B21 Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 (edited) Good idea? Asking for a friend... Piecing together weeks worth of speculation, any deal would involve the Pens giving up Jeff Petry and/or Mikael Granlund (to make the cap work), at least one and maybe two 1st round picks and/or a young defenseman (that's you, Pierre-Olivier Joseph) and a third team to assist with said cap crunch along with San Jose retaining some of the $11,000,000 or so Karlsson is due each year for the next FOUR years. He is only 33 and is coming off the first 100 point season for a defenseman since 1992ish. Still...I dunno. Edited August 6, 2023 by pilldoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropicalFruitGirl26 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Erik Karlsson truly is the ultimate conundrum. On the one hand, his injury history and the sheer amount of cap room he will eat up is enough to scare any team into not wanting to give up a ton to get him. Also, one has to wonder what "conditions" have to be in place for him to be as successful as he can...why, for instance, he couldn't do as well working alongside another offensive defenseman like Burns, yet does better WITHOUT a player you would think should help alleviate the pressure. On the other hand, it's Erik Freakin Karlsson.... a freak of a blue liner who does play an underrated defense, but mostly acts like a top line forward on the blue line, and if things fall right, should make ANY team that has its pieces all set elsewhere, an automatic contender! Personally, I think Karlsson on the Penguins, along with the already established core, could be insanely good. IF, Karlsson doesn't contract whatever disease that didn't allow him to work well with Burns......Pens have Kristopher Joseph Pierre Irwin Letang as a top defenseman already after all! And of course, Pittsburgh will have to give up quite a bit in prospects and/or picks, and likely an established NHL'er or two, to get him. And I am not talking bottom sixers either. But, since the Pens DO want to try and squeeze at least one more Cup (maybe two!) out of their current core, I can see them saying "^%$# it....let's get Karlsson in here!", even if the long term cost may gut them. Funny thing is, I went back n forth in my head about if the Lightning could/would/should acquire him for the same reasons I posted for the Pens. Not sure the Lightning now have the assets SJ would want....Pitts probably has better young players at this point.....and yea, BOTH would need a third team to help facilitate (along with retention) all this. This Karlsson story should be very interesting to follow! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Bored at work and came across this ... take it FWIW .... Potential trade that was cancelled ...... To Pittsburgh: Erik Karlsson Sharks retain $4.5 million per season for the remaining four years of Karlsson's contract (40 percent) To San Jose: Jeff Petry Penguins' 2024 first-round pick (top-5 protected) Ty Smith Samuel Poulin Penguins' 2025 second-round pick (will upgrade to a first-round pick if Pittsburgh wins either the 2024 or 2025 Stanley Cup, and Karlsson plays at least half of the playoff games in the championship-winning run) https://www.markerzone.com/news/index.php?no=255587 Josh Yohe of The Athletic reported: "As I mentioned recently, the Penguins were extremely close to landing Karlsson on July 1. A deal was close to being completed that morning, which would have rocked the hockey world on what is already a volatile day. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropicalFruitGirl26 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 @pilldoc Haven't clicked the link, but do they explain WHY this deal was ultimately nixed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 (edited) 50 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said: @pilldoc Haven't clicked the link, but do they explain WHY this deal was ultimately nixed? Trade was nixed at the last minuted. The link in itself does not really explain why except speculating about Salary Cap implications. Scouring the internet I came of with this .... Improving the Penguins in the present by acquiring Karlsson would directly conflict with the other part of Dubas’ mandate: To rebuild the Penguins’ organizational depth, restock the puddle that passes for a prospects pool. That requires holding onto promising young players like Owen Pickering and Brayden Yager, and retaining the kind of early-round draft choices used to secure their rights. (The Penguins have had picks in Round 1 of the draft in consecutive years for the first time since 2009-2012.) Trouble is, those are precisely the type of assets the Sharks presumably would insist on receiving. Dubas isn’t going to get Karlsson for, say, Mikael Granlund, Jeff Petry and a conditional seventh-round draft choice. (Only if Fletcher was the GM of the Sharks would that be a realm of possibily ... LOL ) To make things more interesting Karlsson has four more years left on his hefty contract at $11.5 million AAV, AND he is also armed with a No-Movement Clause to boot. On Jul. 1, Dan Kingerski of Pittsburgh Hockey Now reported that the San Jose Sharks and Penguins were “very close on Erik Karlsson.” “The Penguins were extremely close to landing Karlsson on July 1,” Josh Yohe of The Athletic followed up yesterday. “A deal was close to being completed that morning, which would have rocked the hockey world.” Whatever happened, by the afternoon of Jul. 1, that deal was dead. A source