Step back from the ledge people

[delcofan]

Like many, I was shocked by the actions taken yesterday.  And like many, I am a little concerned about the direction of the team.

 

But, I still hold hope and there's things I think any Flyers fan should take comfort in:

 

1.  A changed needed to happen.  I've always questioned Lavi's system, and while I was happy when they hired him it became clear pretty quickly that his system had flaws and a number of teams new how overcome it.  (Devils games were brutal).  It's also very apparent that Lavi lost the locker room and was being tuned out by the players.

 

2.  Holmgren has made a lot of bold moves and for some of the bigger ones, the jury is still out.  Specifically the Richards and Carter trades.  Voracek and Couturier are a solid return for a guy who, to put it simply, is talented but got distracted easily (I'm trying to be nice).  And the same for Simmonds and Schenn for Richards.  The four players combined have more upside than what Richards and Carter offer.  (to be fair though, the Bryzgalov signing was a disaster and as well as giving up on Bob, and I think he overpayed for Giroux).  Also he's made some decent smaller moves (Read acquisition and signing etc,)

 

3.  I'm impressed with what I've heard from Berube and what I've read about him.  I get the sense he will be able to get more out of the players (since he is already highly respected) and the "system" needs to change no matter what.

 

4.  Say what you want about Snyder (personally I can't stand him) but the guy obviously cares and wants to win.  More importantly, he is willing to put the money behind that desire.  And I give him credit for his willingness to recognize the organization's mistakes and try to fix them.  Winning is more important than his ego and his ego is gigantic.

 

Bottom line is I think the team was going uninspired and going nowhere but has the talent to do something.  Let's see what Berube can do.

[doom88]

Agreed. No need for the mass hysteria.

[sarsippius]

4.  Say what you want about Snyder (personally I can't stand him) but the guy obviously cares and wants to win.  More importantly, he is willing to put the money behind that desire.  And I give him credit for his willingness to recognize the organization's mistakes and try to fix them.  Winning is more important than his ego and his ego is gigantic.

 

Well yeah, he wants to win and has always opened up the checkbook to try and do it. Fine. I have always given him credit for that, in a town where we had 20 years of Phillies ownership too cheap to spend a buck until they opened that new stadium, and in the context of many sports owners who are content to let their teams flounder in mediocrity as long they can turn a profit, it is great to have an owner who cares about winning. But I take issue with your assertion that winning is more important to him than his ego. I would posit the notion that his ego is the reason this franchise is the laughingstock of the NHL.

 

This is just the latest example of pure incompetence. If he really wants to win, he should back the hell off, he's about one called play to the bench short of being Al Davis at this point. 3 games in and NOW you have enough evidence the coach needs to be fired? And you're not going to convince me that was Homer's call. This is embarrassing. Bryz will be an embarrassment until 2024 or whenever it is they're paying him to suck ass for two years and go away. Any doubt Snider held Homer's feet to the fire and told him to get Bryz that fateful summer? The list goes on...... and on......He basically told everybody yesterday that the Flyers culture was about winning and he knows what he's doing. Sounded every bit as deluded as Jeff Lurie's famous "gold standard" speech.

 

I will always respect Snider for brining hockey to Philadelphia and all that goes with it. But he is killing this franchise. And it's been happening for longer than some posters here have been alive.

[Adamflyers]

I honestly don't think there is much in the way of mass hysteria or too many people standing on the ledge.  Besides a few who have claimed they are done with the team, most people were just letting off steam yesterday (Myself included) 

 

I personally was upset to see Lavi go so early in the season, but after having time to think about it, his days were numbered no matter what and I don't think he would have gotten these guys turned around before the axe fell.  So then there is the decision to hire Berube.  At first glance, it looks horrible, but upon hearing what people have to say about him as a coach, I am certainly willing to give him a fair chance. 

 

I'm not a Homer hater, but I am really getting sick of him being let off the hook for some of the major disasters that have happened on his watch, namely the Bryzaster and subsequent trading of Bob.  I would hope that Homer is now on the short leash that Lavi was cut loose from.  There have been good things that he has done, but I'm having a hard time getting past the Bryz/Bob debacle, especially after seeing other people taking the fall for where the team is right now.

[ruxpin]

Agreed. No need for the mass hysteria.

 

I'm not sure this is supposed to be an insult. Just an observation.

 

You just seem like the type of person that when your roof is leaking you simply put a bucket under it, get some instant potatoes, and have a party.

