Bryz: Trying to get out?

[radoran]

Not saying it fixes the franchise, and I don't think anyone is. It's a team, and they all need to work hard. Goalie does happen to be the most important position though, and requires an excellent team to overcome mediocrity at the position. It's that important.

Preaching to the choir, actually. And I do think that in the postseason a hot goalie can win a Cup. But the position does take far too much scrutiny and criticism, especially in Philadelphia. And the regular season is a different animal.

This is not limited to a discussion about Bryzgalov, nor is it absolving him of cupability. But a few posts ago aziz is saying that the same scoring should have been a "successful" season given the .16 edge the Flyers had over the average league GAA.

Bryz was 2.19/.924 in January. The team was 2-4. Win three of those four losses and you're in the playoffs even with Bryz as the 23rd ranked goalie.

If you can't win five of six with your goalie going 2.19/.924 that's not on the goalie. That's on the team not scoring enough.

I like the composition of the team going forward. I believe Bryzgalov absolutely, positively must be bought out. I think that the scoring will go back up as the young core grows. The Flyers took effectively a few steps back in terms of development with the Crater/Richards deals and then losing Pronger. I think they missed Jagr's veteran presence and Carle's puck moving ability. Injuries on defense have been rampant as well - was there one game in which the projected starting six were on the ice together - this season or last?

This organization has lacked a long term plan forever. I have always believed - and have a history of posting - that this team's "down year" should be a 6-8 seed "with a chance to make some noise." If they'd simply reloaded last year's gun they likely would have been better than that and we could be talking about Bryz screwing up in the second round right now instead of his perspective on History's Greatest Dictators.

Even so, with some timely scoring in January while their goalie is playing well, they're an 8 seed even if nothing else is different.

[aziz]

@radoran

If the Flyers score 3.1 gpg as opposed to 2.7 and their GAA remains exactly the same at 23rd-worst in the league, you would likely have seen at least the six or seven points that puts them into the playoffs

Well of course it would. Rephrasing that, if the flyers scored the 4th most goals in the league, they would have made the playoffs. No question. When you are qualifying blame on the goaltender by saying the offense didn't get it done, either.. and THAT is what would be required for the offense to have gotten it done.....you have to see that's crazy. I mean, if the offense had scored eleventybillion goals, they would have made the playoffs, but that can hardly be seen as a reasonable requirement. If your team HAS to rank in the top 4 offensive teams to overcome its goaltending, the offense isn't what needs to be discussed.

[aziz]

<br />But a few posts ago aziz is saying that the same scoring should have been a "successful" season given the .16 edge the Flyers had over the average league GAA.<br />

yes. 9th in scoring and 15th in goals against should have you in the top 16 teams in the league. that is what i'm saying. 9th in scoring and 23rd in goals against doesn't. looking at those pairs of numbers, coming to any conclusion other than the goals against being the problem child confuses me.

Bryz was 2.19/.924 in January. The team was 2-4. Win three of those four losses and you're in the playoffs even with Bryz as the 23rd ranked goalie.

If you can't win five of six with your goalie going 2.19/.924 that's not on the goalie. That's on the team not scoring enough.

that's on this weirdo season magnifying a short slump. a 6 game stretch should not be extrapolated into what failed the team this season, or what needs to be addressed going into next season.

The Flyers took effectively a few steps back in terms of development with the Crater/Richards deals and then losing Pronger.

yes, they did. and I don't know that it was the wrong thing to do. yes, there was a drop off in the pacing offensively this year from last, and from the season prior. that isn't surprising given the team decided to go with a less mature roster. still, they did better than most. better than 2/3rds of everyone else, in fact. they were still ultimately in the high end of the spectrum. a certain other aspect of the team wasn't, however....

[pilldoc]

Doom - this might be the most thoughtful post on the subject yet and I could not have said it better myself. I certainly appreciate your comparison of Bryz and deficating. Well said sir!

Outstanding! I could not have said it any better myself. BTW love the toilet reference.

[radoran]

yes. 9th in scoring and 15th in goals against should have you in the top 16 teams in the league. that is what i'm saying. 9th in scoring and 23rd in goals against doesn't. looking at those pairs of numbers, coming to any conclusion other than the goals against being the problem child confuses me.

And they missed it by six points. Six points they sh/could have had taking advantage at the start of the shortened season their owner was among the principal architects of foisting upon them. They didn't. The offense failed. If we're going to point to the one guy between the pipes - and I have, will and do - we can certainly point at the five guys in front of him.

2.19/.924 - 2-4

Not. The goalie's. Fault.

that's on this weirdo season magnifying a short slump. a 6 game stretch should not be extrapolated into what failed the team this season, or what needs to be addressed going into next season.

