Game 23: New Jersey Devils at Philadelphia Flyers; 11/30/23 @ 7 PM, NBCSP

[flyercanuck]

7 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

I see what you mean now. But where the Flyers sit in the standings is only tangentially related to the rebuild. In other words they're basically a .500 team but that doesn't mean it was Jones/Briere's intentions, to get the team back to mediocre. The team is .500 instead of .250. Why does that signify a failure of management to you? You say "we forgot to get...." as if the roster is a finished product. You must know it's not.

 

And if you're dreaming of the #1 overall by "tanking" I think that's a fool's errand. The bouncing balls give at best a 25% shot at picking first.

 

Don't you think Jones/Briere have accomplished a lot in the short year they've been in charge? We both noted recently that the roster is almost rid of the Fletcher flops. The Flyers have done some housecleaning, a mandatory first step in the rebuild.

 

The holes you mentioned will eventually have to be filled when the time comes...probably year 3 of the rebuild when Michkov (hopefully he makes it) and Gauthier are in the O&B.

 

So take a pill - smoke a smoke - have a drink - take a deep breath whatever . I promise you the Flyers are not done rebuilding.

 

Well Jones and Briere got rid of most of Fletchers complete failures, not to mention the biggest failure of it all...Fletcher is gone. But that isn't anything brilliant....I mean I'm no NHL GM and I could see for miles and miles every one of those signings and trades were plain stupid. And they took Michkov, who I'd have taken even if we picked 3rd overall.  So if you're saying Briere and Jones have common sense, ok. 

 

But usually those elite centres (the ones you see hoisting the cup) go 1st overall. Once we get Gauthier and Michkov, this team isn't picking 1st overall.  Which is why NOW is the time to get those high draft picks. 

 

I don't need a pill...hell, once Fletcher had his stink all over the team I just quit watching. I just want to see them win another cup. You don't do that with mediocre teams. 

[flyercanuck]

20 hours ago, tucson83 said:

 

yes thank you, agree 100 percent and let's bring another team that has a ton of top 5 picks and havent gone anywhere which is the Edmonton oilers, it means nothing if you have top 5 players, you need depth, all cup teams have depth, like if crosby was that special why did take another 7 years for him to win another cup? the maple leafs hasnt won anything with two top 2 centers, it's like no one is looking at what do these cups teams have that these teams like superstars cant over the hump dont have?

 

heck the kings, bruins, blues, golden knights didnt have crosby and kane stars and still won cups. like we have to find other ways to win rather than relying on getting the first overall pick because i guarantee if we tank, we will never have a chance of making it into the playoffs. i would rather make the playoffs and add proven stars to get this team over the hump rather than to never make the playoff in 20 plus years all because tank obsessed fans want dynasty and that's impossible in a cap world because you will lose players, that's over and fans have to get over that mentality.

 

 Then again, you thought Fletcher was doing a good job. The main reason the Flyers are better is because they undid everything you thought was a good move by the worst GM in Flyer history, and arguably NHL history.

 

The Kings had a stud #1 defenceman, a rock in net, and a great 1,2,3 punch at centre. The Bruins had arguably the greatest 2 way centre the game has ever seen and a stud #1 defenceman. The Blues had a great 1,2,3 punch at centre, a stud #1 defenceman and a red  hot goalie. I already said Vegas wasn't built like any other team in NHL history, and no winner will ever be built like them again. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by flyercanuck

[flyerdog]

It's rather frightening how routinely we lost in OT against NJ...Jack Hughes reminds me of Stamkos, kid id scary good

can you imagine if the current devils team still had a Brodeur-like Goalie?

 

Gotta love the resolve the team showed to fight back and tie...and does anyone know (exactly) what Farabee did to get benched? I didn't see the first period so...

 

whatever it was...must have been egregious...