[delcofan]

There have been good things that he has done, but I'm having a hard time getting past the Bryz/Bob debacle, especially after seeing other people taking the fall for where the team is right now.

 

The Bryzgalov signing has 80 year old man stink all over it.  I have to believe Holmgren was told to lock up the best free agent goaltender available.  I think that's part of the reason he hasn't been or isn't being held accountable.

[ruxpin]

The Bryzgalov signing has 80 year old man stink all over it.  I have to believe Holmgren was told to lock up the best free agent goaltender available.  I think that's part of the reason he hasn't been or isn't being held accountable.

 

Do you think, by extension, that Holmgren probably shouldn't be (and maybe isn't being) held accountable for the Richards/Carter trades (and maybe even the Bob move) since they were pretty much necessitated by the Bryzgalov signing?

[delcofan]

Do you think, by extension, that Holmgren probably shouldn't be (and maybe isn't being) held accountable for the Richards/Carter trades (and maybe even the Bob move) since they were pretty much necessitated by the Bryzgalov signing?

 

I don't quite follow you.  If he was forced to make the moves because of Bryzgalov but ended up making decent trades I think he should get credit for the decent trades.  

[ruxpin]

I don't quite follow you.  If he was forced to make the moves because of Bryzgalov but ended up making decent trades I think he should get credit for the decent trades.  

 

If they turn out decent, by all means give him credit.

 

Maybe the verdict is still out on Richards/Carter, but my point was about his job security.  I'm saying if Snider would ever consider those trades a negative that he really can't shoulder too much of it on Holmgren since the Carter/Richards trades were almost a cap necessity due to the Bryz signing.  I wasn't talking about fan perspective since that clearly doesn't matter to this organIzation.

 

As for Bob, there is no way to make that a positive.  That was a crap deal all the way around.  But again, if we're going with the rationale that Snider forced the Bryz signing, then he can't blame his GM for moving out the other goalie.

[delcofan]

If they turn out decent, by all means give him credit.

 

Maybe the verdict is still out on Richards/Carter, but my point was about his job security.  I'm saying if Snider would ever consider those trades a negative that he really can't shoulder too much of it on Holmgren since the Carter/Richards trades were almost a cap necessity due to the Bryz signing.  I wasn't talking about fan perspective since that clearly doesn't matter to this organIzation.

 

As for Bob, there is no way to make that a positive.  That was a crap deal all the way around.  But again, if we're going with the rationale that Snider forced the Bryz signing, then he can't blame his GM for moving out the other goalie.

Gotcha and I agree.

[doom88]

I'm not sure this is supposed to be an insult. Just an observation.

You just seem like the type of person that when your roof is leaking you simply put a bucket under it, get some instant potatoes, and have a party.

The roof is something I can control. If I'm renting, call it in. If I own the place, I break out the ladder and see what I can do about it.

I cannot control the Flyers. I can only enjoy the high moments, and take the low in stride. I'm also only a fan since Lindros, so the bitterness hasn't set in - nor have I witnessed a Cup win. So the Flyers canned a coach who had it coming? Big whoop. I'm not sure Lavy deserved that chance to turn things around this season, but that's water under the bridge now.

And, instant potatoes suck. My wife makes some awesome seasoned fried potatoes though.

[FreakinFlyersFan]

Do you think, by extension, that Holmgren probably shouldn't be (and maybe isn't being) held accountable for the Richards/Carter trades (and maybe even the Bob move) since they were pretty much necessitated by the Bryzgalov signing

Don't get me started about losing Richie and Bob....makes me sooooo angry!

[ruxpin]

Don't get me started about losing Richie and Bob....makes me sooooo angry!

 

I have to state--because others here will call me on it--that I was very much in favor of moving Richie and Carter at the time.  I really had had enough of Richards' sulking and Carter's high and wide.

 

I think we got decent value back, but clearly the best players in the exchange went out.  But even this management crew insisted then and insists now that the trades weren't about the sulking or the off-ice stuff.  They insisted it was a "direction" thing and others have maintained it was a cap thing due to Bryz.

 

If either of those things are necessitating factors, then the moves were utterly stupid.   The "new direction" is clearly down, and the cap thing due to Bryz is simply idiotic.

 

Since it's widely accepted that Snider was directly responsible for the Bryz thing, then that just seals that he is a meddling fool that has no idea what he's doing.