indicated to San Jose Hockey Now then, “It’s not close.” https://sanjosehockeynow.com/san-jose-sharks-erik-karlsson-pittsburgh-penguins-trade-plattner-grier/ 12 days later, Karlsson still in the wind. And if Seravalli is right, he might be for a while yet. “I’m still not convinced that as much as Erik Karlsson wants a trade and the Sharks would like to move him, that it will ultimately come to pass,” the insider said. “The reason for that, the Sharks are still asking for a haul. And with his contract, even at 20 percent retained, at $9.3, 9.5 million [AAV] per year. Teams have to carve that out of their cap at this point to make something like that work. That’s an exercise in and of itself.” GM Mike Grier has said that San Jose are open to increasing their retention amount, but it’s not clear how much. And Elliotte Friedman – and Grier himself – have suggested that Sharks owner Hasso Plattner is more involved than usual in this deal, seeing that it’s his money that will pay Karlsson to play for another team. That’s understandable, but it’s also understandable that teams aren’t excited to add even a 101 point-scoring defenseman at $9 million-plus. “When you look at then adding on pieces [for] a player who’s approaching his mid-30’s and has significant injury history – teams just aren’t willing to pay it,” Seravalli stated. “So unless the Sharks are willing to come around and take less, and I believe that’s essentially where the Penguins are, it’s like hey we don’t even have anything to trade you. We have nothing. We have no picks, prospects, we have nothing,” he said. “So if you want to give him to us, we’ll take him on for 9.5 million bucks. Edited July 16, 2023 by pilldoc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notfondajane Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 On 7/15/2023 at 3:25 PM, B21 said: Good idea? Asking for a friend... Piecing together weeks worth of speculation, any deal would involve the Pens giving up Jeff Petry and/or Mikael Granlund (to make the cap work), at least one and maybe two 1st round picks and/or a young defenseman (that's you, Pierre-Olivier Joseph) and a third team to assist with said cap crunch along with San Jose retaining some of the $11,000,000 or so Karlsson is due each year for the next FOUR years. He is only 33 and is coming off the first 100 point season for a defenseman since 1992ish. Still...I dunno. I could understand Petry or Grunlund. I'm not fond of giving up picks, prospects or players with a lot of years left in their career. (I understand some don't pan out.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted July 25, 2023 Author Share Posted July 25, 2023 I'm resigned to the Pens' going "all in" - for better or worse - so long as Crosby and Malkin have a pulse. Once that era ends, we'll deal with the ashes that are left. If nothing else, they'll have a lot of cap space to work with which we know they'll use. In the meantime, if Karlsson moves the needle - and I think he does - then go get him. One thing I haven't seen mentioned by the talking heads is how Karlsson offers some insurance if Letang's medical issues surface again. The Pens don't work without Letang...especially on the PP. That's less of an issue with Karlsson on board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 1 hour ago, B21 said: One thing I haven't seen mentioned by the talking heads is how Karlsson offers some insurance if Letang's medical issues surface again. The Pens don't work without Letang...especially on the PP. That's less of an issue with Karlsson on board. that is actually a very legitimate reason for the Pens to pursue Karlsson. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 Done deal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewin Flames Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 Erik Karlsson Traded to Penguins from Sharks in 3-Team Deal with Canadiens JOSEPH ZUCKERAUGUST 6, 2023 Jonathan Kozub/NHLI via Getty Images The San Jose Sharks are trading star defenseman Erik Karlsson to the Pittsburgh Penguins. Daily Faceoff's Frank Seravalli first reported the deal, while Sportsnet's Elliotte Friedman first noted a third team could be roped in to help the Sharks and Penguins maneuver around the salary cap. Karlsson carries an $11.5 million cap hit for 2023-24, while Pittsburgh is projected to be $3.2 million over the cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 28 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Done deal. San Jose a first, Hoffman (who if you remember had a wife feud with Karlsson) Granlund and Rutta. Basically they got very little in return, three overpriced vets not only a year to go on both forwards who they can move at the deadline for assets. The big thing is getting rid of Karlsson and his massive contract. Montreal in exchange for taking on salary they get the overpriced but capable petry a second, a decent mid level prospect in legare and a quality backup goalie in DeSmith. Honestly I like their return quite a bit more than what San Jose got. Lastly Pittsburgh got Karlsson, third, a 13th forward in pitlick and a middle ng prospect. Honestly I think San Jose did a poor job, this more or less offer has been on the table for literally two months. Grier has swung two Massive deals, I felt he did ok in the Meier deal but I felt he got killed in this one. Montreal has to be grinning IMHO they killed this one. As the third party to help make the deal happen they did a great job. Pittsburgh got the best player, got rid of bloated contracts and other than a top ten protected pick gave up nothing they could not live without. This deal adds yet another aging star as the Pens have a three year window at most at the end of the Crosby/Malkin era. