So what now?

[terp]

@AJgoal

I think the PA would object to a player having to stay out of the line up because of both financial and non financial reasons.

Obviously, the players want to play. It isn't all about the money. Also, even if we suppose it is all about the money, how can a guy play himself into a better contract if he doesn't play? How does he earn his incentives? The LTIR tag makes the player's market value drop like a stone so, if the player thinks he doesn't belong there and can indeed play, he will want to get off it ASAP.

[terp]

@aziz

This puts the Flyers in a terrible situation, unless Pronger has made it abundantly clear to them that he's done, which he almost certainly hasn't done at this point and nor will he for some time to come. They are completely unable for the moment to contemplate replacing him in any long term manner via trade or FA. So long as he might decide to come back, they are in limbo.

I would guess that over the summer we'll know more. Meanwhile, we're in limbo too.

[brelic]

From Eric Engels on Hockeybuzz

3) Pronger theory:

It's horrible to know on December 15th that Pronger's concussion is so bad, that the rest of the season and the playoffs are completely out of the question.

It's shocking that the Philadelphia Flyers have exacted this policy.

We're talking about the team that allowed Eric Lindros, Simon Gagne and Keith Primeau to put their careers on the lines at times when they should've been sitting in quiet rooms.

That's not intended to be a shot across Ed Snider's bow, because surely the Flyers weren't the only team to put their players at risk before the discussion of concussion protocol proliferated to the degree at which it's at today.

There's no doubting how serious Pronger's condition is, otherwise the Flyers wouldn't have ever shut him down for the year. As mentioned above, they've been through this before.

However, how could anyone predict--even given the gravity of Pronger's situation right now--that he wouldn't be able to get back for the playoffs, or before then?

The Flyers obviously don't want to play the wait and see game, because it's not consistent with their organizational philosophy, not with a piece as important as Pronger.

Exhibit A; the playoffs last season. The team can't win in that setting without a Pronger-like presence.

The Flyers always go for it. There's no "we're going to make the playoffs and take it from there,". It's "we're going to compete for the Stanley Cup, every year,".

It's why they traded for Pronger in the first place, why they traded Richards and Carter out of town and focused on finally signing a top-tier goalie.

And make no mistake about it, the Flyers can get to the playoffs without Pronger easily, as they're currently constructed.

Replacing him will be about how they can win the Cup without him. Even if the team wasn't sold on the idea that Pronger would miss the rest of the season and the playoffs, his questionable status and his ability to recover and be the same player at 37 puts a real wretch in their plans.

So now, they have no worry about clearing cap space after replacing him through long-term injury reserve. And they're under no pressure to clear cap space in seeking out a replacement.

Over the next few days, you're going to hear names like that of Sergei Gonchar, or other prolific defensemen who could be considered available, but don't adequately replace what Pronger brings to the Flyers.

There's only one player in the league who gives the Flyers what they want to go out and compete for the Cup.

His name is Shea Weber.

And Holmgren wouldn't even have to move a roster player to get him.

Take two first rounders for 2012, 2013, take Brayden Schenn, and take another prospect or pick and trade it all to Nashville for a chance to add a Norris-worthy defenseman; an RFA at the end of the year; A young guy who is most capable of replacing Pronger; for a chance to win the Stanley Cup, right now!

Worry about clearing space next year to sign him long-term. If the Flyers get Weber, they won't lose him for anything.

There's a million other moves they can make to make it work. Whether it's shipping Van Riemsdyk out to get one of those 1st rounders back in the off-season, or getting rid of Timmonen somehow, or having Pronger retire (as if he wasn't going to before his contract expired anyways).

There's always a way, and no other team has proven that more than the Flyers in the post-cap era.

[Mad Dog]

I'll throw something else out there for deliberating (FC - more so for you since you mentioned you would trade everybody but Giroux for Weber... which I actually agree with). But would you include Couturier as part of the package to get Weber. Personally, I would NOT. So at least to me, that's two people (Couturier and Giroux) who I consider untouchable.

