Flyers- bottom line..weaker defense, weaker goaltending, weaker offense

[mojo1917]

@B21

you asked for incidents of chodeliness and were provided examples, not your captain's finest moments for sure.

really seems like this particular strand of the thread needs to be let go as a no win at the very least, not one person i can think of would watch that and think "you know what, that guy in the white shirt with 87 on it really getting a raw deal here all those meanies in the orange are picking on him". when ray ferraro is calling out your behavior you've probably gone a little off the reservation.

the young fella was unglued for much of the series and led the team right into the poop hole.

[B21]

@B21

you asked for incidents of chodeliness and were provided examples, not your captain's finest moments for sure.

really seems like this particular strand of the thread needs to be let go as a no win at the very least, not one person i can think of would watch that and think "you know what, that guy in the white shirt with 87 on it really getting a raw deal here all those meanies in the orange are picking on him". when ray ferraro is calling out your behavior you've probably gone a little off the reservation.

the young fella was unglued for much of the series and led the team right into the poop hole.

Fair. Examples - yes. Only one (the swatting of the glove) hits "petulant child" territory. This has certainly hit "agree to disagree" time on what constitutes one being a "petulant child." That makes for a fun debate if nothing else.

It's the comments like this..."I would have been embarassed if Crosby had been my team's captain in that series..." that reek of hypocrisy. I can say that because I was embarrased as a Pen fan by Matt Cooke. Go back further and add Kasparaitis and Barnadby to that list.

If one feels that way - fine. I just hope the same person was as equally embarrased when the Flyers gave up 4 #1's for one of the biggest POS's to ever lace 'em up. I'm guessing "not" but that's water under the bridge at this point.

[mojo1917]

@B21

were you posting on philly.com when that trade (pronger) took place ? holy cow , it was mayhem, lots of us had to be talked off the ledge, those of us that thought luca sbisa and francois beauchamin were the answer were floored. the amount given up in the trade was the primary concern, the fact that he'd acted like an ass in edmonton and anaheim was second, all the incidents from his early days were not discussed much. but there wasn't exactly a red carpet rolled out for him by this group.

Edit: i think you and i wrote about this last year...

[sarsippius]

@B21

Yeah we're gonna have agree to disagree, because I have an answer for every one of those points but this is getting silly....If you go on YouTube there are plenty of his career lowlights out there, put together by people who aren't Flyers fans.....there's a great one of the time he complained about people throwing hats on ice after Ovechkin got a hat trick. All I can say is if you're going to throw the "O&B glasses" comment around when it comes to Crosby, you probably need to recognize the "Y&B" coke bottle thick glasses you're sporting with respect to this guy. Fans around the league don't hate Crosby because he's a great player, I'll leave that to you to figure out why.....Philly isn't the only place where the Crosby sucks chant rings out, and I was in the building when we cheered Mario after his cancer comeback and when we chanted his name as he took a farewell skate after the Flyers knocked the Pens out of the playoffs in what was at the time his final NHL game (he came back when the franchise was headed toward bankruptcy if I remember correctly)...so the vitriol is simply because a Penguin.

Also I don't see how it is relevant what Chris Pronger or Danny Briere or mickey freakin mouse do/did when the point being addressed was the embarrassing behavior of your captain over looooong periods of time. When you reduce it to "it's because he's a Penguin" or "you guys don't mind when a Flyer" does x y or z, that's not only a Kuatoesque deflecton from the point at hand, but it's also making a statement that you don't even know is true.....and in my case neither of those statements are true. I'm MORE disgusted when a Flyer does something stupid!

And all of this means nothing, just a diversion to pass the time until October 18th gets here

[radoran]

All you have is the glove and to call that worse than Avery/Brodeur?

No, I'm saying that I would have been embarassed if Crosby was captain of my team.

That's all I said.

If you weren't embarassed by that behavior, that's fine.

I haven't defended the actions of a single player mentioned on this thread. I have called some of the activity "hockey" - which it is.

And I've sought a better definition of "punk" that doesn't put Matthew Barnaby and Danny Briere in the same "puink" league.

Carry on.

[radoran]

It's the comments like this..."I would have been embarassed if Crosby had been my team's captain in that series..." that reek of hypocrisy. I can say that because I was embarrased as a Pen fan by Matt Cooke. Go back further and add Kasparaitis and Barnadby to that list.

You go ahead and demonstrate MY "hypocrisy" on this issue - as *I* was the one who said that. Go ahead, go through this thread and show me where that comment "reeks of hypocrisy."

