To all of the Couturier believers

[brelic]

I don't know where you found that, but that's awesome. So, if I'm counting correctly, in six games, Coots was on the ice for 2 assists and 1 power play goal. That's not too shabby.

Yeah, that's pretty good. If you take into account Couturier's 2 points against Malkin's line, that makes it even more impressive, leaving us with a 1 point differential. Malkin got 3 of his 8 points against Couturier, but Coots got 2 of his 4 points against Malkin's line.

I had to go back and look at each individual game log.

[brelic]

More than a lot of people realize. Which is why it would be really nice to nab one of the top 2 or 3 defencemen this year. This team could be built into a true contender in 3 to 5 years if management (and fans) could have a little patience.

I'm thinking that ship has sailed for nabbing a top 3 defenseman. Jones, Nurse, and Zadorov will probably be gone by the time we draft. Ristolainen might still be on the board, and sounds like a great candidate for what this team needs.

[flyercanuck]

@brelic

I'm actually hoping for Ristolainen over Zadorov. I don't believe in taking shutdown defencemen top 10. And Zadorovs stats are overinflated due to playing on a really stacked Knights team. I'd like the Flyers to get more of a Pronger-light/Timonen type player than another Luke Schenn.

[ctid]

Game 1 - No points for either Coots or Malkin

Game 2 - Coots had 4 points, Malkin was on the ice for 2 of those (Goal, and Assist on Giroux's empty netter)

Malkin had 2 points, Coots was not on the ice for any of them

Game 3 - Coots had 0 points

Malkin had 2 assists, Coots was on the ice for one of them

Game 4 - Coots had 0 points

Malkin had 3 points, Coots was on the ice for one assist

Game 5 - Coots had 0 points

Malkin had 0 points

Game 6 - Coots had 0 points

Malkin had 1 goal, Coots was on the ice for that goal

If that is true then Coots shutdown Malkin, no question.

[jammer2]

@ruxpin Well, you guys made some pretty valid points...I just looked at the 8 pts by Malkin and could not really deem it "shut down". There is no mistake, a young kid played very well against a top shelf elite talent in the world. There is a lot to be proud of there, didn't mean at all to say Coots should not be praised...the kid obviously played great.

What I really want to see, is *when* Malkin's pts came, were they garbage pts when the game was out of reach, or were they crucial pts that helped them catch up, tie or win games, that's where the telling point is for me. Just skipped through the thread, but don't think anyone touched on that.

[Polaris922]

I'm not demeaning Couturier's potential. I'm simply saying Malkin did no better or worse against him than he's done against most other centers in first round playoff series. He has a habit of disappearing first round then cranking up mid-playoffs, then disappearing again in Cup games. I don't think Couturier mattered. I think Malkin was playing his usual way. Much as you're seeing Giroux this season. He's averaging a point per game, but it's in bunches not consistency.

[Flyingswede]

The commentary from the rangers game: "and here is Couturier trying to get his legs going" when he was on a break a way (failed to score).

Too funny and so true.

[terp]

I have no problem--I don't even blink on it--giving Couts the helluvalot of credit he deserves for that series. Malkin was a non-factor.

However, because Couturier is a such a bad skater (the worst in the league...and perhaps the worst in the world), ipso facto Jay Rosehill could have shut down Malkin in that series if he had only been given the opportunity. Logic clearly dictates that you don't need to skate very well to shut down Malkin, so Couturier really proved nothing by severely limiting his production in that series. Case closed.

[LegionOfDoom]

Do you want this kid to get better or toss him out?

Do you want this team to develop young talent or buy/trade for it?

There is a disagreeing of the minds, which is it.

Fact: The reality of the cap going down, WILL limit how we use to, operate.

How many can honestly say, there's no hope for his skating.

Look at Hartnell, this season there really was no Hartnell down(except the time I brought up how great he was in evading two forchecks against him and being able to KEEP HIS BALANCE (!!AND!!) skate away with the puck!....only to fall down on his own right after! good grief Charlie Brown! But puttin' in the work helped him out.

We are somewhat in new territory again in developing from within(even though technically we're dealing with our trades/picks comps.)

So what's it gonna be?

I say buy, not sell the youth. Buy into developing them for a few years,

There should be optional/mandatory clinics on skill sets for players to do during the offseason and days off.

That's where I miss Jagr. The owness was on getting/staying better. Dam he was THAT! important for our youth development. More important than a Weber, Parise(in a subtle subliminal sort of way). This is where a vantage-astute, acuity position, in the scheme of things come to play in core management.

That is why you hold on, step back from the smoke and mirrors.

Though it hurts...you keep Briere(important piece)

You keep Rinaldo, Talbot, Gagne,if possible Fedetenko.

