flyercanuck Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 @Polaris922 So you'd have Timonen play OUT of YOUR top 4 (you know, the one that looked like a bad AHL defence last postseason?) I'll assume you consider the Pens a top 8 team in the conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 @Polaris922So you'd have Timonen play OUT of YOUR top 4 (you know, the one that looked like a bad AHL defence last postseason?) I'll assume you consider the Pens a top 8 team in the conference.Exactly. I don't know anyone in their right mind that would play two of Engelland, Niskanen, Martin, and Lovejoy ahead of Timonen, even given his age. I'm not even sure I'd ice Orpik and Letang over Timonen in key situations like defensive zone draws in a one-goal game. To me, a number 5 dman doesn't skate in key situations if you can help it. Timonen is the exact opposite of that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 It's not his hockey IQ I'm knocking... His speed isn't what it was.Timonen's game has never been about speed (or physical play for that matter). Positioning, hockey IQ... those are the important things for any defenseman, and those are what he excels at. It's not a question of whether or not he can still play at a high level, it's only a question of can he stay healthy over the long haul of a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I would play Letang, Orpik, Niskanen, and Martin ahead of Timonen, IF Martin turns back into what he was prior to this past season. Now hear me out... I've been saying all along it's not Timonen's skill level that I say this about. It's his stamina. You keep giving him top 4 duties plus first PP plus PK time and he'll not finish the season. Id reduce him to second pair and top Pp. when Meszaros returns, evaluate Timonen vs. Schenn's progress and go from there. If possibly I play Timonen less to have him longer.You guys act like I'm saying he should be waived or something. I just think he's where you have to reduce his ice time to get a healthy, productive season out of him. He's no hall of fame D-man... And if you want him to be there for the playoffs he has to watch his ice time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 That's a pretty big IF on Martin, though. And you have more faith in Niskanen than I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 ...he should be waived..Excuse me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Excuse me?There's no excusing you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 @JackStrawAlas, it's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Excuse me?I thought I smelled something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I would play Letang, Orpik, Niskanen, and Martin ahead of Timonen, We can only hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 (edited) We can only hope.# Pos. Player GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW S S% 58 D Kris Letang 51 10 32 42 21 34 4 1 3 142 7.0 7 D Paul Martin 73 2 25 27 9 18 0 0 0 93 2.22 D Matt Niskanen 75 4 17 21 9 47 3 0 0 118 3.4 44 D Brooks Orpik 73 2 16 18 19 61 0 0 0 44 4.5 So yes... Niskanen equaled Timonen in goal production but with almost zero PP time. All of Timonen's goals were power play goals. Put Niskanen on the first PP unit and his assists surely climb to match Timonen. His +/- is a hair above Timonen's. He's young and on the rise. The more ice time he gets the better he seems to play.Martin's year wasn't so productive. He got zero PP time, and wasn't as productive as Timonen OR Niskanen, but still maintained a plus 9.. a hair better than TImonen while playing second and sometimes third pairing. That is why I am hoping he gets back to his old self here. If he doesn't, then he is a hair worse than Timonen, but much younger and won't be out of gas 3/4 through the year like TImonen was.Orpik is a no brainer ahead of Timonen. Plus 19 and a physically dominant d-man. Probably our only one. And Letang is better than Timonen ever was. Now, if he would just quit falling down so much Edited August 23, 2012 by Polaris922 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 NO matter how I edit those numbers they don't line up... sorry fellas I tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I think that is ok. I used Html on Auto line break mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I think that is ok. I used Html on Auto line break mode.Looks the same bud but thanks for trying! Copy/paste isn't my friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 @Polaris922 Theres this part of a defencemans job that doesn't show up in those stats...it's called playing defence. Timonen is not Mike Green. And I respect him for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 @Polaris922 Theres this part of a defencemans job that doesn't show up in those stats...it's called playing defence. Timonen is not Mike Green. And I respect him for that.Agreed... I'm not saying he was ever neglectful on D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 @Polaris922 Martin over Kimo??...not in this fans world...not now, not ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 @Polaris922 Martin over Kimo??...not in this fans world...not now, not ever.As stated IF Martin returned to form from his past then absolutely. The way his past 2 seasons have gone... He's as good defensively as Timonen but not the same offensive production. Timonen has really turned into a power play specialist in my eyes offensively. Martin has the youth though to skate top four all season long. Timonen doesn't have the stamina.Many of you arguing against my thinking are saying "reduce his ice time", but offering no way to do it. If he stays top four AND stats on the number one PP AND stats on the PK... Where is this reduction in ice time coming from? Orange fairy dust won't make him last any longer into the season. I'm saying what I think you need to do to have Timonen in the hunt come playoff time. He was an empty shell of himself... Just a body on the roster this past season by then. What's the solution then if not cutting the PK time and giving him more along the lines of third pair ice time??? I hear everyone say no way, but have yet to see anyone else with a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 @Polaris922I've seen a few ideas about how to reduce his minutes in this thread, people are reluctant to have him sit out the PP because he's fing good on it, and our other guy with that ability is out for a long ass time. i'll be curious to see how he handles elite players, he's done well in the past.I also wonder if the slip we saw in his play was a chicken and egg thing, i'll bet his back injury wore him down as much as his TOI, chronic pain is difficult to manage when you're not an elite athlete playing a physical sport . i have a buddy that had back surgery recently and he's like a new person, maybe timmonen gets that sort fo bump from his procedure.if his back is healed then maybe the tough minutes aren't an issue , no one knows for sure what 44's play will be like this year.his IQ, leadership, positioning and passing were top pairing level as recently as last year with a bad back. martin and niskanen don't have his skill level in those areas, so to say you'd play them over him based upon fitness only is a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I've seen a few ideas about how to reduce his minutes in this thread, people are reluctant to have him sit out the PP because he's fing good on it, and our other guy with that ability is out for a long ass time. i'll be curious to see how he handles elite players, he's done well in the past.If I was Lavi I'd probably cut his PP time first. Give Bourdon and Gus some more PP time, maybe use Voracek on the point (which they've done before) or even Giroux. I think Timonen's value 5 on 5 and on the PK is too great and harder to replace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 @JackStrawI dunno, I might do the opposite and give him less PK minutes which are harder minutes. Problem is who do you put out there in his place? Coburn, Schenn, Grossman and ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) @JackStrawI dunno, I might do the opposite and give him less PK minutes which are harder minutes. Problem is who do you put out there in his place? Coburn, Schenn, Grossman and ?Yeah, that is the problem. I'm sure Coburn will be getting plenty of PK time as it is so I don't think he could make up for Timonen's minutes. Maybe Schenn if he plays like he was originally expected to play. I would expect Grossman to be on the PK already too, so I don't think there a lot of options for Lavi.EDIT: ok, oops. You were saying those guys and ?. I don't know who the ? would be. You want Lilja out there? I didn't think so. Maybe Bourdon... big maybe. Edited August 24, 2012 by JackStraw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I don't know who the ? would be. You want Lilja out there? I didn't think so. Maybe Bourdon... big maybe.Yeah, none of that's gonna work. Ok, I've changed my mind: Kimmo needs to continue to play the PK. And I like him on the PP too much to take him off there. So, we're left with no choice but to make his regular shift that of the 3rd pairing, i.e. as the #5 guy.Ha! I'm a genius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Yeah, none of that's gonna work. Ok, I've changed my mind: Kimmo needs to continue to play the PK. And I like him on the PP too much to take him off there. So, we're left with no choice but to make his regular shift that of the 3rd pairing, i.e. as the #5 guy.Ha! I'm a genius.Reported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 @JackStrawYeah, I deserved that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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