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 Maybe the Hoffman's can rent out the Karlsson home...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 So here is the trade: To the Pens: Karlsson (Sharks) Pitlick (Habs) Hamaliuk (Sharks) 2026 3rd Rd Pick (Sharks) To the Sharks: 2024 1st Rd Pick (Pens) Granlund (Pens) Rutta (Pens) Hoffman (Habs) To the Habs: 2025 2nd Rd Pick (Pens) Petry (Pens) Desmith (Pens) Lagare (Pens) San Jose is retaining $1.5 million of Karlsson's salary yearly. https://www.nhl.com/penguins/news/penguins-acquire-defenseman-erik-karlsson-from-the-san-jose-sharks-in-a-three-team-trade/c-345527572 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted August 6, 2023 Author Share Posted August 6, 2023 Wow. I thought for sure we would... - Have to include a 1st AND a top prospect. In the end, only had to give up the 1st... - Would only lose the salary of either Petry or Granlund. Got rid of both.... More than happy with the deal. I guess the "worst" part of it for the Pens was San Jose only eating $1.5MM per year so it's live or die with Karlsson at $10MM per for the next 4 years... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 9 minutes ago, B21 said: Wow. I thought for sure we would... - Have to include a 1st AND a top prospect. In the end, only had to give up the 1st... - Would only lose the salary of either Petry or Granlund. Got rid of both.... More than happy with the deal. I guess the "worst" part of it for the Pens was San Jose only eating $1.5MM per year so it's live or die with Karlsson at $10MM per for the next 4 years... Good deal for the Pens ...... This will be the last go around for Crosby/Malkin/Letang and company ...... I guess Ned will become your defacto back-up to Jarry. Agree ...thought for sure Pens would have to give a top prospect going back the other way..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropicalFruitGirl26 Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 Provided Karlsson can still be Karlsson, I think the Pens did real well here also. If Erik becomes an ambulance case once again, Pittsburgh's dreams of getting the Crosby core another Cup will go up in smoke, but, just basing things on what Karlsson did last year, and what he can still do when healthy, Pens should be very dangerous especially on offense.....and really, didn't have to give up much to get the elite defenseman! Can he 'play nice' with Letang in sharing the on-ice duties though? We shall see.... Habs, as the third team, did alright here. Got themselves a potential impact pick with the 2nd rounder, a solid veteran defenseman they know well in Petry, a decent battle tested goalie in DeSmith, and a 22 yr old forward, who, if he can't crack the Canadiens' bottom six, will likely be a decent addition to their AHL squad. San Jose? TBH, I am underwhelmed by what they got. Granlund and Rutta are decent enough players........for a contender. SJ is not that though. I really don't see where Granlund and Rutta, complimentary players, are gonna make the Sharks significantly more competitive when they have holes all over their lineup, and the only real get for Karlsson is that 1st round pick, which, if the Pens do well, will be a LATE first round pick, almost a 2nd. And Mike Hoffman is a far cry from the offensive force player he once was. All this waiting around, back n forth, go or no go for the Sharks and Karlsson...and THIS is the best SJ comes away with? Maybe I'm wrong, but, just color me very unimpressed, and IMO, this puts the Sharkies in 3rd place on this deal I'd like to know what our resident Sharks fan, @J0e Th0rnton thinks. Are you happy with this kind of return, JoeT?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 1 hour ago, yave1964 said: Maybe the Hoffman's can rent out the Karlsson home...... I'm glad you hit on this. I saw the trade and was highly entertained that Hoffman was going back to the Sharks in a trade for Karlsson given their history. Gotta love it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 (edited) -I'll join the consensus and say that the Pens did well here. Got Karlsson, and because they got rid of some duds at the same time, if Sid decides to call it a career during his contract they can retain 50% and jump start a rebuild. -Kind of amusing that Karlsson, at 33, makes the Pens core younger. -Montreal made out alright, and even get a piece of Petry's contract covered. -Mike Grier's best bit of work was to get Karlsson off his hands and wasn't forced into a huge retention number. It limits the immediate return in draft picks (they can recoup some if they flip the players they got today) but it gives him a lot of salary cap freedom going forward. Edited August 6, 2023 by JR Ewing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 43 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said: San Jose? TBH, I am underwhelmed by what they got. Granlund and Rutta are decent enough players........for a contender. SJ is not that though. I really don't see where Granlund and Rutta, complimentary players, are gonna make the Sharks significantly more competitive when they have holes all over their lineup, and the only real get for Karlsson is that 1st round pick, which, if the Pens do well, will be a LATE first round pick, almost a 2nd. And Mike Hoffman is a far cry