Report: Brayden Schenn for Jake Gardiner Deal Being Discussed

[fanaticV3.0]

I think Couturier is capable of being a 2nd line center. Laughton's ceiling is projected to be 2nd/3rd liner.

I'm just not sure there's room on this team for Giroux, Lecavalier, Schenn, Laughton, and Couturier unless two of those guys move to wing. And that's entirely possible since, you're right, Schenn has been doing it already, and Vinny seemed ok with the idea.

But, if you're going to make a move that addresses an area of need - for example, a young puck moving defenseman with top pairing potential - I would rather include Couturier or Laughton over Schenn.

Schenn can become the sniper we don't have. I don't know that Coots or Laughton would ever fill that role even if they reach their potential. I think it's easier (and cheaper) to replace a 2nd/3rd line center than it is a top line sniper.

 

Definitely. Schenn is untouchable right now. He's showing progress and was when the team was at its worst.

 

If Couturier shows he's a capable 2nd line center, I have a much harder time with this decision, because I'm tempted to stack the top 6. But right now if he got me Subban or someone else young, I'd likely do it. If Laughton drew the same kind of interest, I wouldn't even think twice about doing that with the centers we have right now.

[King Knut]

Coots was just skating better (though granted much much slower), and seemed to be seeing the overall ice better and grasping where everyone on the ice was better.  In those games when no one was scoring, his defense was key in keeping them even close.  Ultimately he was just making better plays more consistently than almost anyone on the offense.  It wasn't leading to goals, and that was frustrating, but I wasn't going to single him out fr that at that point if Giroux and Jake weren't scoring either.  Obviously the lack of scoring was a team wide phenomenon earlier in the year.  Coots was shutting guys down left and right, but the outlets weren't there so instead of turning those blue line shut downs into transition games and some offense, it just turned into neutral zone chaos for a few seconds until the other guys regrouped and started back up the ice.

 

Coots just looked better to me.  Obviously Schenn was scoring the most before the points streak started, but that didn't mean he was playing great hockey all game.  Schenn was part of the offense that was scrambling all the time trying to manufacture points so depserately, but not really executing any system to make that happen with regularity.  At that point I'd have traded him to send a message as much as anything.... but in a perfect world, you'd want him to stick around and work through his game with the rest of the team.  It's not as if he was THE problem and getting rid of him alone would have solved anything. 

 

It's similar to why sending McGinn down to the AHL made sense to me too in spite of his goals.  Schenn is obviously a much better overall player, so that's where the comparison ends, but there's a difference between a guy who can make a goal or two happen and a guy who is part of the solution to winning games.  Schenn's now back at the place where he's doing both.  Hopefully last night is an indication that Coots is getting there too.  I sure hope so.

 

re: Bob, I'm not ragging on Homer for dishing Bob.  I'm one of the few people who can acknowledge (then and now) that it was necessary.  I will however rag on Homer for what he got in return... especially when we're talking about a prospective deal in which one young talent with potential is being traded for another young talent with Potential.

 

Let's face it.  Homer does not have a great track record.  He does better trading known commodities for young talent, and even then he's still about 50-50  (Matt Walker anyone?)

 

Schenn? Why? Why would you have been more willing to part with him before Couturier?



Can we let the Bob stuff go? You know, since he's kinda up-and-down? I understand last year and all but both before and since then, he's not been terribly impressive. Do we really miss this kid?

[JackStraw]

@jammer2 - Gardiner's name was tossed around a lot last year on hfboards as part of a Flyers-Leafs trade. I do like Gardiner and he would give the Flyers a dimension they really don't have, but I wouldn't trade Schenn for him. And with Morin and Hagg in the system I would hate to see Homer make a drastic move for a PMD right now.

Edited November 20, 2013 by JackStraw

[OH1FlyersFan]

Intriguing, but I also would pass.  Hold onto B. Schenn.  We need the scoring.  The concussion thing is what makes me most nervous.  Once you have one, the others come that much easier.

 

But get rid of Streit at all costs!  Hate that deal.  What if the team just moved and didn't tell him????  Ha.

[brelic]

The concussion thing is what makes me most nervous.  Once you have one, the others come that much easier.