And you keep our youth. You let Gus "tryout" and you cast your line out there and keep fishing for the big one, while developing yours.

We are gonna live in a league where it's gonna be hard to buy talent, when your rolling a big payroll already. I can see why Bryz will be bought out this year...cap relief!... take me away.

If our team played like a machine, we wouldn't be hurting so much for an all ticket Defenseman.

And for pete sakes Couts get your ass to skate class and Put in the work if you want to stay(alot of good it does to stick ones neck out for someone and the bum just burps out another flavor of gabba gool) And I aint bustin' your balls...Capise'

[brelic]

Do you want this kid to get better or toss him out?

Do you want this team to develop young talent or buy/trade for it?

There is a disagreeing of the minds, which is it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would love to hang on to Couturier if we can. I wouldn't consider trading him because I give up on him, but because he's about the most valuable trading chip we have to address areas the GM has ignored in the past. Not a single defenseman in our regular (read: pre-injuries) top 7 is a Flyers draftee (Timo/Coburn/Mesz/Schenn/Grossman/Gervais/Foster). If you want to include Gus, he wasn't drafted by us either. He was a free agent signing.

We are quickly falling out of prime drafting area. If we do draft a defenseman, chances are he will not be ready for the NHL for a few seasons, and then really won't be a factor for another 3-4 years. And outside of Jones and Nurse, I don't know that any of the first round defensemen project to top pairing potential.

Our goaltending is also unstable. I think it's clear that Bryz will NOT be here after next season, so that will have to be addressed as well. And we really have nothing in the pipeline for the immediate future, and Stolarz is still too young to know if he will pan out.

So, that being said, if we *need* to move Coots to adequately address those self-inflicted deficiencies, so be it.

It sucks. But that's what happens when you keep drafting forwards.

[ruxpin]

However, because Couturier is a such a bad skater (the worst in the league...and perhaps the worst in the world), ipso facto Jay Rosehill could have shut down Malkin in that series if he had only been given the opportunity. Logic clearly dictates that you don't need to skate very well to shut down Malkin, so Couturier really proved nothing by severely limiting his production in that series. Case closed.

Case isn't closed. Why? Because that's an insanely stupid argument. You invoke logic? You can't even send mail from that argument to the logic neighborhood. Malkin has proven it's not easy to shut him down or no one would even be talking about it. He doesn't end up being among the league leaders in goals and points every year, when he's healthy, because he's easy to shut down. For his career, Malkin's a 1.22 PPG player in the regular season and a 1.19 PPG player in the playoffs. Even in the series he was supposedly shut down, he was a 1.33 PPG player. Do you even read what you write or do you just vomit on your keyboard?

And he was NOT a bad skater in that series. There's not one person on this board who can HONESTLY say they noticed anything with his skating last year. This year is a different story--an almost inexplicable story. but even now he's not the worst in the league let alone in the world.

I'm sorry, but that was quite possibly the dumbest post I've seen in quite awhile.

[brelic]

Do you even read what you write or do you just vomit on your keyboard?

You just made me spit up my coffee I nominate this for best line of the year!

[terp]

Case isn't closed. Why? Because that's an insanely stupid argument. You invoke logic? You can't even send mail from that argument to the logic neighborhood. Malkin has proven it's not easy to shut him down or no one would even be talking about it. He doesn't end up being among the league leaders in goals and points every year, when he's healthy, because he's easy to shut down. For his career, Malkin's a 1.22 PPG player in the regular season and a 1.19 PPG player in the playoffs. Even in the series he was supposedly shut down, he was a 1.33 PPG player. Do you even read what you write or do you just vomit on your keyboard?

And he was NOT a bad skater in that series. There's not one person on this board who can HONESTLY say they noticed anything with his skating last year. This year is a different story--an almost inexplicable story. but even now he's not the worst in the league let alone in the world.

I'm sorry, but that was quite possibly the dumbest post I've seen in quite awhile.

I'm disappointed you missed my attempt at humor.

[ruxpin]

I'm disappointed you missed my attempt at humor.

Oh...

Well, then, proceed to fire away at the idiot. My apologies.

[terp]

Oh...

Well, then, proceed to fire away at the idiot. My apologies.

I tried being serious on this thread and it got me nowhere so I threw in a little absurdity. Sorry you ran afoul. The lack of outrage other than yours was a sad testament.

[ruxpin]

I'm disappointed you missed my attempt at humor.

To be honest, I should have realized it was humor because I don't think I've ever read a dumb post from you. Not that we've always agreed, but I don't think I've ever read a post from you and had to double check who wrote it. Sorry again for the response.

