What's a "Journeyman?"

[Leach27]

Streit or Lecavalier would be a better captain that I am certain of. However I don't think I would go as far to say Streit is "much a journeyman" as he has only played for 3 nhl teams, habs, nyi and flyers. By definition "The journeyman is a player that travels from team to team throughout his career, never really finding a place that will keep him around for the long term".

 

For example Mike Sillinger would be considered a journeyman as he played for 12 nhl teams; New York Islanders, Nashville Predators, St. Louis Blues, Phoenix Coyotes, Columbus Blue Jackets, Ottawa Senators, Florida Panthers, Tampa Bay Lightning, Philadelphia Flyers, Vancouver Canucks, Mighty Ducks of Anaheim and Detroit Red Wings.

 

 

Leach27

Edited November 4, 2013 by radoran
split from another thread, Leach27 responding to me calling Streit "pretty much a journeyman"

[radoran]

Streit or Lecavalier would be a better captain that I am certain of. However I don't think I would go as far to say Streit is "much a journeyman" as he has only played for 3 nhl teams, habs, nyi and flyers. By definition "The journeyman is a player that travels from team to team throughout his career, never really finding a place that will keep him around for the long term".

 

For example Mike Sillinger would be considered a journeyman as he played for 12 nhl teams; New York Islanders, Nashville Predators, St. Louis Blues, Phoenix Coyotes, Columbus Blue Jackets, Ottawa Senators, Florida Panthers, Tampa Bay Lightning, Philadelphia Flyers, Vancouver Canucks, Mighty Ducks of Anaheim and Detroit Red Wings.

 

 

Leach27

 

The comparison between those two players is strained, at best.

 

Mike Sillinger has played for more teams than any other player. It's like comparing a productive 20-goal scorer to Wayne Gretzky.

 

Streit is in his eighth season and he's on his third team. And he just walked away from the team he was the captain for; a team that, indeed, did want to keep him around long term. Instead, he went on a little journey south.

 

But, given his contract amount, length and term as a 35+ yo coupled with his production so far this season, he may now have found one to keep him around "long term."

[JackStraw]

Streit is in his eighth season and he's on his third team. And he just walked away from the team he was the captain for; a team that, indeed, did want to keep him around long term. Instead, he went on a little journey south.

 

I think you just called Chris Pronger and Wayne Gretzky "journeymen".

[Leach27]

ok. well what about zalapski, ulf Samuelsson, satan, mathieu schneider, or brian boucher?? All journeymen by standard definition.

 

 

And he just walked away from the team he was the captain for; a team that, indeed, did want to keep him around long term. Instead, he went on a little journey south.

 

 

He didn't walk away, he was about to become a UFA. He fulfilled the 5 year contract he had signed with the NYI.

[radoran]

I think you just called Chris Pronger and Wayne Gretzky "journeymen".

 

Gretzky: 4 teams in 22 years. One 10-year stint. one eight-year stint. 

 

Pronger: 5 teams in 18 years, one nine-year stint. That said, I'd argue that people in Edmonton and possibly Anaheim might accept him as a "journeyman" but I'd characterize him more as a "hired gun" once he left the Blues.

 

Streit: 3 teams in 8 years, one three-year stint, one four-year*

 

What's your definition of "journeyman"? (one might also note the phrase "pretty much" in my original comment which was conveniently ignored by someone straining to make a point).

 

I'd say someone like a Ruslan Fedotenko or Vaclav Prospal might be better examples. Never more than four years in a row with the same org.

 

* playing seasons (missed whole 10-11 season)

 

ok. well what about zalapski, ulf Samuelsson, satan, mathieu schneider, or brian boucher?? All journeymen by standard definition.

 

Rafalski (zafalski?) played for two teams in his career. Samuelsson had seven seasons in Hartford, five in Pittsburgh and four with the rangers before adding two teams in a swan song at the end. Satan was in his sixth season with his second team when in his eighth season.

 

Boucher? Schenider? Good examples.

 

Third team in eight years? Verging on the edge of journeyman, pretty much, eh?

Edited November 4, 2013 by radoran
10-11 season

[blocker]

I thought  "journeyman" meant that a worker (or player), was capable, but not highly skilled.

[radoran]

I thought  "journeyman" meant that a worker (or player), was capable, but not highly skilled.

 

there is that perjorative. The traditional term is of a worker who is not yet a master.

 

I wasn't intending that perjorative, although I was obviously aware of it - more of the wandering among teams and in his first year here not necessarily being the best choice as a "leader." Streit (full disclosure: on my fantasy roster) is certainly an above-average player.