I'll wait...

All you have is conflating me with other posters based on the colour of the couch in my avatar.

That's weak tea.

[radoran]

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/flyers-talk/Playoff-loss-to-Flyers-has-motivated-Pen?blockID=732582&feedID=695

Here's another person who "reeks of hypocrisy" on this issue: Mario Lemieux

One source close to Mario Lemieux told me the Penguins' owner was not only “embarrassed” by the Pens' antics in that series, but “furious” that his team was bounced in the first round for the second straight season and vowed there would be significant upgrades.

Oh, but wait - that's the well-known, biased Philly media making stuff up.

So, here's the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review:

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_791619.html

Penguins majority co-owner Mario Lemieux was disappointed with his club`s overall lack of discipline and embarrassed with the dirty plays by Asham and Neal in Game 3, sources close to Lemieux said.

Oh, and let's just add Dan Bylsma to the list of reeking hypocrites as well:

Coach Dan Bylsma, who granted his club a day off Monday, said he was "certainly not proud of the situation that happened on the ice."

No, if your owner is "embarassed" and your coach "isn't proud" of your team that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the Captain of the team on the ice.

None. At. All.

@B21 - Your blinders are ready.

[B21]

@B21

were you posting on philly.com when that trade (pronger) took place ? holy cow , it was mayhem, lots of us had to be talked off the ledge, those of us that thought luca sbisa and francois beauchamin were the answer were floored. the amount given up in the trade was the primary concern, the fact that he'd acted like an ass in edmonton and anaheim was second, all the incidents from his early days were not discussed much. but there wasn't exactly a red carpet rolled out for him by this group.

Edit: i think you and i wrote about this last year...

At that point I was reading but not posting. Hadn't sign up yet (I think). If I had I wasn't involved in the pros/cons. And you are right that there ware a lot of people against the trade but as you pointed out - it was what you gave up and then the length of the contract extension, cap hit, etc. I don't remember anything about his history. Could be wrong but not be able to remember anything leads me to think that if there was any mention of it, it wasn't much. Certainly no one NOT wanting him because of what he had done in the past.

[B21]

@sarsippius

<< Yeah we're gonna have agree to disagree, because I have an answer for every one of those points but this is getting silly....If you go on YouTube there are plenty of his career lowlights out there, put together by people who aren't Flyers fans.....there's a great one of the time he complained about people throwing hats on ice after Ovechkin got a hat trick. All I can say is if you're going to throw the "O&B glasses" comment around when it comes to Crosby, you probably need to recognize the "Y&B" coke bottle thick glasses you're sporting with respect to this guy. >>

This really has nothing to do with what I think about Crosby. I've been on record many times taking issues with some of the things he has done. He's absolutely had some less than desirable moments that are embarassing to me as a Pens fan.

<< Fans around the league don't hate Crosby because he's a great player, I'll leave that to you to figure out why.....Philly isn't the only place where the Crosby sucks chant rings out, and I was in the building when we cheered Mario after his cancer comeback and when we chanted his name as he took a farewell skate after the Flyers knocked the Pens out of the playoffs in what was at the time his final NHL game (he came back when the franchise was headed toward bankruptcy if I remember correctly)...so the vitriol is simply because a Penguin. >>

Mario is a bad example. He was not nearly as polarizing as Crosby. And this has nothing at all to do with which fan base "hates" Crosby more. The only "defending" of him I've done here is saying that I don't think his actions in that playoff series warrant being called a petulant child. I'm not giving him a complete pass like you seem to think.

<< Also I don't see how it is relevant what Chris Pronger or Danny Briere or mickey freakin mouse do/did when the point being addressed was the embarrassing behavior of your captain over looooong periods of time. When you reduce it to "it's because he's a Penguin" or "you guys don't mind when a Flyer" does x y or z, that's not only a Kuatoesque deflecton from the point at hand, but it's also making a statement that you don't even know is true.....and in my case neither of those statements are true. I'm MORE disgusted when a Flyer does something stupid! >>

It is relevant to me. I can't make this any more clearer. If fan of Team X says "I hate Crosby because of his cheap shots..." or "I hate Crosby because he whines and dives..." then I say "fine". Go with God. For the most part I agree with those statments. There's room for debate if you want to argue something Crosby has done versus something another player has done as far as which is "worse"...that's till admitting something was bad. Ditto "how" bad something is (see: "petulant child"). But those first two statements in and of themselves are facts.

