Bryz fed up with scrutiny in Philly...

[radoran]

true. that would be me.

edit: ok, "incapable of being an NHL goaltender" is a bit much. "incapable of being an above average goaltender" is more my true feeling. like i've said before, my opinion on his past success is that he benefited from defenses built to order. the flyers could replicate those conditions, but that would mean suter and no carle, it would mean no more dmen pinching on the forecheck, and it would mean a tether on the forwards reducing or eliminating the quick transition game that is so much a part of their offensive success recently.

anyway, my initial post about "what positives" was, again, responding to the guy who was upset we weren't taking the positives from the article being discussed. because i didn't see any. at best, i saw a guy shrugging failure off like it was no big deal and saying he'd try harder next season.

In retrospect, I do see the context of the post better.

Not that it's different from what you have said in the past.

Call me crazy, but I do find the Atlantic Division in the Eastern Conference to be a slightly different kettle of fish than the Western Conference's Pacific Division - despite the fact that the Conference Finalists are from those two divisions.

Phoenix had fewer points this year with Journeyman Smith than in the past two with Bryzgalov. LA squeaked into the playoffs (sound familiar?) despite having a Vezina nominee.

The Atlantic is by far the dominant division in the league. The play is different. The expectations are different. it's going to be, forgive me, a different experience for a player that has spent their entire career in Anaheim and Phoenix.

I saw a notably different goaltender in the second half of the year. I saw improvement in reaction time, in lateral speed and in just about every aspect of the game but puck-handling.

I'm on record several times that he should be tethered to the goal and not allowed to play the puck.

I do not argue that he was worth the $10 Million the Flyers practically forced upon him this season. I don't feel any player is worth that money. None. Zero.

I do not argue that he was worth the cap hit for much, if not most, of the season. I wouldn't necessarily invest that number in a goaltender.

I do not argue that the nine-year contract the Flyers practically forced upon him was a good idea.

I do not argue that Bob was such a disaster last season that it required the panic move the Flyers made.

I do argue that Flyers fans place ridiculous expectations on their goalies. I do argue that you and others overstate the problem with Bryzgalov. I do argue that you and others gloss over the bright spots on the resume and highlight deficiencies. I do argue that Bryzgalov can play better, has played better and did play better.

And we'll find out, because ain't nothin' gonna change.

[aziz]

Phoenix had fewer points this year with Journeyman Smith than in the past two with Bryzgalov.

true, but...by 2 points, this year versus last. don't know there's a lot in the way of a profound difference between the two. close enough, imo, to say phoenix had essentially the same result with journeyman smith as it did with bryzgalov. more wins by smith, actually; labarbera had a rough go this season.

The Atlantic is by far the dominant division in the league. The play is different. The expectations are different. it's going to be, forgive me, a different experience for a player that has spent their entire career in Anaheim and Phoenix.

i agree, absolutely. well, ok, not absolutely, because i don't agree with what i think you are getting at. i think it makes for a closer to apples and apples comparison when putting a goalie on the same platform with lundqvist, broduer, fluery. i *don't* think it's the kind of change that requires some kind of extended adjustment period. the goal is the same size, the boards are the same distance away, the puck weighs the same, the mechanics of stopping pucks are all the same. a guy flipping conferences has to learn new shooters, but beyond that it's all the same. well, less travel in the east. and there *are* different expectations, because most of the fan bases actually care about how their team does in the east. but, really, fan pressure should not be an issue for a professional athlete. if it is....it's like a singer in a rock band who can't handle playing in front of people. you picked the wrong career. buddy. if you want to do this thing professionally at the highest level, the crowd can't be an issue. if the thesis i think you are suggesting is correct, and a year's worth of being exposed to it makes all the butterflies go away, then no harm no foul on that front, i guess. given he has been playing in front of 15,000+ people for 7+ years, though, i think it's a red herring.

I saw a notably different goaltender in the second half of the year. I saw improvement in reaction time, in lateral speed and in just about every aspect of the game but puck-handling.

and i didn't. i saw a goalie who was exposed to a narrower shot selection from opponents due to an enhanced defense, and his mobility-related deficiencies simply weren't on display the way they were at other times during the season. i *did* see more confidence and fewer full-on bad goals, but i did not see any improvement in his physical or techinical capabilities. i guess we'll just have to shelf that one until next season and see how things go. i expect cross-slot passes to eat him alive every time. we'll see.