 

Which is another reason I split off the thread.

[Samifan]

Hal Gill, journeyman defenseman?

[Leach27]

I thought  "journeyman" meant that a worker (or player), was capable, but not highly skilled.

 

I'm sticking with this definition, as imo the # of teams they played for is a factor.

"the journeyman is a player that travels from team to team throughout his career, never really finding a place that will keep him around for the long term".

[radoran]

Hal Gill, journeyman defenseman?

 

Compare him to Samuelsson (above) 

 

 

 Samuelsson had seven seasons in Hartford, five in Pittsburgh and four with the rangers before adding two teams in a swan song at the end. Satan was in his sixth season with his second team when in his eighth season.

 

Gill played eight seasons with Boston and now is on his fifth team in eight years.

 

In some ways he is evidence of the effect that the RFA system can have on teams looking to keep players around and not have to pay too too much like Boston from  97-06...

[yave1964]

To me a journeyman, by my definition of the word is a player of average or slightly above average skills who bounces around, sometimes establishing himself with a club early and then bouncing around late.

With the Wings

  Mikael Samuelsson

  Big Bert

  Kyle Quincey

 

All three are on their second tour of duty with the Wings even,

 

  I do not think anyone who is a star, let alone a superstar, could be considered a journeyman.

 

GREAT Topic BTW!

Edited November 5, 2013 by yave1964

[blocker]

Hal Gill, journeyman defenseman?

 

I've seen Gill skate. 

 

Wherever that "journey" goes, it's going to take him awhile to get there.

[yave1964]

I've seen Gill skate. 

 

Wherever that "journey" goes, it's going to take him awhile to get there.

Now that is funny! How about a Johan Franzen one on one breakaway on Gill. You could time it with a sun dial

[ruxpin]

Streit or Lecavalier would be a better captain that I am certain of. However I don't think I would go as far to say Streit is "much a journeyman" as he has only played for 3 nhl teams, habs, nyi and flyers. By definition "The journeyman is a player that travels from team to team throughout his career, never really finding a place that will keep him around for the long term".

For example Mike Sillinger would be considered a journeyman as he played for 12 nhl teams; New York Islanders, Nashville Predators, St. Louis Blues, Phoenix Coyotes, Columbus Blue Jackets, Ottawa Senators, Florida Panthers, Tampa Bay Lightning, Philadelphia Flyers, Vancouver Canucks, Mighty Ducks of Anaheim and Detroit Red Wings.

Leach27

Here I thought this thread was going to be about Neal Schon or Janathan Cain.

To me, an additional ingredient is that they are traded rather than move due to free agency. Additionally, there is the ingredient of being average in skill. I don't see this term used for top line players no matter how often they move

Streit, for me, doesn't qualify. He's moved twice but was traded neither time.

Without looking at his moves, Prospal strikes me as a journeyman. Silllinger. Carle. Eminger. Asham.

I like this thread, though. I don't have a hard, fast, answer and it's a term I both hear and use all the time.

[JackStraw]

Gretzky: 4 teams in 22 years. One 10-year stint. one eight-year stint.

Pronger: 5 teams in 18 years, one nine-year stint. That said, I'd argue that people in Edmonton and possibly Anaheim might accept him as a "journeyman" but I'd characterize him more as a "hired gun" once he left the Blues.

Streit: 3 teams in 8 years, one three-year stint, one four-year*

What's your definition of "journeyman"? (one might also note the phrase "pretty much" in my original comment which was conveniently ignored by someone straining to make a point).

I'd say someone like a Ruslan Fedotenko or Vaclav Prospal might be better examples. Never more than four years in a row with the same org.

* playing seasons (missed whole 10-11 season)

Rafalski (zafalski?) played for two teams in his career. Samuelsson had seven seasons in Hartford, five in Pittsburgh and four with the rangers before adding two teams in a swan song at the end. Satan was in his sixth season with his second team when in his eighth season.

Boucher? Schenider? Good examples.

Third team in eight years? Verging on the edge of journeyman, pretty much, eh?

Journeymen are guys who are notable for bouncing around and nothing more. Adam Hall is a journeyman. Michael Leighton is a journeyman. Rory Fitzpatrick was a journeyman. Journeymen aren't desirable as UFAs and they don't get $4+ million contracts when they're 35 years old. Streit has been one of the better offensive d-men in the league for years now, he's no journeyman.

Edit: A stint or two in the AHL will always help your bona-fides as a journeyman.