from the offensive force player he once was. It was never about the stunning return in players when it came to unloading Karlsson. The Sharks got rid of him and are only retaining $1.5M. They get out of $10M for Karlsson’s last 2 years, and the contracts they took on end in 2 yrs, so there's no long term pain. And got a 1st round pick out of it. I expect Grier is happy enough. Hoffman, Rutta and maybe even Granlund should all bring something back as deadline rentals too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 46 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said: Pens should be very dangerous especially on offense.....and really, didn't have to give up much to get the elite defenseman! Can he 'play nice' with Letang in sharing the on-ice duties though? We shall see.... @ruxpin @yave1964 @J0e Th0rnton That is the real question ....where does Karlsson slot in the line-up? Pair Karlsson / Letang together? How about PP1? At first glance one would go Guentzel / Crosby / Malkin / Letang / Karlsson, HOWEVER ...Remember Guentzel is out the first part of the season. A big question remains about what happens with Letang? Letang's overall production fell in 2022-23 (41 PTS, 0.64 PTS/GP), as he only recorded 20 power-play points for the second consecutive season. Maybe we see a Crosby/Malkin/JGuentzel/Karlsson/Letang power play as I mentioned above. Does this leave Rakell the odd man out? Rakell also picked up 21 power-play point during the 22-23 season, so him being dropped from PP1 shouldn't be a given, especially if Letang has truly lost a step at age 36. Also note that Letang and Rakell could both start the season on the first power play because of Guentzel's injury. The Penguins often don't seem to have all of their big guns in the lineup at the same time anyway, and Karlsson's injury history has been well-documented as has often been the case for Malkin and Letang in particular. Again good trade from the Pens perspective, but all 3 have had injury issues the past few seasons. Curious from a FHL perspective does this mean to expect a drop in points for both Karlsson and Letang? Agree @TropicalFruitGirl26 ...would love to hear @J0e Th0rnton take on this trade. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 On a side note ....this brings a very interesting development to the Habs goaltending situation. Assuming Price's career is all but over, this trade now brings yet another goalie to the fold. Desmith adds to what appears to be a crowded Montreal goalie crease with no true starter. Allen and Montembeault were already in the fold, while young gun Cayden Primeau will now need to clear waivers, if I read that correctly somewhere, if he doesn't make the team and needs to be sent to the AHL. I could make an educated guess that one or more of these goalies, including Desmith, could very well be traded before the season starts. Its been proven that Allen is a better netminder when not having to shelter a big load. Prior to the trade I was looking at Allen/Montembeault as having 50/50 starts. Throwing DeSmith in there muddy's the water a bit. Primeau might very well be the Habs starter in the future, but he may need 1 more year in the AHL where he would compete against highly touted prospect Jakub Dobes. (However, I seriously doubt he clears waivers). It is understandable that he had some issues in his play in recent seasons, as he was never allowed to settle into a starters’ role in Laval. Going back and forth between NHL and AHL is difficult. So IMO one of either Allen / DeSmith / Montembeault must be moved if the Habs want to retain Primeau....... From a Pens Goalie perspective the Pens have run the Jarry / DeSmith combo for several years. There's trust in the organization in the duo. Picking up Ned is the insurance policy for the pending Jarry injury we all know is coming. The Pens must feel Ned >>>> DeSmith. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, pilldoc said: Desmith adds to what appears to be a crowded Montreal goalie crease with no true starter DeSmith gives Montreal a goalie to send back in a trade for Carter Hart. Fully story at 11. Edited August 6, 2023 by ruxpin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 14 minutes ago, ruxpin said: DeSmith gives Montreal a goalie to send back in a trade for Carter Hart. Fully story at 11. OMG .... could you imagine the ruckus/rioting that would cause among the fan base ...... that would be a classic Fletch move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 1 hour ago, pilldoc said: That is the real question ....where does Karlsson slot in the line-up? Pair Karlsson / Letang together? How about PP1? They both play the right side, so they'll probably only share the ice for power-plays or empty net situations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notfondajane Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 2 hours ago, B21 said: Wow. I thought for sure we would... - Have to include a 1st AND a top prospect. In the end, only had to give up the 1st... - Would only lose the salary of either Petry or Granlund. Got rid of both.... More than happy with the deal. I guess the "worst" part of it for the Pens was San Jose only eating $1.5MM per year so it's live or die with Karlsson at $10MM per for the next 4 years... I tend to agree with your statement. The only thing I didn't like is giving up a 1st round pick. (I understand some don't pa out!) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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