 

 

[GratefulFlyers]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

So if you're saying Briere and Jones have common sense, ok. 

what I said was they “accomplished a lot” and if you want to minimize it that’s your privilege but the accomplishments go beyond common sense moves, jettisoning the terrible Fletcher contracts. Briere managed to trade them for good players whose value will only increase at the TD. I think he and Jones have done exceptionally well, especially considering they’re both rookie managers. So far so good.

As for drafting a top-line center, Celebrini is the obvious pick. So what’s the plan? How do the Flyers land that pick? Fire Tortorella and hire a coach who will only play the rookies? Trade Hart for Campbell? What?
 

dream sequence…So it’s all come true. Somehow you managed it and they finish dead last…and the bounce gives the Flyers the 2nd pick. Duh. Celebrini dons his Blackhawks sweater and you’re stuck with crap goaltending, a HC who doesn’t know his ass from his elbow and a rink full of empty seats.  
 

Me I’ll be happy if the Flyers draft one of the D prospects this summer. 2-10 has some good D-men and Briere, using assets he picked up last summer, should be able to acquire a top-10 pick, assuming the Flyers don’t qualify for one of their own.

 

Meanwhile watch some Flyers’ games it’ll do you good! And since you usually know what you’re talking about - not this time but generally - it would do the forum good too. 
 

Edited December 2, 2023 by GratefulFlyers

[flyercanuck]

11 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

what I said was they “accomplished a lot” and if you want to minimize it that’s your privilege but the accomplishments go beyond common sense moves, jettisoning the terrible Fletcher contracts. Briere managed to trade them for good players whose value will only increase at the TD. I think he and Jones have done exceptionally well, especially considering they’re both rookie managers. So far so good.

As for drafting a top-line center, Celebrini is the obvious pick. So what’s the plan? How do the Flyers land that pick? Fire Tortorella and hire a coach who will only play the rookies? Trade Hart for Campbell? What?
 

dream sequence…So it’s all come true. Somehow you managed it and they finish dead last…and the bounce gives the Flyers the 2nd pick. Duh. Celebrini dons his Blackhawks sweater and you’re stuck with crap goaltending, a HC who doesn’t know his ass from his elbow and a rink full of empty seats.  
 

Me I’ll be happy if the Flyers draft one of the D prospects this summer. 2-10 has some good D-men and Briere, using assets he picked up last summer, should be able to acquire a top-10 pick, assuming the Flyers don’t qualify for one of their own.

 

Meanwhile watch some Flyers’ games it’ll do you good! And since you usually know what you’re talking about - not this time but generally - it would do the forum good too. 
 

 

 Who are the good players we got?  Hayes brought in a 6th rounder, Deangelo? Bought him out. We got Walker for Provorov, ok, but we also took on Cal Petersons terrible contract. So the "good players" Briere got was Walker. Period. Draft picks were also included, but those aren't good players whose value will only increase at the deadline. 

 

I'll take Briere over Fletcher any day, don't get me wrong. I said during his tenure I'd take a Wendys manager over Fletcher. But the best thing Briere has done is doing the non-Flyer thing of drafting Michkov. I think he's going to be a good one, but taking arguably the 2nd best talent in the draft at 7th overall is common sense, not anything exceptional. The GM of Chicago wasn't brilliant taking Bedard...he'd be an idiot not to. And yes a few teams ahead of Philly passed on Michkov and I'm sure they'll regret it...that doesn't make Briere and Jones smarter.

 

I've never wanted to trade Hart. I'm on record as saying unless you're blown away by an offer, which is highly unlikely, keep him. But there are veteran players we could move who could bring in quality picks/prospects we could use when guys like Michkov/Gauthier/Bonk are ready that would also presently move us down a notch or two in the standings (up in the draft). 