Now, if fan of Team X says something like "I hate Crosby because he whines and dives..." but takes no issue when their OWN players do it then sorry - more often than not they'll get called out on it. And by "takes no issue" I mean making a statement like that and adding something like "...and I'd never want a guy like that on my team" or "...the Flyers fans would never put up with a player who does that on their team." I will point out that - guess what - you have and you do. A lot. That usually leads to the "who is worse" debate which is fine by me. Those are fun.

What makes matters worse is everytime a Pens fan here mentions something naughty a Flyer does or any player for that matter we have to deal with "Yeah well you have Matt Cooke..." or "you have Crosby...". Look at this thread and how this nonsense started. A Pens fan was ASKED about Hartnell and offered his thoughts. He doesn't bring up Crosby or defend Cooke...just points out in his mind he doesn't like the way Hartnell plays the game (and later admits he has issues with Crosby). Like flies on shite, Crosby or Cooke (I forget and am too lazy to go back) gets thrown back at him. That's where I chimed in. Pens fan makes inoccuous comment about Hartnell. Flyers fan can't resist that Crosby/Cooke temption. I started with my Briere argument and away we go.

So to address your point...bringing up Briere and Pronger was not a "Kuato-esque" deflection. It was VERY relevant when this whole thing started. More power to you for admitting you are disgusted when a Flyer does something bad. Usually that's exception more than the rule. I've seen many a Flyer fan go to great lenghts to justify in their mind why their player is "not guilty". You know what I am talking about. The "victim" turned his head at the last minute or should have been ready to fight or the Flyer just grazed his head or he's a future Hall of Famer or he was just careless with his stick. Seen it all.

[B21]

@radoran

So you want different levels of being a "punk" so as not to lump Briere in with the likes Avery or Barnaby? I've already said that. Briere is a punk...but not as bad as those two. "Not even close" was my exact phrase. Kinda like I have admitted I didn't like Crosby's Game 3 antics but won't go so far as to call him a "petulant child" (more on that later). Thank you for making my point though.

Sorry if I am confusing you with other posters but when I get multiple replies to one post at some point you all get lumped into the same group. If something doesn't apply to you then let it be and carry on. If it does, feel free to address it.

I took issue with the "petulant child" remark...and I can't even remember whose it was. I didn't like his antics. I was embarassed by some of his antics. I am not at all embarassed he is the captain of the team I root for. Just like I was embarassed by Matt Cooke's cheap shots I am proud to have a player on the team I root for who can (so far) turn his game around and show he can play cleanly. Sorry to take away your big "BAM!" moment with the comments from Bylsman and Mario...but I agree with them for the most part. You have been around long enough to have seen my post after Game 3. You know - the one I started on 4/18/12 called EMBARRASING. I called his actions "bush league". Go read it. It's all there. I can't make my thoughts more obvious. It got a lot of reads and I suspect that included you.

So I am going to take my unbiased opinion and occasionally defend Crosby when I think criticism of him does too far (see: "petulant child" again) AND when I or another Pens fans is getting called out for really no reason by a Flyers fan (or fan of any team) I'll bring up the Brieres and Prongers of the world...just like Polaris922 had Cooke/Crosby thrown back at him when he had the nerve to say he didn't like Hartnell.

Nice try with the grandstanding but I am not sure what else you need to see to be convinced that I am about as unbiased as they come.

Edited July 11, 2012 by B21

[flyerrod]

Petulant- Easily irked or annoyed....a fussy man who blames others for his problems......I am pretty sure that is an accurate description of Crosby's interviews and attitude during the Pens last series. Just sayin'............

[JackStraw]

[B21]

@JackStraw

[B21]

@JackStraw

Oh - Flyers do have a weaker D, the goaltending can't get any weaker and assuming the "kids" step up, slightly better offense.

There - back on track.

[sarsippius]

@B21

" I've been on record many times taking issues with some of the things he has done. He's absolutely had some less than desirable moments that are embarassing to me as a Pens fan."

" The only "defending" of him I've done here is saying that I don't think his actions in that playoff series warrant being called a petulant child. I'm not giving him a complete pass like you seem to think."

"You have been around long enough to have seen my post after Game 3. You know - the one I started on 4/18/12 called EMBARRASING. I called his actions "bush league"."

Oh....What were we arguing about again?

Flyers do have a weaker D, the goaltending can't get any weaker....

That too

[flyerrod]

@JackStraw

the goaltending can't get any weaker

There - back on track.

No arguing that................