Brayden had one of those too.

[OH1FlyersFan]

Brayden had one of those too.

Ah.  So it's a push.  I'd still take Brayden's offense over Gardiner's defense.....at this point.  And now I'm nervous about B. Schenn's brain.  Thanks, thanks a lot.  

[brelic]

Ah.  So it's a push.  I'd still take Brayden's offense over Gardiner's defense.....at this point.  And now I'm nervous about B. Schenn's brain.  Thanks, thanks a lot.  

If it makes you feel any better, Giroux had a nasty one too.

Oops, I keep doing that.

[fanaticV3.0]

Coots was just skating better (though granted much much slower), and seemed to be seeing the overall ice better and grasping where everyone on the ice was better.  In those games when no one was scoring, his defense was key in keeping them even close.  Ultimately he was just making better plays more consistently than almost anyone on the offense.  It wasn't leading to goals, and that was frustrating, but I wasn't going to single him out fr that at that point if Giroux and Jake weren't scoring either.  Obviously the lack of scoring was a team wide phenomenon earlier in the year.  Coots was shutting guys down left and right, but the outlets weren't there so instead of turning those blue line shut downs into transition games and some offense, it just turned into neutral zone chaos for a few seconds until the other guys regrouped and started back up the ice.

 

Coots just looked better to me.  Obviously Schenn was scoring the most before the points streak started, but that didn't mean he was playing great hockey all game.  Schenn was part of the offense that was scrambling all the time trying to manufacture points so depserately, but not really executing any system to make that happen with regularity.  At that point I'd have traded him to send a message as much as anything.... but in a perfect world, you'd want him to stick around and work through his game with the rest of the team.  It's not as if he was THE problem and getting rid of him alone would have solved anything. 

 

It's similar to why sending McGinn down to the AHL made sense to me too in spite of his goals.  Schenn is obviously a much better overall player, so that's where the comparison ends, but there's a difference between a guy who can make a goal or two happen and a guy who is part of the solution to winning games.  Schenn's now back at the place where he's doing both.  Hopefully last night is an indication that Coots is getting there too.  I sure hope so.

 

re: Bob, I'm not ragging on Homer for dishing Bob.  I'm one of the few people who can acknowledge (then and now) that it was necessary.  I will however rag on Homer for what he got in return... especially when we're talking about a prospective deal in which one young talent with potential is being traded for another young talent with Potential.

 

Let's face it.  Homer does not have a great track record.  He does better trading known commodities for young talent, and even then he's still about 50-50  (Matt Walker anyone?)

 

With all due respect, you're nuts. You seem like a cool easy-going guy, so I don't mean any disrespect to you as a person, but this is a better team with Schenn and McGinn than Couturier and whatever scrubs we have on the 4th line. I agree with you that I hope last night was the start of some more productive (offensive) play from Couturier, but to say Couturier is helping to win games more than other guys is really overstating his defensive play, which I agree has been good, but come on.

 

Got ya on the Bob thing.

 

For the most part, I'm ok with what he gets in return for a trade, he just commits too much time and money to them.

[Jam1986]

just say no! wait to see if we keep rolling nothing till after Christmas trade wise

[King Knut]

Thanks, I appreciate it...

 

-Well first of all, their record would strongly seem to suggest otherwise.

-Second of all, if Coots was a straight up 4th liner as you assert he wouldn't be totalling almost 19 minutes of ice time per game.

-Third of all, if he was that much worse than Schenn he wouldn't be logging almost 3 full minutes of ice time MORE than Schenn per game.

-Fourth of all, Couturier is a +2 (playing against the top lines of the opposition every night) and Schenn is a -2 playing against... well not the top lines.

-Fifth of all, if McGinn was so much better than Couturier, maybe he wouldn't be playing in the AHL right now.

-Sixth of all, Brayden has 8 more points than Couturier.  That's a lot right now.  That's good... but it makes his -2 seem all the more distressing... but I will add to this the conceit that his two way game is improving... and hopefully Couturier's is too... each one needed to work on the "other way".

 

Sorry.  I know he just scored his first goal last night, but Sean C. is a pretty damn key component to this team right now.  