 

We don't NEED to get Celebrini, and this draft is defencemen heavy. But we don't need another Cam York, we need a #1. Which you are way more likely to get picking higher than middle of the pack - see our entire draft history. THIS is the time to get top end talent...not when our top end talent is on the team and you're trying to make your move up the standings. Maybe Briere can swing that deal, but at this point all he's done is thrown out the trash...which, come on, is nothing exceptional. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by flyercanuck

[tucson83]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Who are the good players we got?  Hayes brought in a 6th rounder, Deangelo? Bought him out. We got Walker for Provorov, ok, but we also took on Cal Petersons terrible contract. So the "good players" Briere got was Walker. Period. Draft picks were also included, but those aren't good players whose value will only increase at the deadline. 

 

I'll take Briere over Fletcher any day, don't get me wrong. I said during his tenure I'd take a Wendys manager over Fletcher. But the best thing Briere has done is doing the non-Flyer thing of drafting Michkov. I think he's going to be a good one, but taking arguably the 2nd best talent in the draft at 7th overall is common sense, not anything exceptional. The GM of Chicago wasn't brilliant taking Bedard...he'd be an idiot not to. And yes a few teams ahead of Philly passed on Michkov and I'm sure they'll regret it...that doesn't make Briere and Jones smarter.

 

I've never wanted to trade Hart. I'm on record as saying unless you're blown away by an offer, which is highly unlikely, keep him. But there are veteran players we could move who could bring in quality picks/prospects we could use when guys like Michkov/Gauthier/Bonk are ready that would also presently move us down a notch or two in the standings (up in the draft). 

 

We don't NEED to get Celebrini, and this draft is defencemen heavy. But we don't need another Cam York, we need a #1. Which you are way more likely to get picking higher than middle of the pack - see our entire draft history. THIS is the time to get top end talent...not when our top end talent is on the team and you're trying to make your move up the standings. Maybe Briere can swing that deal, but at this point all he's done is thrown out the trash...which, come on, is nothing exceptional. 

 

you cant tell players to lose, they want to win which you cant accept. you act like young defenseman are going to become superstars overnight and you dont know how good they are going to be, example buffalo, heck you might draft another provy type of player if we were really bad, i would rather trade for one, who? i dont know, trust the fo because if you cant trust anyone, i dont know why you are rooting for this team?

[flyercanuck]

22 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

 

you cant tell players to lose, they want to win which you cant accept. you act like young defenseman are going to become superstars overnight and you dont know how good they are going to be, example buffalo, heck you might draft another provy type of player if we were really bad, i would rather trade for one, who? i dont know, trust the fo because if you cant trust anyone, i dont know why you are rooting for this team?

 

Not asking players to lose. 

 

I'd trade any of our defencemen for either of Buffalos top 2, so what are you talking about? 

 

Provy was a good defenceman...until Philly "developed" him. 

 

I've been rooting for this team probably longer than you've been alive. I want them to win a cup, not just make the playoffs.

[GratefulFlyers]

51 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

all he's done is thrown out the trash...which, come on, is nothing exceptional. 

 

Walker, Poehling, Hathaway and Staal. Staal is borderline; the other 3 should bring back value, especially Walker; he's a perfect rental and every PO team will want him.

 

Anyway before the management changes the Flyers were in the toilet in every way imaginable. Now they're giving the very best rosters in the league real competition, a good hard fight. Briere/Jones have been on the job for 6 months. Tortorella is coaching his first season for the Flyers. What more do you want? You're not watching so you don't know how remarkable the turnaround already is. Players are actually developing their games...in the O&B believe it or not.

 

You want high draft picks. We all do. The question is what do you sacrifice to get them? You hate Tortorella and you knock the rebuild because the Flyers aren't "tanking." If you never said "Flyers" and "tank" in the same sentence I take it back - but aren't you calling for exactly that?

 

You say "now's the time to get top-end talent." How exactly? You don't want to trade Hart. What  about TK? What's your plan to ensure the Flyers get a high pick?

 

 

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

Walker, Poehling, Hathaway and Staal. Staal is borderline; the other 3 should bring back value, especially Walker; he's a perfect rental and every PO team will want him.

