's really the guy to have at the helm.  if you have standouts on the team, though, players that really move the needle at a league-wide level, probably need to find someone else.  if the flyers pull through with their 6.5% chance at bedard, for example.  would make for a really interesting offseason for briere, because i don't know the coach and the marque would be well matched.

I agree with your team effort scenario with Torts.  When you have a team with no game changing talent you win by out working the other team and everyone is committed to their role. Historically the Flyers never had the most talent in the league but always came to play and won through a team effort.  Perfect example 1987 Cup vs Edmonton,  they had Messier and Gretzy as their top centers , we had Sutter and Zezel. On paper we should have been blown out,.but we made up for less talent by playing a total team game.

[CoachX]

37 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Historically the Flyers never had the most talent in the league

The cup winning teams of the 70s weren't just a bunch of thugs

 

The 1979-80 Philadelphia Flyers put together an astonishing unbeaten streak that has never been matched: going 35 games without a loss. It's the longest undefeated streak in NHL history and the longest in any U.S. professional sport. The Flyers played the better part of three months without a defeat, posting 25 wins, zero losses and 10 ties from Oct. 14, 1979, to Jan. 6, 1980.

 

But I get your point. A team can win over a group with individual talent

Edited April 22, 2023 by CoachX

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

A team can win over a group with individual talent

 

I agree which is basically a huge canoe with every rower in unison. 

 

No room for passengers.

 

Some work will need to be done to move out some rosters spots and going cheaper in a few spot if nothing more than slowly shaping it for the following draft and season.

 

I can see Hayes and TDA as the only ones moved.

 

Joel Farabee -- Sean Couturier -- Owen Tippett

Elliott Desnoyers -- Morgan Frost -- Travis Konecny

Noah Cates  -- Scott Laughton -- Cam Atkinson

Nicolas Deslauriers -- Tanner Laczynski -- Wade Allison

 

Ivan Provorov -- Cam York

Travis Sanheim -- Rasmus Ristolainen

Nick Seeler -- Ronnie Attard

 

Carter Hart

Felix Sandstrom

 

Scratched: Nick Seeler , Egor Zamula

 

Try their best to move Cam Atkinson if by picking up half of his salary at the trade deadline and one of maybe Provorov or Sanheim for picks and younger prospects.

 

Waiting in line for a roster spot or injury to be called up mostly because they are waiver exempt for 2023-24.

 

Danny B has to maintain leverage best he can in every deal. Don't be forced to do something stupid ride it out and modify the roster at the same time.

 

No dumb Chuck trades.

 

 

Brink

Foerster

Lycksell

Ginning

Andrea

 

Ersson

 

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I agree which is basically a huge canoe with every rower in unison. 

 

No room for passengers.

 

Some work will need to be done to move out some rosters spots and going cheaper in a few spot if nothing more than slowly shaping it for the following draft and season.

 

I can see Hayes and TDA as the only ones moved.

 

Joel Farabee -- Sean Couturier -- Owen Tippett

Elliott Desnoyers -- Morgan Frost -- Travis Konecny

Noah Cates  -- Scott Laughton -- Cam Atkinson

Nicolas Deslauriers -- Tanner Laczynski -- Wade Allison

 

Ivan Provorov -- Cam York

Travis Sanheim -- Rasmus Ristolainen

Nick Seeler -- Ronnie Attard

 

Carter Hart

Felix Sandstrom

 

Scratched: Nick Seeler , Egor Zamula

 

Try their best to move Cam Atkinson if by picking up half of his salary at the trade deadline and one of maybe Provorov or Sanheim for picks and younger prospects.

 

Waiting in line for a roster spot or injury to be called up mostly because they are waiver exempt for 2023-24.

 

Danny B has to maintain leverage best he can in every deal. Don't be forced to do something stupid ride it out and modify the roster at the same time.

 

No dumb Chuck trades.

 

 

Brink

Foerster

Lycksell

Ginning

Andrea

 

Ersson

 

Humor me. Come up with a scenario where Laughton gets moved

[GrittyForever]

6 hours ago, CoachX said:

@GrittyForever

 

The problem with today's athletes, is its more about them and less about the team or fans they play for. its totally backwards

 

A coach should not have to conform to the player. The player should conform to the coach

 

It's just that simple

It is. But again, not all athletes are the same and some compete and listen more than others. 

 

This is why it's important to get the subtraction done early and ruthlessly. Move ALL the rot out and then go with a lot of youth. Guys who can be brought up and molded the right way. 