 

Right now, I want them both...  why is that something you need to argue with when the team is actually winning games and playing well?

 

I think Homer gets good return about 50% of the time on trades for established properties.

He got virtually nothing for Bob because he was over a barrel and the Jackets knew it.  My Jury is still out on Luke Schenn, but considering how much less ice time Luke gets than the rest of the Defensemen and the fact that JVR is outscoring anyone on the Flyers right now, I'm not feeling great... but I'll give it more time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but this is a better team with Schenn and McGinn than Couturier and whatever scrubs we have on the 4th line.

[jammer2]

@King Knut  I think Luke Schenn is basically a finished product...what you see is what you get. Literally no offensive upside, really slow first step, below average once he gets going, and a physical presence in his own end, but does get caught out of position to make the big hit. His positional play may improve, but everything else is pretty well cemented in. JVR on the other hand, is still learning the game, with more upside to produce points, but he will never have that sense of urgency to defend in his own end or gain puck possession.

[Flyingswede]

Gustafsson? anyone? Yes he have not been as good as last year but so havent our captian either. I see a PMD in him and now if the team is coming on feet we will see more of him. I think, its not easy being a PMD on a struggling team. Defense is all that counts then. Keep Schenn and have faith in Gustafsson.

[jammer2]

@Flyingswede  I would love to see Gus get a legit shot at running the power play. I think he has a lot of room to grow, but the ice time has to increase, as well as the pp time. It would be a real good idea to see what we *really* have before trying to fill holes from outside the org....I agree 100%. He shows flashes of brilliance, enough to make me want to see more in different situations.

[Flyingswede]

I agree. I also thinks that becouse he is young he gets nervous when players around him holds their sticks tight, so does he. This season I have seen him doing mistakes I have never seen before, not even back in Sweden. As long as the team gets better he will also.  

[FlyersFan4Life]

@Flyingswede  I would love to see Gus get a legit shot at running the power play. I think he has a lot of room to grow, but the ice time has to increase, as well as the pp time. It would be a real good idea to see what we *really* have before trying to fill holes from outside the org....I agree 100%. He shows flashes of brilliance, enough to make me want to see more in different situations.

agree guss is the only d man with wheels on the team he has great upside he needs to be given more chances and responsibility

[jammer2]

agree guss is the only d man with wheels on the team he has great upside he needs to be given more chances and responsibility

 

 

 If we would have given Gus more minutes and responsibility last year, we might have been spared the Streit contract. Impossible to see what the kid can do if you don't put him in the position of pp qb to see what he can do. So much like the Flyers, to not give a kid a chance...and then go overpay for some high priced vet on the downward slope of his career....unreal!!

[doom88]

If we would have given Gus more minutes and responsibility last year, we might have been spared the Streit contract. Impossible to see what the kid can do if you don't put him in the position of pp qb to see what he can do. So much like the Flyers, to not give a kid a chance...and then go overpay for some high priced vet on the downward slope of his career....unreal!!

Didn't Gus start leading the team in TOI towards the end of last season when all the D were hurt?

[jammer2]

@doom88  Ahhh, yeah....forgot about all the injuries leading to more playing time for Gus. He did look good at the end of last year, think he was responding to the increased minutes. It's a shame injuries were the only way to get him some more time. A bit of patience, and this Mark Streit deal would not have been necessary. Sometimes you have to trust the youth you develop and project them into a bigger role, that's how a lot of good teams manage the cap. I'm so tired of going out and trying to buy the way to the cup with overpriced vets, it was old 10 years ago, now it's just foolish.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Hey what happened to all the kimmo bashing? Now streit is our whipping boy. Lol. Rightfully so though. I want the flyers to win so bad , but, at the same time it want them to suck so they can just unload both at the deadline for a geo metro or something.

[doom88]

@jammer2 I think Streit and Gill were overreactions to the potential of so many injuries again.

[Bertmega]

Couturier has no value to this team? Next I am going start reading how a faceoff specialist is equivalent to a long snapper in football.    