 

Anyway before the management changes the Flyers were in the toilet in every way imaginable. Now they're giving the very best rosters in the league real competition, a good hard fight. Briere/Jones have been on the job for 6 months. Tortorella is coaching his first season for the Flyers. What more do you want? You're not watching so you don't know how remarkable the turnaround already is. Players are actually developing their games...in the O&B believe it or not.

 

You want high draft picks. We all do. The question is what do you sacrifice to get them? You hate Tortorella and you knock the rebuild because the Flyers aren't "tanking." If you never said "Flyers" and "tank" in the same sentence I take it back - but aren't you calling for exactly that?

 

You say "now's the time to get top-end talent." How exactly? You don't want to trade Hart. What  about TK? What's your plan to ensure the Flyers get a high pick?

 

 

 

 

Already said Walker was a good player in a trade, but came with a bad contract. The other 3 didn't come in trades for Fletchers bad contracts. Poehling and Hathaway look like decent pickups...Staal looks like a bust. Again, I think we're all in awe of Briere just not being completely raped in everything he does like his predecessor, so maybe it does look "exceptional". But none of that really is now is it? Exceptional?

 

I've said they're improved. They were improved the second they fired Fletcher. It wouldn't matter who they brought in. I've said what I want...a rebuild. Not Return of the Son of "Let's try and sneak into the playoffs and anything can happen" part 32 version 12 the sequel. Which seems like what we're getting, isn't it? Tortsie is in his 2nd year here, not first. Not nitpicking, just stating a fact. I didn't watch last season...I've watched this season. Philly is 12-10-2  26 points this year. Last season at the 24 game mark, they were 8-11-5  21 points. A "remarkable" 5 point difference. Just knowing you aren't playing under Fletcher should have given them that...at least. 

 

 As I've said, you trade some vets for picks. Konecny is my favorite current Flyers. Couturier is a good player. Atkinson is decent. Just off the top of my head, are those 3 going to be integral parts of the team when they are (hopefully) actually contending? Not likely...Couturier and Atkinson are already past his their best before dates. Konecny is likely at his peak value. Walker. Moving them brings in more draft capital. And more than likely moves us up the draft board. Which, in the long run, hopefully gets us bigger impact players.

 

You're a knowledgeable hockey guy, you already know this. 

 

Or, we can continue being a middle of the pack team, getting middle of the pack draft picks, and hoping we win a cup, like the last FIVE DECADES! 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by flyercanuck

[tucson83]

22 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 

Already said Walker was a good player in a trade, but came with a bad contract. The other 3 didn't come in trades for Fletchers bad contracts. Poehling and Hathaway look like decent pickups...Staal looks like a bust. Again, I think we're all in awe of Briere just not being completely raped in everything he does like his predecessor, so maybe it does look "exceptional". But none of that really is now is it? Exceptional?

 

I've said they're improved. They were improved the second they fired Fletcher. It wouldn't matter who they brought in. I've said what I want...a rebuild. Not Return of the Son of "Let's try and sneak into the playoffs and anything can happen" part 32 version 12 the sequel. Which seems like what we're getting, isn't it? Tortsie is in his 2nd year here, not first. Not nitpicking, just stating a fact. I didn't watch last season...I've watched this season. Philly is 12-10-2  26 points this year. Last season at the 24 game mark, they were 8-11-5  21 points. A "remarkable" 5 point difference. Just knowing you aren't playing under Fletcher should have given them that...at least. 

 

 As I've said, you trade some vets for picks. Konecny is my favorite current Flyers. Couturier is a good player. Atkinson is decent. Just off the top of my head, are those 3 going to be integral parts of the team when they are (hopefully) actually contending? Not likely...Couturier and Atkinson are already past his their best before dates. Konecny is likely at his peak value. Walker. Moving them brings in more draft capital. And more than likely moves us up the draft board. Which, in the long run, hopefully gets us bigger impact players.