[aziz]

@terp

testify!

also: reported

[flyercanuck]

I'm not demeaning Couturier's potential. I'm simply saying Malkin did no better or worse against him than he's done against most other centers in first round playoff series. He has a habit of disappearing first round then cranking up mid-playoffs, then disappearing again in Cup games. I don't think Couturier mattered. I think Malkin was playing his usual way. Much as you're seeing Giroux this season. He's averaging a point per game, but it's in bunches not consistency.

So a 19 year old rookie playing against one of the top players in the world in a heated playoff rivalry holds that player to ONE goal and TWO assists while scoring a goal and an assist himself and you don't think he mattered?

Philly is having a bad year this year so I don't think your team is relevant.

[Polaris922]

So a 19 year old rookie playing against one of the top players in the world in a heated playoff rivalry holds that player to ONE goal and TWO assists while scoring a goal and an assist himself and you don't think he mattered?

Philly is having a bad year this year so I don't think your team is relevant.

You have to understand where I'm coming from with this... That's normal Malkin almost every first playoff series. It's like he needs a round to warm up. It hasn't really mattered who lined up with him as much as how deep they're into the playoffs.

I've said this since joining the forums last year. I don't think you guys noticed it before but even in the 2009 series we won against you guys he vanished till round 2. It's just his norm. But then he exploded in round two and had his best stars ever in the playoffs.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Polaris922

[Clarke2Leach]

I can't believe nobody's done this on this thread already, so here it is.

2011 Draft

(pick-name-2012 pts- 2013 pts)

1. Nugent Hopkins 52 23

2. Landeskog 52 15

3. Huberdeau QMJHL 27

4. Larsson 18 5

5. Strome OHL OHL

6. Zibanejad 1 20

7. Scheifle 1 0

8. Couturier 27 14

9. Hamilton OHL 15

10. Brodin SWE 10

11. Siemens WHL WHL

12. Murphy OHL 0

13. Baertschi 3 5

14. Oleksiak OHL 2

15. Miller OHL 4

Anyone see a pattern here? Every player in the top 15 who played a significant amount of games (Hopkins, Landeskog, Coots) has seen their production go way down this year. The others didn't even (or hardly) get their feet wet in the NHL in year 1. The sophomore slump is real - as previously pointed out. If Couturier's ceiling is what we saw against Pittsburgh in the playoffs last year, I'd take that any day of the week. Sure, he has to get up to that level, but he's already proven he can at least be that good and he doesn't even turn 21 until this December.

Give the kid a break. There is nothing wrong with his trajectory at this point.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Clarke2Leach

[aziz]

<br />That's normal Malkin almost every first playoff series. It's like he needs a round to warm up. It hasn't really mattered who lined up with him as much as how deep they're into the playoffs.<br />

I get that, and think you are probably right. then again, the fact that an 18 yearold even looked like he belonged lined up against malkin is not nothing. whether malkin would have done more with a different match up is unknown, but we took heart that couturier seemed up to the job right out of the gate.

[flyercanuck]

@Clarke2Leach

I'd mentioned Couturiers point production compared to others in his draft but didn't lay it out like you did. Thanks.

[ruxpin]

You have to understand where I'm coming from with this... That's normal Malkin almost every first playoff series. It's like he needs a round to warm up. It hasn't really mattered who lined up with him as much as how deep they're into the playoffs.

I've said this since joining the forums last year. I don't think you guys noticed it before but even in the 2009 series we won against you guys he vanished till round 2. It's just his norm. But then he exploded in round two and had his best stars ever in the playoffs.

I want to agree with this...because I have actually noticed that seems to be his MO.

On the other hand, Malkin had three goals and five assists in that series. 1 PPG and 2 assists with Coots on the ice. 2 G and 3 A with him off. Since Coots was on with Malkin more than he wasn't, I'd have to reason that he did have an effect.

[Polaris922]

I want to agree with this...because I have actually noticed that seems to be his MO.

On the other hand, Malkin had three goals and five assists in that series. 1 PPG and 2 assists with Coots on the ice. 2 G and 3 A with him off. Since Coots was on with Malkin more than he wasn't, I'd have to reason that he did have an effect.

I'll just agree to disagree then. I don't see a two point difference when the team around him is sucking as an impact.

[brelic]

I'll just agree to disagree then. I don't see a two point difference when the team around him is sucking as an impact.

They scored 26 goals in 6 games, for an average of 4.33 goals per game. During the regular season, they averaged 3.44 goals per game.

SO, yes, they sucked defensively for sure. So did the Flyers But last I checked, Malkin's job is not defense, but to contribute to goal scoring. So in that respect, if Couturier limited Malkin to 3 points while they were on the ice together, it would seem like he did his job.