I do argue that Flyers fans place ridiculous expectations on their goalies.

i really don't think i do. here's what i expect: if the flyers have opted to not make their goaltender a central piece of their roster by way of dedicating a significant chunk of cap space to him, then i expect the goalie to be stable, making all the stops an average goalie should be expected to make. if he can't keep up with high end playmaking and allows goals that only elite goaltending should track down, that's fine. he did his job as the team envisioned when they constructed the roster, and the team should use it's extra cap flexibility to protect an expected average spot in their roster.

if, on the other hand, the flyers have taken the step of making their goaltender a central piece of the structure of their team by dedicating almost 10% of their roster payroll to him, i expect him to make all the stops an average goaltender should be expected to stop, and to provide the extra support that only elite goaltenders are able to provide. if you have that, the roster can be designed to expect better-than-normal coverage from their goalie and can press its strengths in other areas. a heavy expendature in goal can only be seen as worthwhile if it affords you more ability to focus on other aspects of the team. "don't sweat working too hard keeping bryzgalov safe; he's got this. go score some goals." LA is having a fantastic time right now with exactly that dynamic.

bryzgalov represents 8.8% of the team's roster, by cap hit. that is a level where he should be an advantage the team brings to the table. he didn't even give the flyers the "average goaltender" performance through much of the season and the playoffs, though. i don't think it is unreasonable to find that unacceptable. my own analysis (which is just my analysis, we're each welcome to their own, but what i've seen of the guy over the last 5 years doesn't reassure me) of bryzgalov's game tells me the best he will able to do is climb up to the average level, and even that is going to require a lot of effort on his part and an ideal set of circumstances from his teammates. making the entire equation a complete mess.

if this were a 3 year deal, i'd still be gnashing my teeth, but i'd know that the end wasn't all that far away. i was angry when biron was brought to town, but it was only going to be a problem for so long. with bryzgalov, it's just slit your wrists time. my newborn neice will be in 5th grade by the time he's gone.

ok, /rant. each time i think about it, i just get so mad the flyers did this to themselves, and it is either scream or type furiously about it for a while. my girlfriend and our cats have asked me to stop screaming, so here i am. because.....

...he's freaking terrible and always has been.

Edited May 21, 2012 by noodl

[OccamsRazor]

@

Yeah with that clip that just lets you KNOW they meant what they said about being better off without him and they have a better TEAMMATE in Smith.

[canoli]

...he's freaking terrible and always has been.

Edited by noodl, Yesterday, 08:55 PM.

wow. And the announcer is being extremely kind when he says Couture "ripped it past him." That was a flutter shot from outside the blue line for god's sake.

Luckily we didn't have to contend with anything quite that bad this year... Oh wait... yes we did.

[flyerrod]

i saw a goalie who was exposed to a narrower shot selection from opponents due to an enhanced defense, and his mobility-related deficiencies simply weren't on display the way they were at other times during the season. i *did* see more confidence and fewer full-on bad goals, but i did not see any improvement in his physical or techinical capabilities. i guess we'll just have to shelf that one until next season and see how things go. i expect cross-slot passes to eat him alive every time. we'll see.

Michael Leighton all over again.......For the Flyers to make Bryzgalov look good, they are going to need Dale Hunter brought in and get the Flyers to play a totally defensive oriented game. The reason Holtby looked so good was the Caps shut down the cross Ice passing and Holtby was very good about not allowing rebounds.

[radoran]

Again, I agree on the cap hit. I agree on the term. I agree on the salary this year. I agree, agree, agree...

I have been one of the most vocal ripping the Flyers and Snider for signing this guy to this contract. I have acknowledged serious doubts about his play. I have discussed - at length - his shortcomings.

I have also been crystal clear that all of those things aren't going to change the fact that he's the Flyers' goalie.

Nor do they change the fact that you seem to expect the people who royally screwed this up to magically get it 100% entirely right next time.

I don't.

Given lemons, I'm making lemonade.