But to answer a direct question posed in this thread: what now? Frankly? Absolutely nothing. Seriously. Not right now anyway. Bourdon is playing some really terrific hockey – much better than I even thought he is capable of. Marshall is not there yet, and Gustavsson is a spare part. So the question becomes: can Bourdon hold his own in the playoffs. That, to me, is what the decision boils down to. I don’t mean to trivialize it as this is much more cumbersome than the way I make it sound, but on the basic level, that's the gist of the problem. Logic suggests, Bourdon will hit the wall, but remember we still have – at least on paper – a very decent defensive corps. Mezsaros, Carle, Timonen, and Coburn will be relied upon heavily to carry the load. Bourdon will not be looked at to play a major role. I really think this team can pull this off. But the trade deadline is when the decision would need to made IMHO, not right now.

Much like everybody, I would LOVE to see Weber in orange and black. But the Predators’ GM won’t just hand him to us. The price will be very steep as this is one of the top 5 d-men in the league we are talking. In fact, I am not sure who I would even rank higher than him at this point when considering defense and offense. Maybe Letang, and that’s a big ‘maybe’. And he didn’t even reach his full prime. It will take more than just JVR to get Weber. The team is playing quite well without Pronger. What’s the urgency?

[flyercanuck]

I'd trade ANYONE other than Giroux. Couturier will likely end up being a great hockey player. Weber IS a great hockey player. And he's only 27. Timonen won't be around for long. Briere either. Weber lets us take a shot now, and later.

Letang over Weber? I'm not seeing that.

Edited December 16, 2011 by flyercanuck

[Mad Dog]

Letang over Weber? I'm not seeing that.

No no, I am not comparing Letang with Weber. I am just using Letang's name to make a point that young quality d-men in this league are a rarity.

But purely hypothetically and for shits and giggles, let's say the Pens learn that Crosby is lost for the rest of the year, and we are in the similar situation with Pronger. The Flyers need to fill the void created by a great d-man and the Pens have a void created by a great forward. Both teams suddenly have needs. Would you trade JVR or Couturier and a 1st round (and something else) for Letang?

[jammer2]

_{I agree it would take JVR, a first rounder plus another prospect to make this trade for Weber happen....I would be in favour of it....guy like Weber do not grow on trees.....and that's from a guy who HATES to give up any picks or not level talent like JVR..but ya gotta give to get a guy like Weber...his smarts and physicality are unmatched. Great shot from the point on the power play...if there is way to get him in the Orange and Black...you do it. Maybe at some point Pronger does come back...imagine the physicality of Weber, Pronger and the youngster Bourdon....we would be unmatched on the physical side of the equation...which is VERY important in the playoffs. I'd do this.....make it happen Homer!}

[Vanflyer]

I'll take my chances on Weber/Schenn over Pronger/JVR. I'm using that comparison cause we're basically playing without Schenn (and Pronger...and JVR for the most part)

The problem that worries me about that whole scenario (though I sure it can be fudged) is what happens if Pronger says he wants to come back and play? I agree with you and JVR and the whole effort thing. I don't get it.

[LeafSuck16]

Flyercanuck, was thinking the same thing, I hope they don't give up anything we have in the line-up right now, they look pretty good and are playing well together. I hope Homer can get a deal, where only one regular goes and maybe a prospect or two, maybe a draft pick. We have a nice looking rookie class right now and may just be set up for years to come.

[flyercanuck]

@Mad Dog

OK, gotcha. That would be a tougher decision, cause as good as Letang is, he's no Shea Weber. But defencemen are more valuable, or lets say quality defencemen are harder to come by, than forwards, especially in Philly. I'd do JVR and a 1st for Letang. Not Couturier. And it's all about effort.

[flyercanuck]

@LeafSuck16

Weber sets us up for years to come too. This isn't getting 34 year old Chris pronger...this is getting in his prime Pronger.

[wcflyer]

Hi WCF- I agree with the philosophy of the first part in playing the kids, but not the second. There are a couple of reasons:

1) Nobody is saying Prongers career is done. To make a move for a top 4 will cost assets.