 

You're a knowledgeable hockey guy, you already know this. 

 

Or, we can continue being a middle of the pack team, getting middle of the pack draft picks, and hoping we win a cup, like the last FIVE DECADES! 

 

 

what is your goal here? be a dynasty? winning one cup isnt good enough for you?

Edited December 3, 2023 by tucson83

[flyercanuck]

23 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

 

what is your goal here? be a dynasty? winning one cup isnt good enough for you?

 

Where's the one cup? 

 

Nevermind, found it.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by flyercanuck

[mojo1917]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Provy was a good defenceman...until Philly "developed" him.

No, he was good but his ceiling and his floor were the same level. 

His game didn't grow. 

I don't think he's coachable.

He's not great in Columbus since he's been traded, his partner there was a true top pairing guy until he got hurt. Provy keeps making the same mistakes then pouts when he's called on it.  He's not a PP QB- But he thinks he's Sergi Zubov.

He's slow to react on shots, zone keeps and calls his own number so much he's easy to play against. 

He was a big part of the rot IMO,  he was fine, it was his teammates that needed to improve. 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by mojo1917

[tucson83]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Where's the one cup? 

 

Nevermind, found it.

 

im just asking a simple question, you cant handle a team winning one stanley cup, it has be 5 cups in row like the islanders? simple yes or no?

[flyercanuck]

28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Provy was a good defenceman...until Philly "developed" him.

 

28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

No, he was good but his ceiling and his floor were the same level. 

 

 

 

So we agree....he was good. 

 

His first 4 years on the Flyers he was looking the best defenceman we'd drafted since, what, Behn Wilson? 

 

He's not that good anymore.

[flyercanuck]

13 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

im just asking a simple question, you cant handle a team winning one stanley cup, it has be 5 cups in row like the islanders? simple yes or no?

 

That isn't a question, it's an opinion you have that is wrong.

 

 Can I handle a team winning one Stanley Cup?  Which team? The Flyers? It's all I want....ONE...STANLEY....CUP. Been saying it for years. And years. And years. And years. 

 

I'm just asking a simple question...what did you think was so brilliant about Chuck Fletchers moves? Was it Hayes 7 year contract to have him not backcheck, like he hadn't his most of his career?  Was it bringing in Tony Deangelos sparkling personality to the team? His brilliant trades that sent draft picks and players out, for lesser players? His ability to find guys ready for LTIR and acquire them by the shipping container? Overpaying and over terming players? All of the above? 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by flyercanuck

[Podein25]

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

all I want....ONE...STANLEY....CUP

 

Greedy bastard! All I want is a 72' plasma strapped to the roof of a 1986 Lumina with a trunk full of halibut.

[mojo1917]

8 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 

 

So we agree....he was good. 

 

His first 4 years on the Flyers he was looking the best defenceman we'd drafted since, what, Behn Wilson? 

 

He's not that good anymore.

I  don't think he's bad.

 

And i don't think its anyone's fault but his own that hes still the player he was in Brandon.

 

The Flyers didn't ruin him.

 

He's not as good as he thinks he is and hasn't seemed to listen to anyone who has tried to help him take the next step

 

It's the curse of the physically talented with that guy.

 

 

 

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

 

Greedy bastard! All I want is a 72' plasma strapped to the roof of a 1986 Lumina with a trunk full of halibut.

 

We're talking reality here Pods, not some far fetched I Dream of Jeannie fantasy that you know could never happen....apart from the TV of course.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I  don't think he's bad.

 

And i don't think its anyone's fault but his own that hes still the player he was in Brandon.

 

The Flyers didn't ruin him.

 

He's not as good as he thinks he is and hasn't seemed to listen to anyone who has tried to help him take the next step

 

It's the curse of the physically talented with that guy.

 

 

 

 

You're right, he isn't bad. He's just not as good as he was his first few years in Philly. 

