Lavy in trouble or does the front office not care?

[ruxpin]

You cannot put the motor of a Ford Tempo into the body of a Formula 1 racing car and expect to win the Indy 500.

Why do you hate America?

[ruxpin]

I get people being unsettled about losing Carle but why Jagr? Do you think if he is playing this year that Voracek has a breakout year? I don't. Who would you rather have that standout season. A young, budding talent who hasn't reached their prime or an aged vet who is on the twilight of his career? Jagr broke down by the end of last season. He wasn't nearly as effective coming down the stretch and in the playoffs as he was in the beginning of the season.

I think that is a fair question. I would rather Voracek, myself. I think the clamour is about the loss of a vet presence that seemed from the outside to be doing some good beyond what appears on the score sheet. But your point is well made.

Given our defense, I'm more irritated with having left Carle go. I can actually say that with a straight face since I was one of minority who liked him while he was here. Of course now you won't find anyone with anything bad to say about Carle.

[brelic]

I get people being unsettled about losing Carle but why Jagr? Do you think if he is playing this year that Voracek has a breakout year? I don't. Who would you rather have that standout season. A young, budding talent who hasn't reached their prime or an aged vet who is on the twilight of his career? Jagr broke down by the end of last season. He wasn't nearly as effective coming down the stretch and in the playoffs as he was in the beginning of the season.

That's a fair point. I'm really enjoying the breakout year that Voracek is having.

But for Jagr, I think it was also (or primarily) his off ice influence that impressed people. He really opened some eyes with his dedication and work ethic.

[brelic]

I think that is a fair question. I would rather Voracek, myself. I think the clamour is about the loss of a vet presence that seemed from the outside to be doing some good beyond what appears on the score sheet. But your point is well made.

Given our defense, I'm more irritated with having left Carle go. I can actually say that with a straight face since I was one of minority who liked him while he was here. Of course now you won't find anyone with anything bad to say about Carle.

We replied at the same time

[OccamsRazor]

I agree about Ruff. I wouldn't want him either. Maybe it's because he's got Buffalo-taint on him.

As for Tocchet, well, he only has 2 seasons of NHL coaching experience. So he's still green and maybe not the right guy for this team. I don't know what his style is.

Wouldn't that be something to have the FO cleaned up and have Tocchet as coach and Hextall as GM? Haha, it'd be like 1987 all over again.

You say that like they've never pulled this before. I think they really believe that Leighton and Boosh are capable backups. Delusional, I know. Actually, Boosh ain't that bad, but Leighton is another story. How he's made millions of dollars is beyond me.

I think they were so focused on what they didn't have (Suter, Parise, Weber) that they totally neglected what they did have. ANd what they had was a team ecstatic with Jagr's presence on and off the ice, and a steady, if unspectacular defenseman in Carle.

F!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ruxpin]

We replied at the same time

Funny the part about Jagr was nearly the same.

[PhilsFanDrew]

@brelic@ruxpin

You mean with Timonen, Hartnell, Talbot, Briere, etc that their was a lack of off the ice influence and vet leadership? I find that argument flimsy at best and even if were to buy in completely he's still not worth a cap hit of $4.55 million.

[ruxpin]

@brelic@ruxpin

You mean with Timonen, Hartnell, Talbot, Briere, etc that their was a lack of off the ice influence and vet leadership? I find that argument flimsy at best and even if were to buy in completely he's still not worth a cap hit of $4.55 million.

He's not worth the cap hit.

Talbot and Timo do some of the vet leadership thing, but since Talbot is a 3rd/4th liner it doesn't carry as much weight as a top two liner. And Timo for the D but that doesn't translate necessarily for the forwards. Hartnell is just a goof.

I think the "vet leadership" thing in the case of Jagr is probably a bit overstated, but I do think his "star" status and leadership had an effect on some of the kids.

[radoran]

There is a bit of an assumption that it would have taken $4.5M to re-sign Jagr in Philly before the FA period began.

From what has been reported, there were no such negotiations and Jagr was basically told "wait here, and if we can't sign X, Y or Z then we'll get you an offer."

I speculate that Dallas - a team not in "contender" status - overpaid for Jagr.

I think he had a positive impact on Giroux's game and opened up space for him. I think, being Voracek's childhood idol, he also had a positive impact on Jake.

I wouldn't have signed him for $4.5M, but I think he was a better option than tilting at the Suter/Parise/Weber windmill.

[brelic]

@brelic@ruxpin

You mean with Timonen, Hartnell, Talbot, Briere, etc that their was a lack of off the ice influence and vet leadership? I find that argument flimsy at best and even if were to buy in completely he's still not worth a cap hit of $4.55 million.

Yeah, I think Jagr opened some eyes. Hartnell was quoted as being just blown away by Jagr's work ethic. I think they were on a roadtrip, everyone was beat, and Jagr comes up to them at like midnight, and says "COme on, we're going for a run". Add to that Jagr's own key to the practice rink for late night skates.

The other guys have all had important roles too, just maybe a little more understated. Briere is good with the rooks, Talbot keeps the locker room loose, Timo, well I'm not sure what he does, but he's been around long enough to know what it takes.

[brelic]

I wouldn't have signed him for $4.5M, but I think he was a better option than tilting at the Suter/Parise/Weber windmill.

