Yet another Sean Couturier thread

[King Knut]

Not sure I understand what you're saying about annointing him the shutdown role.

He IS in that role. Anointed or not (what is there a ceremony and an animal sacrifice?)

He's out against the top lines... He's the shutdown guy.

I really must be missing something.

To imply this team falls apart without him is a huge overstatement of his abilities. I can recognize hisimprovement defensively, but like rad said on another thread, he's far from a lock at the shutdown center role. It is far too early to anoint him that yet.

[fanaticV3.0]

The only facts are that couturier had been unimpressive offensively thus far. Thus far. The second you start taking about what the future may or may not hold, you are leaving facts behind and moving into speculation. Realistic, cynical, or kumbaya, all just speculation. Not fact. You may want to learn the definition of the word before you throw it around so freely.

Also, what are you, 12?

 

My speculation of his future is based on facts. His offensive game has regressed.This is a fact. Until that changes, I will not consider him an offensive threat. That's not cynical, it's simply realistic.

[murraycraven]

Also, what are you, 12?

 

Let's not go overboard here aziz... I was thinking 9 or 10...

 

Cooter IS the shutdown center on this team already...  

[murraycraven]

My speculation of his future is based on facts. His offensive game has regressed.This is a fact. Until that changes, I will not consider him an offensive threat. That's not cynical, it's simply realistic.

 

 

Ok...  but you do realize he is, in fact, the shutdown center on this Team?  Right?

[fanaticV3.0]

Not sure I understand what you're saying about annointing him the shutdown role.

He IS in that role. Anointed or not (what is there a ceremony and an animal sacrifice?)

He's out against the top lines... He's the shutdown guy.

I really must be missing something.

 

 

You said if the team trades him and they go belly up in their own end, they are screwed. I replied that they would not likely be screwed by removing him from the line up. This team's failure or success right now is not dependent upon him.

[fanaticV3.0]

Ok...  but you do realize he is, in fact, the shutdown center on this Team?  Right?

 

I'm not sure where I said he wasn't.

[murraycraven]

I'm not sure where I said he wasn't.

 

 

"he's far from a lock at the shutdown center role."

[fanaticV3.0]

"he's far from a lock at the shutdown center role."

 

Again, I'm not sure where I said he wasn't playing that role. I said he wasn't a lock at it. That's not say he isn't doing it, just that nothing is set in stone yet. Rad said the same thing early in the thread.

[murraycraven]

I guess I was mis-reading your prior posts...  

[King Knut]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that the fate of the team rests with Courturier being on the ice.  
I simply meant if you trade him for a goal a game more offense and losing him results in 2 goals a game against, then you've just made winning a lot harder on yourself.

 

Your goals for can go up and that's good, but it's a balance.  By "screwed yourself" I mean you'd will have just made things tougher instead of easier for you.

 

You said if the team trades him and they go belly up in their own end, they are screwed. I replied that they would not likely be screwed by removing him from the line up. This team's failure or success right now is not dependent upon him.

[Bertmega]

[murraycraven]

 

Murray thinks you are spot-on Bert!  Spot-on...

Edited November 19, 2013 by murraycraven

[fanaticV3.0]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that the fate of the team rests with Courturier being on the ice.  

I simply meant if you trade him for a goal a game more offense and losing him results in 2 goals a game against, then you've just made winning a lot harder on yourself.

 

Your goals for can go up and that's good, but it's a balance.  By "screwed yourself" I mean you'd will have just made things tougher instead of easier for you.

 

I still don't agree with you. I don't think it's a given this team has a harder time winning without him in the line up. I don't think he's that valuable yet. I think he's playing good defensive hockey, however not so good that he's at a level the team can't survive without him. You can't assume they'd be giving up 2 more goals a game without him. That's a totally random number. Plus, we have no idea what we're theoretically trading him for, who replaces him, etc.

 

@murraycraven

 

No problem.

Edited November 19, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[King Knut]

Well yes, I chose a hypothetical set of numbers (but not random) that were essentially based on what he's done to Malkin and Crosby.

 

The real numbers would be fractions and I didn't dare to guesstimate.

 

But the logic of the argument is sound whether you like it or not and I never sad the team can't survive, I'm merely making the EXTREMELY valid point that if they don't replace him with more points than he shuts down instead of waiting until his adds the scoring back into his game, then they're just making it more difficult to win instead of making it easier.

 

Does that mean they fall apart?  I don't know.  Who knows?  I'm just talking numbers and suggesting there's more value to his role as shut down man than just the current lack of scoring suggests.