[JackStraw]

@doom88  Ahhh, yeah....forgot about all the injuries leading to more playing time for Gus. He did look good at the end of last year, think he was responding to the increased minutes. It's a shame injuries were the only way to get him some more time. A bit of patience, and this Mark Streit deal would not have been necessary. Sometimes you have to trust the youth you develop and project them into a bigger role, that's how a lot of good teams manage the cap. I'm so tired of going out and trying to buy the way to the cup with overpriced vets, it was old 10 years ago, now it's just foolish.

I like Gus and think he will be a good offensive defenseman, but realistically he was pretty bad at the beginning of last season. Really seemed to struggle. He was a lot better when they called him up towards the end of the year and I don't know if keeping him up the whole season would have been wise. He's still a bit inconsistent and I'm fine with the team bringing him along slowly.

Streit was a move they had to make imo. Every team needs a few vets here and there and other than Timo the d-corps was sorely lacking in puck handling skills. I mean like, God-awful.

[murraycraven]

@Flyingswede  I would love to see Gus get a legit shot at running the power play. I think he has a lot of room to grow, but the ice time has to increase, as well as the pp time. It would be a real good idea to see what we *really* have before trying to fill holes from outside the org....I agree 100%. He shows flashes of brilliance, enough to make me want to see more in different situations.

 

 

Jammer... I think the PP is too high of a ceiling for Gus.  I like his skill set but do not see him more than a 4-6 defensman.  I much rather have Streit and Kimmo running the PP.   I like Gus but I am not as high on him as a lot of other people around here.

Edited November 21, 2013 by murraycraven

[JackStraw]

Jammer... I think the PP is too high of a ceiling for Gus.  I like his skill set but do not see him more than a 4-6 defensman.  I much rather have Streit and Kimmo running the PP.   I like Gus but I am not as high on him as a lot of other people around here.

I think his ceiling is 2nd pair, and maybe 2nd unit PP.

[fanaticV3.0]

Thanks, I appreciate it...

 

-Well first of all, their record would strongly seem to suggest otherwise.

-Second of all, if Coots was a straight up 4th liner as you assert he wouldn't be totalling almost 19 minutes of ice time per game.

-Third of all, if he was that much worse than Schenn he wouldn't be logging almost 3 full minutes of ice time MORE than Schenn per game.

-Fourth of all, Couturier is a +2 (playing against the top lines of the opposition every night) and Schenn is a -2 playing against... well not the top lines.

-Fifth of all, if McGinn was so much better than Couturier, maybe he wouldn't be playing in the AHL right now.

-Sixth of all, Brayden has 8 more points than Couturier.  That's a lot right now.  That's good... but it makes his -2 seem all the more distressing... but I will add to this the conceit that his two way game is improving... and hopefully Couturier's is too... each one needed to work on the "other way".

 

Sorry.  I know he just scored his first goal last night, but Sean C. is a pretty damn key component to this team right now.  

 

Right now, I want them both...  why is that something you need to argue with when the team is actually winning games and playing well?

 

I think Homer gets good return about 50% of the time on trades for established properties.

He got virtually nothing for Bob because he was over a barrel and the Jackets knew it.  My Jury is still out on Luke Schenn, but considering how much less ice time Luke gets than the rest of the Defensemen and the fact that JVR is outscoring anyone on the Flyers right now, I'm not feeling great... but I'll give it more time.

 

I realize he's playing good defense, but you drastically overstate his value to the team when you say you'd move Schenn over him. Let's say you do this "rumored" trade. Schenn for Gardiner. Are you really going to try and say they are a better team with Couturier and Gardiner vs Schenn and Gardiner? That is your opinion?

 

I'm not talking about McGinn vs Couturier. I didn't say you should give Couturier's roster spot to McGinn. I'm talking about McGinn vs Raffl, Rosehill, Rinaldo, or the other scrubs they've been playing on the fourth who have brought pretty much nothing to the table. He's barely played, but in both short stints this yer and last McGinn has showed more than anyone who has played on our 4th line this year.

 

Ok, that's fine, but you keep talking about Couturier, and guess who traded for the pick that turned into him? The return for JVR might suck, it might for Bob too, but I don't even know who those picks turned into. But the return for Richards and Carter was pretty good, no? The Mason trade looks genius. I know they are FA signings and not trades involving youth, but Emery and VLC have both played well for us.