I did see better lateral movement - if only the reaction time of getting off his damn knees on one side and moving to the other. Yes, this was coupled with better team defense. We can chicken/egg goalie and defense all day, but the point is that the two are mutually supportive. Team game and all.

What I mean by ridiculous expectations are the people who, seeing the Flyers go up 1-0, expect Bryzgalov to "steal the game" while the rest of the team plays like garbage.

Of the three Vezina finalists and Bryzgalov, they played 16 1-0 games this season:

Quick 3-5

Lundqvist: 1-2

Rinne: 0-1

Your Vezina finalists are 4-8 in 1-0 games this season.

Bryzgalov was 2-1-1. Including two shutouts in March crunchtime.

The point here is that it IS ridiculous to think that a goalie can reliably steal games in which the team plays like utter crap. The Vezina finalists - two of which are still playing in the postseason - took just 33% of the points in 1-0 games. Bryzgalov DID manage to "steal" THREE points in games which the team FAILED TO SCORE AT ALL. How many times can you go to that well??

Given time, I might run through 1-goal games and see those results. Unless my government grant comes in, I'm not going through the game logs of every game for four teams :-)

Cross-slot passes leading to shots and goals? Show me a goalie that will reliably stop cross-slot passes every time. THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE A DEFENSE. If you give up that sort of offense time and again ANY goalie will be exposed and while there might be a leap across the crease that makes a highlight reel save, you're going to get burned FAR more often than not if you play loosey goosey with the puck in your own end.

Again, this fanbase ran out of town and continually maligns TO THIS DAY a guy who put up 1.85/.936 and 2.14/.909 in back to back playoffs after two seasons of sub-2.00/.920. I'm on demonstrably solid ground when it comes to ridiculous expectations.

Again, not saying he's Jacques Plante or Patrick Roy. Just saying he's capable of playing better than he did for most of the season; that he did play better than he has been given credit for by Some; and that he's not going anywhere...

[Adamflyers]

I have been a vocal critic of Bryz this year, and I don't regret a single bit of it. He did not play up to the standards that his contract set for him. His total body of work wearing the O&B was average at best, and I think that is throwing him a bone. Yes, he had some fine moments during the regular season, moments that should not be ignored. Unfortunately, the positives do not even come close to out weighing the negatives. Bryz could have been the best goalie in the NHL all during the season, but the way he played during the playoffs alone would over shadow a Vezina type season. He was not close to having a Vezina type season, so again, the negatives loom very large.

All of that being said, I take the article as Bryz saying, in his own unique way, that he suffered through a horrible season, he took his lumps from the fans, and he is going to use this experience to improve himself. Seems to me he came in here expecting life to be a bowl of cherries and that the status quo would be like in Phoenix. He obviously either didnt do his research or just ignored the fact that our fans care deeply about the team and that the media is full of muck rakers.

So because this season was supposed to be a season in which this team was to work out all of the kinks and to get all of these new players in synch, I'm willing to give Bryz a pass and see how he comes out next season. Maybe he needed this season to figure everything out and to get settled in. Based on Homer's comments, it sounds like he is taking that same approach. If we get more of the same play, Bryz can expect the same level of criticism from the fans and the media, but I'm willing to see how he comes out next year before jumping on him from the start.

[flyerrod]

@radoran

i expect cross-slot passes to eat him alive every time.

The emphasis is on the EVERY TIME...He has consistently (other than march into april play) had the worst lateral movement in the NHL short of Leighton. Holtby also has poor lateral movement but the Caps defense masked that very well. I give him props for his good play and I was truly hoping it was going to carry into the playoffs but that was not so. He played better in the Devils series but was still able to come up with some really bad moves that ultimately cost them goals. IF he can bring himself to not leave the goal crease EVER and stay focused instead of starting to daydream 2/3rds of the way into the game, he can be a decent NHL goalie. Until that happens, DooDoo occurs.....

[radoran]

I understand the point, rod. I just think it's overblown.

You acknowledge all I have said about Bryz's play with "other than march into april play". He IS capable of being better than he played for much of the season and it IS possible he can play at a higher level because he DID.