I might not *really* mean this, but I think one year of Jagr at $4.5M is a smarter investment than 14 years of Suter at $7.5M. I would not take the gamble that Suter will still be playing hockey at age 42. It helps the team short term, but hurts them long term. And Philly should be moving away from bad long-term moves.

I also think Weber for 14 years would have been a mistake.

[Flyingswede]

Firing Lavy would be stupid. He is a coach who knows how to win the cup, period. I cant see anyone better at the market. Hell, I cant see anyone in NHL who would be better, maybe a few. But when our ROSTER is the REAL PROBLEM, firing Lavy wouldnt solve anything.

[jammer2]

@radoran "I speculate that Dallas - a team not in "contender" status - overpaid for Jagr."

As of right now, I'd agree, but if the Stars are out of it at the deadline, or just become sellers, what they get in return for renting out Jagr just might make up for the overpayment....in spades even.

[radoran]

@radoran "I speculate that Dallas - a team not in "contender" status - overpaid for Jagr."

As of right now, I'd agree, but if the Stars are out of it at the deadline, or just become sellers, what they get in return for renting out Jagr just might make up for the overpayment....in spades even.

If you'd care to look back, that was my theory from the moment the deal was signed.

How much juwanna bet the price is a second rounder from Philadelphia?

[jammer2]

@radoran "If you'd care to look back"

Nah, I believe you, sounds like a logical thought you would come up with.....lol.

[Samifan]

I only brought up Ruff's name because I heard the TSN panel talking about how he is a high profile coach that will end up with work soon. They also mentioned the Flyers were a team interested in Ruff. I HATE RUFF more than anyone and agree he is overrated. The only reason he lasted him Buffalo 16 years is because their ownership and management is inept and accepts average results. Those of you from the old board may remember my posts about Ruff always having that puss on his face like "he just got is dick caught in a mouse trap."

[ruxpin]

@radoran "If you'd care to look back"

Nah, I believe you, sounds like a logical thought you would come up with.....lol.

We are borg. Resistance is futile.

[flyercanuck]

We are borg. Resistance is futile.

LMFAO!

[BearOnIce]

i dont see how Lavvy can be blamed for this season, Holmgren is the one who built this team. Holmgren gambled for Suter, Parise and Weber and he struck out. and in the process lost Jagr and Carle. Holmgren signed Bryz and traded Bob. Of course in the end, the coach is always the first to go, but if you fire Lavvy, then Homer should go to. The bottom line is this, even if we make the playoffs,we are not going very far. I hope we dont get in, and then hopefully we get lucky and end up with a high draft pick and finally pick a top notch defenseman. I really dont want us to trade any young players for some over the hill guy like Ingila

RonJeremy:

You hit the nail on the head. Essentially a coach works with what he is given. He establishes a system and the players work within. He motivates, leads, disciplines, and makes decisions for the product that he has to work with on the ice.

The Flyers gambled this summer and lost. They bet the ranch on getting a Sutter or Weber. Worse in the process they took their eye off the puck, did not pay sufficient time or attention negociating with Matt Carle's agent and he moved on. They felt the devistating D long-range loss of Pronger. He was the D piller that everything has gone south with since. They miscalculated Jagr. Then lost in the sweepstakes for Parise. They overcalculated the readiness of their young core. They threw the die with Bryz but made a mistake trading an able-bodied backup in Bob. They put a C on Giroux that hangs very heavy on his young man's shoulders right now. This is all on the GM. Is the GM a bad one? That can be argued and can only be eventually determined when you look at the overall moves and career of any GM.

I say keep the young core. Forget about this year except to make smart, long-range moves to improve this team's overall skill, depth, especially D. Develop rather than trade, other than exception. But make some moves that are necessary. I would move Briere to a contender. I consider Colburn tradeable for the right deal. Start thinking post-Kimmo. Rusty, Talbot, and the like are interchangeable journeymen pieces. I would keep Bryz because he has done amazingly well for literally not having an NHL-level D in front of him. I would get a capable back-up. Boosh and Leightoin bye. The D is the focus because that is where the problems all start now with this team this year.

And yes, I would keep Peter Laviolette. I might also bring Murray up as an assistant. I do think the future GM of this franchise could be Ron Hextall. Next year, not this year, but next year I suggest that if the team we were expecting this year does not come together next year, then I think Snider may pull the trigger on Paul Holmgren and make that movement toward someone like a Ron Hextall. He is after all both a competent product in LA, and he is a Flyer and as long as Ed Snider is involved, he leans in that direction.

I would love to see Chris Pronger move into an assistance general manager role with this organzation. He would bring Hall of Fame credentials to player selection and development, especially D. He would also give Hextall an even more needed "outside of the organization independent thinking". As we all know, Chris is not afraid to tell it like it is. I have no doubt that Chris Pronger will also some day be a very good GM in the NHL and sought after.

BOI

[mojo1917]

With the roster and injuries, I don't know if I can put the blame for this teams performance solely at Laviolette's feet. The team as has been noted here has some structural deficiencies. There have been a pretty high number of games lost to injury to guys expected to play big roles, harts, Mez, read, have been out for significant periods of time, lines have been juggled as a result. Our veteran leadership has not performed on the ice, Timmonen and Briere in particular. G has been okay better since Hartnell's return.

I didn't see the pens game, but I didn't see a lack of effort vs the rangers though I found something else to do after 4-2.

Fire homer, get POA from snider before we fire Lavy.