I've already said - in this thread - that I expect them to be better next season. I've also said - in this very thread - that if they'd simply reloaded last year's ending roster onto this year, they're in the playoffs.

Talking about the weirdo season that their owner forced upon them is a cop out.

yes, they did. and I don't know that it was the wrong thing to do. yes, there was a drop off in the pacing offensively this year from last, and from the season prior. that isn't surprising given the team decided to go with a less mature roster. still, they did better than most. better than 2/3rds of everyone else, in fact. they were still ultimately in the high end of the spectrum. a certain other aspect of the team wasn't, however....

I'm pretty clear that it was the right thing to do. Supported the trades from the moment they happened. Got younger, cheaper and long term better with them.

But that's exactly the point. To expect the goalie to continually bail out a young, developing team is foolish.

That's a major reason why the Flyers are going to keep Bryz around next season. But, in the end, they will absolutely, positively buy him out. As they should.

The team had a chance to be better than they were this season. The GM sank that when he went chasing free agent dragons and lost the assets the team had in hand.

These aren't opinions. They are facts.

[Lindbergh31]

This organization has lacked a long term plan forever. I have always believed - and have a history of posting - that this team's "down year" should be a 6-8 seed "with a chance to make some noise." If they'd simply reloaded last year's gun they likely would have been better than that and we could be talking about Bryz screwing up in the second round right now instead of his perspective on History's Greatest Dictators.

Even so, with some timely scoring in January while their goalie is playing well, they're an 8 seed even if nothing else is different.

There lies the problem with the Flyers, no long term plan and better yet if they did have a plan actually following that plan. As fans we all know that Snider would trade his wife and kids for one more Stanley Cup before he goes to the big hockey rink in the sky so following a plan won't happen. So unfortunately, until he passes away nothing will change in this organization. I thought after the 2006/07 season the Flyers would build through the draft but they surprised themselves and the fans by going to the Eastern Conference finals in 2008 and the Stanley Cup finals in 2010. Losing Pronger hurt this team in 2011/12 and this past year but having a wingnut like Bryzgalov on the team is unacceptable. The bottom line is Snider and Holmgren panicked when Snider said that they're going to fix the goaltending problem, so they didn't do their homework in Bryzgalov to find out if he's the answer, they just gave him a **** load of money. Little did they know or see is the fact that with a little patience they had a young goalie right in front of their eyes who could have been the one if given a fair chance. Now they have to decide to buyout Bryzgalov this summer or next, personally they might as well buy him out now because he's going to be a distraction all season long next year and if he gets hurt then they won't be able to buy him out.

[aziz]

<br />To expect the goalie to continually bail out a young, developing team is foolish. <br />

I don't disagree, if that young developing team was at this point incapable of being competitive. if you have a team that can not keep up, can't get anything done, then no, you can't expect the goalie alone to make everything ok. but we aren't talking about Columbus here. we aren't talking about a roster that was far from up to the challenge. we're talking about a team that, over the course of the season, outperformed 2/3rds of their peers. didn't get it done like the team had the season prior, but was still under par. over par. whatever.

at this moment, Ottawa, boston, NYR, Detroit, LA, and san jose are still playing. all scored less than the flyers last season. 6 of 8 teams in the second round couldn't muster the offense the flyers were able to provide their goaltender. the suggestion that, overall, that isn't good enough, that that offense was bad to the point of needing to be "continually bailed out" by their goaltender........

yeah, a flat spot in the first two weeks of the season. there were difference making points lost there. bryzgalov put up good numbers over that stretch, but only 2 wins to show for it. of course...if we just look at the 4 losses, byrzgalov put up 2.78/.908 in those. we're talking about a small enough sample that it can go from bryzgalov having a great January to bryzgalov playing well in 2 games and mediocre in the others pretty fast. and, yes, I know the flyers managed all of 4 goals in those 4 games, but my point is we're talking about a tiny sample.

this very same team backed by a goaltender they trust and who can at least provide them with a consistently average performance makes the playoffs. and that's assuming no advances in terms of chemistry or experience, no growth on the part of the very young members of the squad.

[radoran]

In fact, there are examples of goalies who overcame amazing offensive deficiencies - Ottawa being a prime example. Columbus, in fact, another - they scored exactly as much gpg as they did last year. Bobrovsky was the difference. Now, remember, the Flyers had Bobrovsky and the "braintrust" decided that Bryz was their goalie-of-the-next-decade. The same braintrust that's apparently going to "fix it" next time.

I just don't see a wider look at the team's problems as "qualifying blame" on the goaltender.