As for the playoffs, I haven't found anybody who can explain that Pittsburgh series. It was bizarre. Marc-Andre Fleury, #1 draft pick, $5M, Cup-winning goalie got torched worse than Bryzgalov. And Fleury played Junior, too! .

Bryz's play against the Devils, while far from perfect, was not the primary or secondary reason they lost that series. I'd go with 1) injury and 2) fatigue.The first is unpredictable and capricious but I expect the second to be less of an issue next year. In addition to Giroux's wrists, Simmond's finger and Timonen's back you can add Bryzgalov's foot and not having healthy players like Grossmann, Meszaros and JVR.

Again, I acknowledge that a goalie can "steal a game" and gave two clear examples of Bryz getting three of four points while the team in front of him scored zero actual goals in the regular season. But that's only going to take you so far, and not terribly far in the second round of the Stanley Cup playoffs. It would not have overcome the major problems over the next TWO ROUNDS.

I saw better *awareness* on the ice in the post-All Star period is the bext I can probably explain. There was less looking behind him or thinking the puck was trapped when it wasn't. It still happened, but not, for me, as frequently. Also, as I said, getting up off his knees on one side was faster, leading to quicker lateral movement. Not perfect. Better.

I still crouched forward every time play came into the defensive end and pleaded with the hockey gods to clear the freaking puck and not allow any shots.

Like I said, I understand exactly where y'all are coming from.

[JackStraw]

Bryz's play against the Devils, while far from perfect, was not the primary or secondary reason they lost that series. I'd go with 1) injury and 2) fatigue

I think you have to add 3) over-confidence.

[aziz]

Cross-slot passes leading to shots and goals? Show me a goalie that will reliably stop cross-slot passes every time. THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE A DEFENSE. If you give up that sort of offense time and again ANY goalie will be exposed and while there might be a leap across the crease that makes a highlight reel save, you're going to get burned FAR more often than not if you play loosey goosey with the puck in your own end.

i don't know if you've watched any of LA's games this spring, but they do NOT have a good defense. what they have is a goalie who doesn't require them to have a good defense. quick is going post-to-post time after time after time shutting down open scoring chances and covering up for defensive mistakes. watch some quick highlights from this postseason, and count the horrific coverage problems LA has. that's what seperates a great goalie from a not-great goalie: the ability to makes saves you wouldn't expect to be made with some reliability. no, he isn't going to get them all, but he will a huge equalizer, providing his defense and thus his team with a margin for error. i've said it before: if you only expect your goalie to make the saves an average NHL goaltender should make, there is no reason to pay him more than the league average. currently, that's $2.4mil. if your team spends more than twice that and you are still told it is unreasonable to expect better than average performance........ more than twice the average cap hit *should* mean a simple cross-slot passing play is no big deal, that there'd better be one heck of a shot at the end of it picking a corner because the goalie will be able to track the pass and will be squared up, because he has exceptional goaltending skills like lateral mobility. exceptional goaltending skills on an globally elite scale. else, what is it that makes him better than anyone else?

look, i get that you agree with most of this, but are better able to get past it than me. it is what it is, and we have to deal with it. i get that. i'm flogging a dead horse, running the topic into the ground, basically whining to zero effect. i know. at this point, i can't help it. i hold out a tiny bit of hope that the flyers management will bail on this deal sooner rather than later. a tiny bit. in my opinion, like i said before, bryzgalov represents a hard cap on what the flyers are capable of, and so long as he is their goalie, seasons will always end in may at best. he is incapable of being that jonathan quick-like difference maker, and what's more, is incapable of being consistent under pressure to even provide baseline average goaltending through a full playoff run. 8 more years of him as the flyers goalie means every single player currently on the roster will UFA eligible before the flyers have something approaching a real shot at more than a mid round exit. that is going to make me actively angry every time i think about it.

and yes, he has his name on the cup. for 4 1/2 games played, 4 of those being against minnosota. and pronger/niedermayer averaging almost 30 minutes over that stretch. if the flyers can get a defense pair like pronger/niedermayer circa 2007, maybe i become a bit more optimistic.

[Podein25]

i don't know....

You had me at: "I don't know"

You're wrong about LA. Quick is great, but they get the puck out when they need to.