[pilldoc]

52 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

Move ALL the rot out

 

Been preaching that for years .......

 

JVR / TDA / Atkinson are the first ones that come to mind .....

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

Come up with a scenario where Laughton gets moved

 

He too maybe could be moved his 3 mill for 3 more years is a slight over pay but he can bump up into the top 6 if need be in a pinch.

 

He'll be 29 next season so he maybe be able to be moved i think he is a 2 mill-2.5 mill tops type of player.

 

Maybe a team close to making the playoff like a Flames or Canuck team would take him.

 

Or even the Senators nots sure of all their depth situations but if it isn't a team like that with his contract you are more likely stuck with him another year or two since he is a the prefect utility type for the bottom 6.

 

So i will say maybe but highly unlikely he gets moved this offseason.

[RonJeremy]

7 hours ago, CoachX said:

The cup winning teams of the 70s weren't just a bunch of thugs

 

The 1979-80 Philadelphia Flyers put together an astonishing unbeaten streak that has never been matched: going 35 games without a loss. It's the longest undefeated streak in NHL history and the longest in any U.S. professional sport. The Flyers played the better part of three months without a defeat, posting 25 wins, zero losses and 10 ties from Oct. 14, 1979, to Jan. 6, 1980.

 

But I get your point. A team can win over a group with individual talent

If you remember the 79-80 team, our goaile was rookie Pete Peeters and we had three older career AHL defenseman on the team, Busniak, Barnes and Bathe and our top defenseman were Jimmy Watson, Behn Wilson and Bob Dailey. Our top line was Linseman, Propp and Holmgren, while the Isles had Bossy Trottier ,Gillies and Potvin . We probably would have beaten the Islanders in a game 7 if we were not fleeced by the refs in game 6 on the offside goal and the high stick goal by Potvin.  That was just another case of a great coach Pat Quinn getting the most out of a solid but not great team. Since we probably are not getting any generational talent any time soon, the only chance we have is to build a well balanced team that is talented but with a tremendous heart and work ethic.

[GrittyForever]

3 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 

Been preaching that for years .......

 

JVR / TDA / Atkinson are the first ones that come to mind .....

Well JVR IS gone as of July. If they re-signed him I quit. Can't imagine that possibility at all. 

 

I have totally kind of forgotten about Atkinson. Is he even an issue? an he play? Will he play? idk if he's "rot", but I'm also not sure if he's fit to play. Can't see any way to trade him in any event. 

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

Can't see any way to trade him in any event. 

 

I agree but at next year's deadline with one year left on his deal maybe.

 

It would be sweet if Hayes ends up in Columbus with his old teammate Johnny Hockey...

 

...maybe they convince Atkinson to go back too to add another BC alum guy to their arsenal.

 

Wishful thinking - praying.

[radoran]

On 4/21/2023 at 9:45 PM, aziz said:

18 mediocre players can do impressive things, if they are on the same page. 

 

18 mediocre players can win a game. Maybe two.

 

They can't win three seven game series.

 

That's not all you're saying and you're not wrong but as a child of the Miracle on Ice one can't base an NHL franchise on that.

 

[radoran]

14 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

On paper we should have been blown out,.but we made up for less talent by playing a total team game.

 

And lost.

[radoran]

7 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 

Been preaching that for years .......

 

JVR / TDA / Atkinson are the first ones that come to mind .....

 

JVR is UFA, TDA is going into his second year, Atkinson replaced Voracek at a lower number.

 

"For years" is where I'm curious.

[RonJeremy]

5 hours ago, radoran said:

 

And lost.

Yes but in 79-80 the refs helped us lose and in 2010 all we needed was solid goaltending, not great goaltending and we beat Chicago. Wewent six games with bad goaltending at least we have solid goalies now but still a long way to go.

[pilldoc]

7 hours ago, radoran said:

For years" is where I'm curious.

over exaggerated to make a point…. but yes I know many on here wanted the malcontents and whatever cancer infecting this team years ago gone (not specifically the 3 I mentioned) ...  but yes I get your point.

Edited April 23, 2023 by pilldoc

[tucson83]

5 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Yes but in 79-80 the refs helped us lose and in 2010 all we needed was solid goaltending, not great goaltending and we beat Chicago. Wewent six games with bad goaltending at least we have solid goalies now but still a long way to go.

there's always a thing called offense is created by playing defense because you create more odd man rushes and you create more scoring chances, i mean yes it would be great to have the best snipers in the world but even great goalies can shut them down, you have to create more offense by getting in the dirty areas and finding ways of getting below the hash marks.