[mojo1917]

Well yeah, he wants to win and has always opened up the checkbook to try and do it. Fine. I have always given him credit for that, in a town where we had 20 years of Phillies ownership too cheap to spend a buck until they opened that new stadium, and in the context of many sports owners who are content to let their teams flounder in mediocrity as long they can turn a profit, it is great to have an owner who cares about winning. But I take issue with your assertion that winning is more important to him than his ego. I would posit the notion that his ego is the reason this franchise is the laughingstock of the NHL.

 

This is just the latest example of pure incompetence. If he really wants to win, he should back the hell off, he's about one called play to the bench short of being Al Davis at this point. 3 games in and NOW you have enough evidence the coach needs to be fired? And you're not going to convince me that was Homer's call. This is embarrassing. Bryz will be an embarrassment until 2024 or whenever it is they're paying him to suck ass for two years and go away. Any doubt Snider held Homer's feet to the fire and told him to get Bryz that fateful summer? The list goes on...... and on......He basically told everybody yesterday that the Flyers culture was about winning and he knows what he's doing. Sounded every bit as deluded as Jeff Lurie's famous "gold standard" speech.

 

I will always respect Snider for brining hockey to Philadelphia and all that goes with it. But he is killing this franchise. And it's been happening for longer than some posters here have been alive.

this may be your finest post ever.

well said. ++ 

[Howie58]

Like many, I was shocked by the actions taken yesterday.  And like many, I am a little concerned about the direction of the team.

 

But, I still hold hope and there's things I think any Flyers fan should take comfort in:

 

1.  A changed needed to happen.  I've always questioned Lavi's system, and while I was happy when they hired him it became clear pretty quickly that his system had flaws and a number of teams new how overcome it.  (Devils games were brutal).  It's also very apparent that Lavi lost the locker room and was being tuned out by the players.

 

2.  Holmgren has made a lot of bold moves and for some of the bigger ones, the jury is still out.  Specifically the Richards and Carter trades.  Voracek and Couturier are a solid return for a guy who, to put it simply, is talented but got distracted easily (I'm trying to be nice).  And the same for Simmonds and Schenn for Richards.  The four players combined have more upside than what Richards and Carter offer.  (to be fair though, the Bryzgalov signing was a disaster and as well as giving up on Bob, and I think he overpayed for Giroux).  Also he's made some decent smaller moves (Read acquisition and signing etc,)

 

3.  I'm impressed with what I've heard from Berube and what I've read about him.  I get the sense he will be able to get more out of the players (since he is already highly respected) and the "system" needs to change no matter what.

 

4.  Say what you want about Snyder (personally I can't stand him) but the guy obviously cares and wants to win.  More importantly, he is willing to put the money behind that desire.  And I give him credit for his willingness to recognize the organization's mistakes and try to fix them.  Winning is more important than his ego and his ego is gigantic.

 

Bottom line is I think the team was going uninspired and going nowhere but has the talent to do something.  Let's see what Berube can do.

Delco:

 

There is much street wisdom in what you say.  The only "friendly amendments" I'd offer are: 1) Will the youngins be given time to develop before they are traded; and 2) What you are saying, in statistical jargon, is that Homer's deals may be high standard deviation--high risk, high return. We may get a good return for pucks + Leighton to get Mason. And I suspect Razor may not be too bad either. But those are relatively low risk. And if we had kept Bob.......OK, I know maybe that wasn't possible. But signing Bryz was not so hot. 

 

I agree we can't get too disappointed this early in the season. But I am not sure about long-term thinking with Homer-Snider. And in a salary cap era, they need to see the roster cost and return 3-4 years out. I really wonder if they see that.

 

Peace,

Howie

[ruxpin]

The roof is something I can control. If I'm renting, call it in. If I own the place, I break out the ladder and see what I can do about it.

I cannot control the Flyers. I can only enjoy the high moments, and take the low in stride. I'm also only a fan since Lindros, so the bitterness hasn't set in - nor have I witnessed a Cup win. So the Flyers canned a coach who had it coming? Big whoop. I'm not sure Lavy deserved that chance to turn things around this season, but that's water under the bridge now.

And, instant potatoes suck. My wife makes some awesome seasoned fried potatoes though.

 

LOL  I guess I was just saying you come across as an eternal optimist.  I don't share the outlook (wish I did), but I respect the hell out of it.

[doom88]

LOL I guess I was just saying you come across as an eternal optimist. I don't share the outlook (wish I did), but I respect the hell out of it.

That works for me. At the end of the day, it's all about (Lappy?) Let's Go Flyers!

[sarsippius]

@mojo1917

 

Thanks man, appreciate the kind words.

[murraycraven]

No ledge... No cliff... Only frustration IMO.