Maybe. But I don't think Fletchers term helped anyone on the Flyers with their development. I guess it's up for debate whether he impacted them negatively, but it has to be tough working for an imbecile.

Edited December 3, 2023 by flyercanuck

[mojo1917]

3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

But I don't think Fletchers term helped anyone on the Flyers

It was as bad as you predicted. 

 

[flyercanuck]

1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

It was as bad as you predicted. 

 

 

Maybe worse. Thankfully it's all just a bad nightmare now.

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

 

Greedy bastard! All I want is a 72' plasma strapped to the roof of a 1986 Lumina with a trunk full of halibut.

Post of the day!!!

[GratefulFlyers]

@flyercanuck

 

okay fair enough maybe I missed it before but this is the first I’ve seen where you name the players who the Flyers should trade. Curious why not add Hart since you’ve jettisoned every other impact player. But okay, I get you.
 

6 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

I've said what I want...a rebuild. Not Return of the Son of "Let's try and sneak into the playoffs and anything can happen" part 32 version 12 the sequel. Which seems like what we're getting, isn't it?

Honestly no it doesn’t feel that way to me at all. I’ve watched most of the games, tuned into a good number of post-games and I get an entirely different impression, not just from 2nd-year HC (thank you) Tortorella and the players but from the whole organization. 
 

TK and Hart I wouldn’t move unless the return was ridiculous. Not because they’re my 2 favorites but because I believe - correction I know - they’re special players and not easily replaceable. But the rest of your targets, Couturier (good luck) Atkinson etc I’m with you, trade them for picks. The picks are more valuable to the Flyers right now.

 

Apparently I’m just more satisfied than you are with what they’ve done. If they’re hedging their bets by keeping Couturier I don’t begrudge them that. He’s a lifelong Flyer, a fan favorite not to mention he was hurt and untradeable while on LTIR (I think). 
 

Again I say they’re not done rebuilding. And I don’t agree that what they have done so far isn’t a “real rebuild.” I think it is and it’s, for all intents and purposes (once more from the Carpenters) “…only just begun”… God could she sing!

[flyercanuck]

1 minute ago, GratefulFlyers said:

@flyercanuck

 

okay fair enough maybe I missed it before but this is the first I’ve seen where you name the players who the Flyers should trade. Curious why not add Hart since you’ve jettisoned every other impact player. But okay, I get you.
 

Honestly no it doesn’t feel that way to me at all. I’ve watched most of the games, tuned into a good number of post-games and I get an entirely different impression, not just from 2nd-year HC (thank you) Tortorella and the players but from the whole organization. 
 

TK and Hart I wouldn’t move unless the return was ridiculous. Not because they’re my 2 favorites but because I believe - correction I know - they’re special players and not easily replaceable. But the rest of your targets, Couturier (good luck) Atkinson etc I’m with you, trade them for picks. The picks are more valuable to the Flyers right now.

 

Apparently I’m just more satisfied than you are with what they’ve done. If they’re hedging their bets by keeping Couturier I don’t begrudge them that. He’s a lifelong Flyer, a fan favorite not to mention he was hurt and untradeable while on LTIR (I think). 
 

Again I say they’re not done rebuilding. And I don’t agree that what they have done so far isn’t a “real rebuild.” I think it is and it’s, for all intents and purposes (once more from the Carpenters) “…only just begun”… God could she sing!

 

Hey, we don't agree on how they should go about everything, but it doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion. 

 

The reason I wouldn't trade Hart is because it's so hard for the Flyers to find a decent goalie, and he's young enough to still be good in a few years when hopefully things come together. I'd only trade Konecny for an overpayment by the way...love his game.

[GratefulFlyers]

Same here, I disagree with your evaluation of the rebuild but I certainly respect your viewpoint. 
 

edit: and yes, Hart needs to stay in the O&B until he wins the Conn Smythe! 
 

Edited December 3, 2023 by GratefulFlyers