[The Quigster]

If anybody thinks Cooter's offensive game has regressed,what about Giroux,Hartnell,Simmonds,Read,Hello! One player who definitely would miss Cooter if he was traded is Malkin, the Kid definitely has his number,always a pleasure to watch. The Flyers are very hard to be enthused about this season,their like somebody waving a pendant in you face and saying "you are getting sleepy".

[doom88]

Couturier gets more ice time than all of them but Giroux. The only forwards who get more ice time a game than he does are Giroux and Read.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142PHISASALL&sort=avgTOIPerGame&viewName=summary

Wrong table. Look at his PK TOI, 2nd among Flyer forwards, 4th overall:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142PHISASALL&sort=shortHandedTimeOnIce&viewName=timeOnIce

[King Knut]

I hope everyone hating on coburn notices the guy has 15 more minutes of SH ice time than anyone else on the team.

He's a strong force for this team. People like to say he's out there for every goal... Odds are in his favor when he's jut always friggin' out there.

Wrong table. Look at his PK TOI, 2nd among Flyer forwards, 4th overall:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142PHISASALL&sort=shortHandedTimeOnIce&viewName=timeOnIce

[murraycraven]

I hope everyone hating on coburn notices the guy has 15 more minutes of SH ice time than anyone else on the team.

He's a strong force for this team. People like to say he's out there for every goal... Odds are in his favor when he's jut always friggin' out there.

KK... I agree and I am not the biggest Coburn fan. He is like a Carle IMO... You will miss him greatly when he is gone.

[aziz]

My speculation of his future is based on facts.

 

whatever.  people who think the moon landings happened on a sound stage base their speculation on facts.  it's still just speculation.  

 

your facts fail to take into account an entire host of things, primarily the nature of developing players.  how was martin st louis' offense when he was 20?  oh, right, he was 5 years away from being able to play in the NHL at all.

 

the kid is young, all sorts of things are possible.  the facts only speak to where he is right now, not where he'll go.  ANY attempt to say "XYZ" about his future is a guess, no matter what facts you might selectively bring to bear.

 

[jammer2]

@aziz  OK, you and many know I'm in favour of being very patient with kids, giving them ample time to develop and grow fully into their bodies....BUT..and I'm just playing devil's advocate here, following this line of logic, being extremely patient that is, how do you know when to cut the ties, when is enough, well...enough. A franchise potentially go through years of uninspired play only to find out they invested millions of dollars and a lot of years to find out when many fans thought from the start....that the kid just did not have "it". That is the sticky point to patience. Personally, I like to see a sense of urgency from players, a compete level that you can fall back on when all else fails, you know the kid is gonna outwork opponents while he is learning the ropes. I don't see a lot of urgency from Coots, on some nights....yes, but not consistently.

 

 A lack of urgency was why I was willing to give up on JVR, but I wanted more in return, cause we knew from the outstanding playoffs he had way back when he was super talented....Luke was not a fair return, but his lack of urgency made me want to deal him off. JVR was not the type of guy you wanted to "go to war with". He's turned a new Leaf, pardon the pun, but uninspired play makes me ill.

[aziz]

A franchise potentially go through years of uninspired play only to find out they invested millions of dollars and a lot of years to find out when many fans thought from the start....that the kid just did not have "it".

 

if there was a question as the whether he had "it" enough to stick around in the NHL or not, i'd agree.  that really isn't the question, though.  the guy belongs in this league and does an important job for the flyers right now.  that's reason enough to stick with him.  if he starts delivering 60+ point seasons, awesome, but so long as he has the stuff to play in the league and fill a role, i don't see any need to question beyond that.

[jammer2]

@aziz  Oh, I agree, was talking in general terms, not coots specifically on that point. There is no question that Coots belongs....agreed 100%. The only real question is, how good will he become?  That is where it gets sticky from a Philly perspective, cause his lack of production means they will never get full value for him, it's really best to sit back and be patient with this one, cause the chance of him becoming a star with another team is VERY real.

[ruxpin]

LOL Couturier scored. Let's keep bashing him so he gets a hat trick

[doom88]

LOL Couturier scored. Let's keep bashing him so he gets a hat trick

Before that, he shanked a good chance again. Two shanks in two games I think. He looks like he's heating up. Credit Berube?

[Claude Monet]

The kid is 20. He is being asked to fill a defensive roll and doing a great job going up against the top lines in the NHL. I am willing to be patient on his offensive game for a while.

When did the flyers hire back Hitch because there is a poster on this thread that is giving me "maker " flashbacks .... Ughhhh