[Polaris922]

I tried to stay out of this. I really did. @B21 Crysby causes this enire melee. He goes after Timonen, as if he was actually going to do something, Timonen barely reacts, then LeWang jumps in to fight the battle for him....right, the battle HE started, as if Timonen had been the aggressor. Crysby then locks up with Giroux, and doesn't throw a punch....right, until the linesman steps in. Oh, and this was a couple minutes after Crotchby knocked Voracek's glove away from him as he was leaning over to pick it up. Child, punk, d*ckhead, coward, whatever term you want to use. Big man that LeWang by the way, jump in and catch a 38 year old non fighter off guard and pound his head into the ice. I can't wait for that c*cksucker to get his, but I guess knocking his goofy a*s out of the playoffs was a nice start. See, I was trying to enjoy a nice mellow offseason and you guys just HAD to get me started See replay at about 2:12

OKay I watched your video... and noticed something... the entire melee starts because Giroux punches Crosby in the side of the head twice after the whistle at the end of the play around the net. BUt Crosby is a punk? As for Letang going on Timonen, Letang isn't exactly a brawler either... he starts to bear hug him to get him away from our star center. I don't have a problem with that. Then those two go at it as Giroux and Crosby finish what they started. Christ that's all playoff stuff... I can even defend Giroux as defending Bryzgalov as Crosby was whacking at the puck... like every other player in the NHL does... this whole video is a pretty weak example of punk status. But if you were to say any one thing was worst... I'd point at Giroux punching Crosby in the side of the head for playing till the whistle.

Seriously, could he sound and look any more like a child here, with that goofy punk smirk and those girl lips? I have no problem with the message, but deliver it like man....yes, before you point it out, I get the irony in my own childishness with these posts

OKay so let me get this straight... you think he's a punk because of the way his lips move when he talks? LOL Good grief Charlie Brown... As for the glove thing... yes! That was embarassing. But I think most players have moments where their judgement slips... if that is the worst slip he makes I'll be glad for it. I agree with Lemieux and Bylsma's comments afterward too. I think this is a young team growing up together. The Flyers are too... there will be moments. Having said that... and now reading the remainder of the posts, I apologize for diverting back to what was apparently winding down. I just wanted to get my opinion on the matter established. I agree largely with what @B21 said and appreciate his coming to my defense on the topic. And I apologize to anyone I may have misunderstood... I was actually in Gettysburg with my family and can't always get the entire meaning of someone's message on my iPhone while listening to dramatic storytelling of Pickett's Charge... which technically was ordered by Longstreet and Lee before him. Can we argue about that too? I want to see video!! Edited July 12, 2012 by Polaris922

[Polaris922]

Seriously, could he sound and look any more like a child here, with that goofy punk smirk and those girl lips? I have no problem with the message, but deliver it like man....yes, before you point it out, I get the irony in my own childishness with these posts

OKay so let me get this straight... you think he's a punk because of the way his lips move when he talks? LOL Good grief Charlie Brown...

[Mad Dog]

Yeah - I heard those. He is a petulant child because he doesn't like the Flyers? Because he said the comments made by Berube and Tortie were "garbage"?

Heck - if you are going by comments made to the media the biggest - by FAR the biggest people acting like petulant children were Torties, Berube AND Lavi.

So tell me - what exactly did he say that makes him a petulant child?

Come on , B! Are you serious? Crosby made a spectacle of himself and his team. He is supposed to be a face of the franschise and maybe even a face of the league. And the best he could come up with, is "I don't like them"? Can you picture Mario, Joe Sakic, Mario, Yzerman, Gretzky coming up with such an immature response?

And his pushing from behind, jumping into a brawl when there is no place for him to be...all that smacks of lack of character and immaturity. I am sorry, but you are just not being objective on this.

I have seen enough of Crosby. I doubt he'll ever change; zebras don't ever change their stripes. The shame of it is, just before the last year, I finally started warming up to him. When he was out with a concusison for a long time, I was vocal about this being a huge loss for the NHL. I didn't want hockey to lose such a great talent. But after I've seen his behavior last spring, I lost all the respect that I just about started giving him.

[B21]

Come on , B! Are you serious? Crosby made a spectacle of himself and his team. He is supposed to be a face of the franschise and maybe even a face of the league. And the best he could come up with, is "I don't like them"? Can you picture Mario, Joe Sakic, Mario, Yzerman, Gretzky coming up with such an immature response?

And his pushing from behind, jumping into a brawl when there is no place for him to be...all that smacks of lack of character and immaturity. I am sorry, but you are just not being objective on this.