I think there's more than enough blame for a lot of people - starting, in fact, first and foremost with the GM.

A significant difference with the lower scoring teams is style of play. When you are a go-go, marmalade "jam" team your objective is to outscore the opponent. If you score 3.1 per game, you have a good chance of doing that on a regular basis. At 2.7 it's a crapshoot.

Who made the decision to lose a Hall of Fame veteran who was still producing, your young puck moving defenseman and not to sign a competent backup so Bryz wasn't playing both ends of three of for back to backs in three weeks?

Again, that would be the general manager who was off squandering cap space with offers to players who said they had no interest in coming here instead of locking up a team that had just gotten to the second round. Was this team any better without Jagr and Carle? No. Like a little leaguer swinging for the fences, he struck out.

If there's any blame being "qualified" around here, it's the blame on Homer. And, of course, Snider.

Who are also the guys who decided to bring Bryz back next year.

[ZeZel25]

@phlfly

Ya, he's a really good goalie. Ok, sorry, I can't keep a straight face. :lol:

I'd like to be a Psychiatrist in a room with Bryz and Cechmanek...Oh the dollar signs for therapy

[OccamsRazor]

Goalies can "steal a game" on occasion

And at this point i'd take it...but he has to get the first one much less amny more...he just does not inspire this team....and the first thing he does is point the finger at someone else...that is not a mature adult "teammate"....not a good father figure for his kids...go to look in the mirror.

Also.. "intangibles" don't put on pads and skates!!!

[ruxpin]

Insert, empty-headed, post defending the, goaltender on the, Flyers complete with, completely unnecessary, excessive commas. Don't, forget the, edited by, line.

Edited May 18, 2013 by ruxpin
Here, it is

[aziz]

I just don't see a wider look at the team's problems as "qualifying blame" on the goaltender.

and I don't see 9th in scoring being a problem. an area with potential for improvement, sure, but not a problem.

look, here it is. yes, the team overall was weaker this season than last, and that's on Holmgren. no doubt. but. that as any kind of focus is really nothing more than a windmill. that team made the playoffs yes, but watching those playoffs, that team had no business being there. made the race and then fell straight on their face. if goalscoring was again this season in the top 3, like it was last, then absolutely, they'd have made the playoffs again. and again would have fallen on their face. there is a particular component of this team that ensures they will be outmatched and ultimately embarrassed once the postseason begins, and it isn't their offense. there is a particular individual who has a specific history of pushing playoff runs deep into the mud. this is the same individual who requires the offense sit in the top 3 of the league to make the postseason.

I said it when the guy was first brought to the team, the flyers will fail, and badly, so long as he is on the roster. it does not matter what the rest of the roster is. give him 3.5 goals-for to work with, and the second round will only be possible if the other team collapses utterly. tweaking the offense or the coach or the system, or even the defense is so much twiddling of thumbs so long as he is wearing a flyers jersey.

so, yes, the entire roster could use work. sure. if October 2013 rolls around and he is part of it, though, there is literally no point. which is why I resist conceding any other point. you are right on all fronts, I know, and I apologize for acting like a dick about it, but...I just can't see any of it as relevant until that one guy is dealt with.

Edited May 18, 2013 by aziz

[magnumpi]

Of course he wants out. Flyers will not make a playoff next two-three years, being with Pitts, Caps, Rags, NJ, Isles. He wants to win all the time and it's fine, our D is crap with even Timmo (old man), offense is marginal, 1 1/2 lines max so far. I don't see Flyers have a good group to win 65% game in the season. Believe me they screwed. Also the the cap is going down it will hurt even more with bunch players to sign.

New Jersey is garbage

but there's no way the Flyers beat out pittsburgh, isles, rangers, or caps

[murraycraven]

Rux,

I really like the new avatar... Bryz, on a beach, two dudes... thumbs up to you!

[flyercanuck]

@murraycraven

If he sends you a pm DON"T OPEN IT!!!!!!!

[radoran]

and I don't see 9th in scoring being a problem. an area with potential for improvement, sure, but not a problem.

look, here it is. yes, the team overall was weaker this season than last, and that's on Holmgren. no doubt. but. that as any kind of focus is really nothing more than a windmill. that team made the playoffs yes, but watching those playoffs, that team had no business being there. made the race and then fell straight on their face. if goalscoring was again this season in the top 3, like it was last, then absolutely, they'd have made the playoffs again. and again would have fallen on their face. there is a particular component of this team that ensures they will be outmatched and ultimately embarrassed once the postseason begins, and it isn't their offense. there is a particular individual who has a specific history of pushing playoff runs deep into the mud. this is the same individual who requires the offense sit in the top 3 of the league to make the postseason.