2) Either Suter or Weber are going to cost 7.5+ million. I just don't see that kind of cash being moved around- especially given the chemistry of this team.

This team is the best team overall that the Flyers have iced in awhile. IMHO, let Carle / Mesz / Coburn / Kimmo be the guys. Ice time to Bourdon / Guz will be a bonus in experience and payoff more down the line. Everyone forgets how good Gus was. 18 minutes a night and a +5.

Hi Van, Homer has some decisions to make by the trade deadline. Experience would be good for the youngin's, but looking at the score against Boston now, it's obvious that they are not ready for bigtime hockey against the big bad Bruins. Another top 4 guy would be nice, move Mezaros to 3d pairing, doesn't have to be Weber or Suter. Marshall looks like he lost on some shifts.

[doom88]

I'm okay with Mesz and Carle, Timonen and Coburn. Marshall does not look like he can handle this game. We are essentially playing with five, Bourdon belongs here. Can't wait until Gus is healthy.

[OH1FlyersFan]

What do you think we could get for Bryz???? Be nice to have a steady, consistent goalie like Thomas - who just got his 4th shutout of the season.

[flyercanuck]

What do you think we could get for Bryz???? Be nice to have a steady, consistent goalie like Thomas - who just got his 4th shutout of the season.

You mean what would we have to give up to get rid of him? NINE years for subpar goaltending is going to be hard to get rid of.

[brelic]

Thomas has a superhuman .941 save %, even better than the NHL record he set last year with .938.

Meanwhile, the man who ponders the great mysteries of the universe has an .896 save % this year with a 2.92 GAA. Maybe he should try to figure out how he managed to swindle $51M out of Homer.

[flyercanuck]

Bryz sucks in net. But more importantly, he's a great interview.

[Vincent05]

I rather buy Brzy contract out next year if the new CBA allows one then Prongers. Prongers contract is shorter and less of a cap hit. I would put Bob in net, he can't be any worst then Brzy so far.

[flyercanuck]

I would too. Prongers is shorter, less cap hit, and we will likely LTIR the duration of it. Of course if Bryz keeps playing the way he has, Philly fans will likely LTIR him if they get ahold of him.

[brelic]

I would too. Prongers is shorter, less cap hit, and we will likely LTIR the duration of it. Of course if Bryz keeps playing the way he has, Philly fans will likely LTIR him if they get ahold of him.

If this is the level of play Bryz will bring, it will be interesting to see how long he lasts.

[OH1FlyersFan]

Maybe he should try to figure out how he managed to swindle $51M out of Homer.

He's really a genius in disguise. Now if we could just get him to apply himself as a goalie......

[Vincent05]

He's really a genius in disguise. Now if we could just get him to apply himself as a goalie......

Why should he now that he got 51mil guarenteed. So instead of thinking how to stop pucks from going in, he ponders other things like the universe lol

[LeafSuck16]

@flyercanuck Weber would set us up for a while, but I'd really like to keep these young kids that are playing major minutes and playing well. I know they will have to give someone up, but 2 or 3.

[flyercanuck]

I wouldn't give up 2 or 3. I mean it depends on who, but I'd only give one of Couturier/Schenn/JVR. Weber can play half the game, PK,PP, 5 on 5. IMO he's the best defenceman in the world.

[flyerrod]

No no, I am not comparing Letang with Weber. I am just using Letang's name to make a point that young quality d-men in this league are a rarity.

But purely hypothetically and for shits and giggles, let's say the Pens learn that Crosby is lost for the rest of the year, and we are in the similar situation with Pronger. The Flyers need to fill the void created by a great d-man and the Pens have a void created by a great forward. Both teams suddenly have needs. Would you trade JVR or Couturier and a 1st round (and something else) for Letang?

To the Pens...NO WAY IN HELL! After watching Cooter play and excel at every facet of the game at the ripe old age of 18/19, he is with Giroux in the not available for trade block.