I have seen enough of Crosby. I doubt he'll ever change; zebras don't ever change their stripes. The shame of it is, just before the last year, I finally started warming up to him. When he was out with a concusison for a long time, I was vocal about this being a huge loss for the NHL. I didn't want hockey to lose such a great talent. But after I've seen his behavior last spring, I lost all the respect that I just about started giving him.

OMFG! First - read what @Polaris922 wrote above about this mele where Crosby made a "spectacle" of himself. Giroux WAS JUST AS BAD IF NOT WORSE assuming you think what Crosby did was "bad". And I'M the one not being objective? To call that "immature" is just beyond comprehension to me. It's not immature. It's hockey. The swatting of the glove was bush but there is also a part of me that liked that, too. To beat a dead horse, here is Crosby getting killed for a "glove" incident yet lest we forget Scottie Orphan Annie and his famous "bush league" glove incidents...throwing his glove to stop a Malone break away and literally TAKING Drury's glove from him. Incidents that the majority of Flyers fans LOVED.

Second, I've seen poster after poster take issue with the highly skilled player who is afraid to mix it up. Usually that tends to be the Euros but it also applies to guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, et al. Now you have a HIGHLY skilled player who ISN'T afraid to mix it up and what do you do? Kill him for hit. Yeah - there have been moments where teammates have come to his aid. There have also been plenty where his been in the middle of a mele taking as much as he is dishing out. This is a perfect example of BOTH. As for this comments: "I don't like them." Good! Halle-friggin-lujah! Memo...we are rivals. I am GLAD he does not like the Flyers. To often is sports players are "friendly". Chat it up before the game. Go play 60 minutes and be friends again after. I don't have a problem with that but damn if it is not refreshing to see some honesty once and while. Him hating means he is only going to play THAT much harder against you.

This is exactly what I am preaching about. It's like Crosby just being a Penguin isn't enough to hate him. People literally have to make things up or nitpick things that he does that many other players have done and often players on their own team. Heck - just look at that vidoe. Giroux's antics in that vidoe were completely ignored until Polaris922 points them out.

As for him having to be "better" because he is the face of the league? BS. He didn't ask for it. If you don't think he's worthy, take it up with the NHL. Not Crosby.

[B21]

@sarsippius

<< Oh....What were we arguing about again? >>

We were arguing?

[mojo1917]

Well i see now that whole fracas was claude giroux's fault .

@B21

@Polaris922

thanks for helping me to remove my orange and black goggles, Sidney was the model of restraint and good sportsmanship, why i think he was just trying to help jake reach his glove so he wouldn't have to bend down.

burgers please...

[B21]

Well i see now that whole fracas was claude giroux's fault .

@B21

@Polaris922

thanks for helping me to remove my orange and black goggles, Sidney was the model of restraint and good sportsmanship, why i think he was just trying to help jake reach his glove so he wouldn't have to bend down.

burgers please...

If you want to go all CSI an analyze who did what to who first and what is the appropriate level of response and who should/should not be involved and who tangled with who and who stepped in to protect yadda yadda yadda...feel free. Everyone who has done that so far has turned a blind eye to the Flyers in that scrum. Bottom line...swatting the glove away aside...Crosby was really no better or worse than any other player involved.

If he skates away he's a pu$$y. If he mixes it up he's a punk. Really...despite the video showing Giroux punching Crosby twice after the whistle you want to pin this all on Crosby. I'm not trying to pin fault on anyone for that melee but I'll argue with anyone who tries to pin the entire thing on Crosby...especially after seeing St. Claude's involvement.

To borrow a line from A Few Good Men..."Maybe if we try hard enough we could get Crosby accused of the Kennedy assassination?"

Mojos please...

[mojo1917]

@B21

don't lump me in with those that think claude is a saint... he's jesus, orange jesus to you .

clearly it was james neal on the grassy knoll, everyone knows that. duh

kidding aside i know claude runs his yap pretty well. but the business after that whistle which crosby played to was over, people protected their goalie making sure he didn't get an extra whack close to the whistle, an activity radoran calls "hockey" & said their piece, time to play some more hockey, the finger should be pointed directly at the referee's for allowing that situation to devolve.

take 28 and 87 off the ice there and none of that business happens.

Crosby still behaved poorly in the series and the post game presser, and deserves all the accolades that accompany such comportment .

[DaGreatGazoo]

Holy ****** ****, this thread is beyond BEAT TO DEATH.

Getting Pens and Flyers fans to agree on anything..seriously....?????