[radoran]

i don't know if you've watched any of LA's games this spring, but they do NOT have a good defense. what they have is a goalie who doesn't require them to have a good defense. quick is going post-to-post time after time after time shutting down open scoring chances and covering up for defensive mistakes. watch some quick highlights from this postseason, and count the horrific coverage problems LA has. that's what seperates a great goalie from a not-great goalie: the ability to makes saves you wouldn't expect to be made with some reliability. no, he isn't going to get them all, but he will a huge equalizer, providing his defense and thus his team with a margin for error. i've said it before: if you only expect your goalie to make the saves an average NHL goaltender should make, there is no reason to pay him more than the league average. currently, that's $2.4mil. if your team spends more than twice that and you are still told it is unreasonable to expect better than average performance........ more than twice the average cap hit *should* mean a simple cross-slot passing play is no big deal, that there'd better be one heck of a shot at the end of it picking a corner because the goalie will be able to track the pass and will be squared up, because he has exceptional goaltending skills like lateral mobility. exceptional goaltending skills on an globally elite scale. else, what is it that makes him better than anyone else?

look, i get that you agree with most of this, but are better able to get past it than me. it is what it is, and we have to deal with it. i get that. i'm flogging a dead horse, running the topic into the ground, basically whining to zero effect. i know. at this point, i can't help it. i hold out a tiny bit of hope that the flyers management will bail on this deal sooner rather than later. a tiny bit. in my opinion, like i said before, bryzgalov represents a hard cap on what the flyers are capable of, and so long as he is their goalie, seasons will always end in may at best. he is incapable of being that jonathan quick-like difference maker, and what's more, is incapable of being consistent under pressure to even provide baseline average goaltending through a full playoff run. 8 more years of him as the flyers goalie means every single player currently on the roster will UFA eligible before the flyers have something approaching a real shot at more than a mid round exit. that is going to make me actively angry every time i think about it.

and yes, he has his name on the cup. for 4 1/2 games played, 4 of those being against minnosota. and pronger/niedermayer averaging almost 30 minutes over that stretch. if the flyers can get a defense pair like pronger/niedermayer circa 2007, maybe i become a bit more optimistic.

So you're saying there's ONE goalie out of 30 starters and 30 backups that do what you would require your goalie to do on a regular basis?

Henrik Lundqvist gave up 4 goals on 29 shots and wasn't even in net when one of them went in. King Henrik had a .897 SV% tonight in the Second Round of the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Henrik Lundqvist made $6.875M this season. Shouldn't the Rangers fans be able to expect that he won't give up three goals in a playoff game? Shouldn't they expect that he will steal games, rounds and Cups for them for that amount of money?

Even if the team in front of him manages just one goal? Heck, they scored, didn't they? Why couldn't the goalie win the game for them?

Do you realize he allowed the Capitals to score in every game in the playoffs? EVERY GAME! Tonight was his FIFTH game with a sub-.900 SV% in the playoffs - shouldn't Rangers fans be able to expect more from their starter in the playoffs? Especially since he's making so much money?

Wait. Maybe it's not entirely the goalie... Nah, couldn't be.

[aziz]

You're wrong about LA. Quick is great, but they get the puck out when they need to.

sure, after quick has made the save, which is after the shooter was all alone in front of the net, which is after LA's dmen both covered the same guy. or some variation thereof. quick has been ridiculous this post season -heck, the regular season, too- and he's had to be.

[aziz]

So you're saying there's ONE goalie out of 30 starters and 30 backups that do what you would require your goalie to do on a regular basis?

no. goalies that do what i would require them to do for $5+mil cap hit, there's about 5. maybe 6. why would you pay anyone else more than $3mil if it is unreasonable to expect them to be better than average?

Henrik Lundqvist made $6.875M this season. Shouldn't the Rangers fans be able to expect that he won't give up three goals in a playoff game?

obviously one playoff game is an entirely different story than, well, most of them.