I said it when the guy was first brought to the team, the flyers will fail, and badly, so long as he is on the roster. it does not matter what the rest of the roster is. give him 3.5 goals-for to work with, and the second round will only be possible if the other team collapses utterly. tweaking the offense or the coach or the system, or even the defense is so much twiddling of thumbs so long as he is wearing a flyers jersey.

so, yes, the entire roster could use work. sure. if October 2013 rolls around and he is part of it, though, there is literally no point. which is why I resist conceding any other point. you are right on all fronts, I know, and I apologize for acting like a dick about it, but...I just can't see any of it as relevant until that one guy is dealt with.

I'm not arguing about Bryzgalov or defending Bryzgalov.

You can continue to bash Bryzgalov. I've called him a statue. I've said he must be bought out. I was against the deal from the moment it was consummated.

And I'm not saying that the roster needs to be overhauled. I'm saying that they had a down year - a lot of sophomore slumps - and should be in good shape next season. They were three wins away from the playoffs this year - even with Bryzgalov.

Defense needs to be addressed. Timonen is almost certainly in his last season. There's precious little on the shelf after him. Hopefully they get some use from Lauridsen and Gustaffson.

The point isn't that the goalie sabotaged their season. The point is with just a *little* more scoring, they're in the playoffs.

[murraycraven]

@murraycraven

If he sends you a pm DON"T OPEN IT!!!!!!!

FC - I already opened it! Man o' man...

[murraycraven]

I'm not arguing about Bryzgalov or defending Bryzgalov.

You can continue to bash Bryzgalov. I've called him a statue. I've said he must be bought out. I was against the deal from the moment it was consummated.

And I'm not saying that the roster needs to be overhauled. I'm saying that they had a down year - a lot of sophomore slumps - and should be in good shape next season. They were three wins away from the playoffs this year - even with Bryzgalov.

Defense needs to be addressed. Timonen is almost certainly in his last season. There's precious little on the shelf after him. Hopefully they get some use from Lauridsen and Gustaffson.

The point isn't that the goalie sabotaged their season. The point is with just a *little* more scoring, they're in the playoffs.

rad, I completely agree with your assesment. Like it or not the goalie is always going to be the whipping post in Philly. We are not the only city that is this way. Before the season started I was posting how this Team was built on the base case scenario (similar to the Phils actually). We gave up scoring w/ JvR and Jagr and we hoped that the second year players would continue to grow but it did not happen as quickly as we wanted. Unfortunately, even at full health, this defense is rather ordinary IMO and would not get us to the promised land. I do see the point if we scored a few more that we would have made the playoffs. Although, I still see this Team as definitely flawed on the defensive side of the puck...

Bryz is an easy way to get rid of a serious cap hit and even a more serious distraction. No matter who is in net they are going to be seriously analyzed by the fanbase.

Edited May 20, 2013 by murraycraven

[radoran]

Bryz is an easy way to get rid of a serious cap hit and even a more serious distraction. No matter who is in net they are going to be seriously analyzed by the fanbase.

And he absolutely, positively must be bought out.

Having established this point, the discussion can move to the next level - what happens after Bryz is bought out.

And there is certainly work to do.

[flyercanuck]

@murraycraven

I warned you....and you can't "unsee" things.

[murraycraven]

@murraycraven

I warned you....and you can't "unsee" things.

My eyes are burning FC... my eyes are burning... Haha!

[murraycraven]

And he absolutely, positively must be bought out.

Having established this point, the discussion can move to the next level - what happens after Bryz is bought out.

And there is certainly work to do.

Rad... that is indeed the question. Is Mason the answer? Can he get his game back on track and be a #1? It is a difficult and risky move to put faith in Mason but he played well in his short, albeit very short, time here. To get another young guy like Bernier is going to cost you a lot in return and I would imagine that is going to cost the Flyers more scoring - Read and pick(s)? I am not sure what the cost would be but I know every team is going to ask about Read, Cooter and Schenn. I still would keep Schenn off limits in any trade discussion as I think he will be a very good player.

Whatever the backup plan may be it is going to be risky. I just am not sure how you fill that hole w/out trading away young talent. Homer put himself in this mess and it will be interesting to see how he tries to get out of it. With the salary cap going down and a few of our core players coming up on extentions I do not know how Homer is going to make this work.

[radoran]

Mason for the one year deal is a great move.

Bernier is always a potential option, but I would certainly look at St. Louis where Elliott and Halak will be UFA after next season. Both have track records as proven, effective starters in this league.

The defense, however, is the real question. There is no real second option after Timonen (Coburn has pretty much failed to live up to that role).