Edited November 5, 2013 by JackStraw

[Leach27]

Here I thought this thread was going to be about Neal Schon or Janathan Cain.

To me, an additional ingredient is that they are traded rather than move due to free agency. Additionally, there is the ingredient of being average in skill. I don't see this term used for top line players no matter how often they move

Streit, for me, doesn't qualify. He's moved twice but was traded neither time.

Without looking at his moves, Prospal strikes me as a journeyman. Silllinger. Carle. Eminger. Asham.

I like this thread, though. I don't have a hard, fast, answer and it's a term I both hear and use all the time.

 

 

I agree. Streit doesn't qualify. The two times he was moved were because he was a UFA, he didn't walk away he signed a contract with a new nhl team as per his rights according the cba.

[yave1964]

@JackStraw

I disagree that journeymen are all the 13th forwards or 7th d-men. I think they are rolling stones, average or slightly above average. Prospal was a perfect example, so are guys like Nystrom in Nashville, Max Lapierre, a Clarke Macarthur type. These guys fill roles for a team until something better comes along. A lot of them play damn near forever.

  I feel the category you mentioned, 13th or even 14th forwards, third goalie, seventh d-men, the 'black aces' as it were are a completely different category.

[yave1964]

@JackStraw

I disagree that journeymen are all the 13th forwards or 7th d-men. I think they are rolling stones, average or slightly above average. Prospal was a perfect example, so are guys like Nystrom in Nashville, Max Lapierre, a Clarke Macarthur type. These guys fill roles for a team until something better comes along. A lot of them play damn near forever.

  I feel the category you mentioned, 13th or even 14th forwards, third goalie, seventh d-men, the 'black aces' as it were are a completely different category.

[Chicago Hawkie]

Ray Whitney and Michel Petit come to mind ...

[ruxpin]

@JackStraw

I disagree that journeymen are all the 13th forwards or 7th d-men. I think they are rolling stones, average or slightly above average. Prospal was a perfect example, so are guys like Nystrom in Nashville, Max Lapierre, a Clarke Macarthur type. These guys fill roles for a team until something better comes along. A lot of them play damn near forever.

I feel the category you mentioned, 13th or even 14th forwards, third goalie, seventh d-men, the 'black aces' as it were are a completely different category.

I think what you're saying would be my interpretation as well.

I think about them as something most teams can use and are quite serviceable until something else is needed or something newer comes along

[JackStraw]

@JackStraw

I disagree that journeymen are all the 13th forwards or 7th d-men. I think they are rolling stones, average or slightly above average. Prospal was a perfect example, so are guys like Nystrom in Nashville, Max Lapierre, a Clarke Macarthur type. These guys fill roles for a team until something better comes along. A lot of them play damn near forever.

  I feel the category you mentioned, 13th or even 14th forwards, third goalie, seventh d-men, the 'black aces' as it were are a completely different category.

 

I didn't mean to limit it to just those types. Prospal is actually another name that came to my mind. The sentence I bolded is a good way to describe them.

[radoran]

Journeymen are guys who are notable for bouncing around and nothing more. Adam Hall is a journeyman. Michael Leighton is a journeyman. Rory Fitzpatrick was a journeyman. Journeymen aren't desirable as UFAs and they don't get $4+ million contracts when they're 35 years old. Streit has been one of the better offensive d-men in the league for years now, he's no journeyman.

Edit: A stint or two in the AHL will always help your bona-fides as a journeyman.

 

I did make clear that I wasn't saying he isn't an effective player.

 

But to expect a guy who is coming onto the roster to be a "leader" simply because they were a two-year captain on the team they voluntarily abandoned is ridiculous. And in terms of being a "captain" or "leader" I would argue that Streit "pretty much"* is a journeyman.

 

Yes, I realize I am saying the same thing about Timonen wrt taking over for Smith - but that's the difference between a guy who wasn't 35+ and one who is. And the very different places the team was/is in. Timonen was an eight year player for Nashville - Streit's entire career. 

 

Timonen was brought in to be a foundational player for the Flyers, and he has been - as evidenced by Homer overpaying him this season to keep him. Streit was brought in to be icing on the cake.

 

That's the Genesis of this thread. Not the be-all and end-all of it, I hope.

 

 

* three years in Montreal, five on the Island (four playing), two years as a captain.

[mojo1917]

Maxim Talbot

[DaGreatGazoo]

Does Jagr fit this now?  

[Leach27]

I think Jagr would fit as he has been with so many teams, and lately one year contracts. Although I disagree that talbot is a journeyman.