Tonight was his FIFTH game with a sub-.900 SV% in the playoffs - shouldn't Rangers fans be able to expect more from their starter in the playoffs? Especially since he's making so much money?

you can do better than that, rad. i know you know there is a difference between 5-of-18 games with a sub-.900sv% and 7-of-11 for bryzgalov. i know you know there is a difference between a .942sv% and .887sv%. you can do better than suggest the latter case is the same as the former. all goalies will have their off moments. the problem is, literally, lundqvist's off moments happen as often as bryzgalov's good moments (5 of 18 sub-.900 games for lundqvist = 28% of the time, 3 of 11 over .900 games for bryzgalov = 27% of the time. bryzgalov had one exactly at .900).

if you really think those are apples and apples.....

Edited May 22, 2012 by noodl

[radoran]

no. goalies that do what i would require them to do for $5+mil cap hit, there's about 5. maybe 6. why would you pay anyone else more than $3mil if it is unreasonable to expect them to be better than average?

obviously one playoff game is an entirely different story than, well, most of them.

you can do better than that, rad. i know you know there is a difference between 5-of-18 games with a sub-.900sv% and 7-of-11 for bryzgalov. i know you know there is a difference between a .942sv% and .887sv%. you can do better than suggest the latter case is the same as the former. all goalies will have their off moments. the problem is, literally, lundqvist's off moments happen as often as bryzgalov's good moments (5 of 18 sub-.900 games for lundqvist = 28% of the time, 3 of 11 over .900 games for bryzgalov = 27% of the time. bryzgalov had one exactly at .900).

if you really think those are apples and apples.....

No, I'm saying that anyone can make a BFD out of anything.

Thanks for reinforcing my position.

[aziz]

@radoran

true. also, i think this piece of crap at $5.667mil for the next 8 years is legitimately a BFD.

alright, i've gone from denial (for several weeks around march), to anger, have quickly gone through bargaining (because a buyout really isn't going to happen) and am starting into depression. acceptance is next, i suppose. like vasquez and gorman.

[flyerrod]

i suppose. like vasquez and gorman.

A grenade? Really? I will choose to just be very, very angry like a different "Alien" until Bryz either plays better or is gone.......man I miss my Uranium P-36 space modulator...........

[JackStraw]

bryzgalov represents a hard cap on what the flyers are capable of, and so long as he is their goalie, seasons will always end in may at best. he is incapable of being that jonathan quick-like difference maker,

And how many other goalies in the league are capable of that? One? Two? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that more teams win Stanley Cups with goalies who are merely "good" (which I think Bryz probably is) than "great". Osgood, Niemi are recent examples. For all his greatness, how many Cups does King Henry have so far?

[aziz]

@flyerrod

pendejo

[aziz]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that more teams win Stanley Cups with goalies who are merely "good" (which I think Bryz probably is) than "great". Osgood, Niemi are recent examples.

do you remember niemi that spring? he was human in the finals, but it's arguable that the blackhawks don't get that far if he doesn't stand on his head for 2 of the 3 previous rounds.

osgood, agreed. now we just need the lidstrom, rafalski, stuart, kronwall, zetterberg and datsyuk of 2008, and that plan will work.

[flyerrod]

@

[radoran]

@radoran

true. also, i think this piece of crap at $5.667mil for the next 8 years is legitimately a BFD.

alright, i've gone from denial (for several weeks around march), to anger, have quickly gone through bargaining (because a buyout really isn't going to happen) and am starting into depression. acceptance is next, i suppose. like vasquez and gorman.

It is a BFD - I've been quite specific in saying so. So what are you going to do about it? What CAN be done about it?

Not. Bloody. Much.

I'm saying future success is possible - not guaranteed.

Cup winning teams don't NEED their goalie to "stand on their heads" to win it. The TEAM wins or loses the Cup. And I do think this team has the significant pieces to build a solid Cup run with (not the standard "good enough to compete for the Stanley Cup" gobbeldygook we get fed every year).

If you want to sit there with a grenade in your hand sulking, fine. I'm getting in the loader and throwing this ***** off my ship.

[aziz]

I'm getting in the loader and throwing this ***** off my ship.

well, you can't, can you? she laid 51 million eggs, and now you're gonna have facehuggers flying at you 82 times a year.

game over man, game over! what the **** are we gonna do now? what are we gonna do?

[Podein25]

pendejo

Nice one.