I really hate Luke Schenn

[Spinorama]

what are you talking about!!!??? Luke has scored more goals than all of our defense put together. Sure.. sure.. they were for the other team... but... there's untapped scoring potential there!!

 

sometimes all you have to do is put the puck on net and good things, uh er.... 

[mojo1917]

@radoran

I was a card carrying JVR apologist .

I didn't hate the trade but I wasn't wild about it either...seems like there should have been a center to trade instead of a winger though.

Water under the bridge at this point , I still think a kid that's voluntarilly taking extra skating in season so he can be a better player is talent willing the kind of kid i would want on my team.

[radoran]

JVR was "on pace" for 30 last season (not his fault the season was shortened) - 18 in 48. (30.75)

 

I use the term because this season he is "on pace" for 30 again. (see below)

 

Barring injury - as with any player - he should hit 30 on a fairly regular basis.

 

And this is his best year and he STILL DOESN'T PROJECT TO A 30 GOAL SCORER this year!!!!

 

Sorry didn't mean to yell...and he'll disappear the closer they get to the REAL season....

 

True. 29.435. By .064 we don't round up. Touche.

 

He was "on pace" before today's game - which was when the comment was made.

 

That said, barring injury, he'll hit 30.

 

JVR may "disappear" (we'll see) but we'll still have Luke Schenn. So instead of a 29-goal scorer - to use your estimate - we have a fairly middling, still developing at 24, unremarkable defenceman.

 

Winning!

[radoran]

@radoran

I was a card carrying JVR apologist .

I didn't hate the trade but I wasn't wild about it either...seems like there should have been a center to trade instead of a winger though.

Water under the bridge at this point , I still think a kid that's voluntarilly taking extra skating in season so he can be a better player is talent willing the kind of kid i would want on my team.

 

I've never actually said that I "don't want" Luke Schenn. I've essentially said I'd rather still have JVR providing the Raffl role on Giroux's wing (or, preferably, on VLC's wing with Giroux on the other side). 

 

Where would JVR be in those situations if he's got "29" in Tronno?

 

And, of course, that it was a horrible, no good, very bad trade. One of several horrible, no good, very bad moves by the General Manager.

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

 

I doubt Holmgren would have traded JVR if he'd gone to the net like he does in Toronto. He certainly wouldn't have traded the "Boston series" JVR. (Then again this is the same gm who signed Bryz to a lifetime contract,, traded Vezina Bob, then acquired Mason for Leighton all in just over a year) But I understood trading "I don't want to get involved" JVR not that I wanted to. He had Alexander Daigle written all over him. God-given talent and a can't be bothered attitude. JVR could be scoring 35-45 a year playing with Giroux...if he wanted to.

[radoran]

@radoran

 

I doubt Holmgren would have traded JVR if he'd gone to the net like he does in Toronto. He certainly wouldn't have traded the "Boston series" JVR. (Then again this is the same gm who signed Bryz to a lifetime contract,, traded Vezina Bob, then acquired Mason for Leighton all in just over a year) But I understood trading "I don't want to get involved" JVR not that I wanted to. He had Alexander Daigle written all over him. God-given talent and a can't be bothered attitude. JVR could be scoring 35-45 a year playing with Giroux...if he wanted to.

 

So we should naturally assume that the 22-year-old third-year 20-goal scorer had plateaued and wouldn't continue to improve while the 24-year-old, six year vet needs "patience."

 

The whole JVR wasn't committed and didn't want to play mantra strikes me as obvious sour grapes.

 

And flies directly in the face of many of the same people who are preaching that "patience" should be the order of the day.

[flyercanuck]

I never wanted JVR traded. I was pissed all we got was Schenn. I thought there definitely should have been another piece coming our way if the deal had to be made. But JVR showed how good he could be with effort, then rarely brought any which (I guess) led to him being dealt.

 

Can you honestly say you thought JVR gave full effort on many occasions? Cause I just can't. And I saw that lack of effort out of him in the few games I saw of UNH, his world juniors, and his time in Philly. Luke Schenn doesn't have a lack of effort....he has a lack of talent.

[King Knut]

I'll give Schenn room to improve, but there's much that needs to be done.

I remember Matt carle, his first year here I was so upset. I hated him. He was terrible made nothing but boneheaded plays.

Losing him a few years later pissed me off to no end.

Nothing would surprise me with Luke.

And while I'd like to have 30 goals from JVR, and I don't think I'd have made that trade myself, we have to keep in mind that you can really only skate 3 lines of scoring talent forwards. At this point, the flyers can't even skate all the talented they have in the system and sticking them on the checking line is a detriment to their progress as scores.

JVR was mismanaged. jagr and carle should have never been let go.

You keep carle you don't have to blow JVR on a handful of magic beans like Luke. Now I'm left just hoping we get more beanstalk than gas out if those beans.

he's young , hits and works hard to try to improve.

oh did i say he's young ?

yes let's bitch and moan about him, he's a the guy on the blue line that can actually get better and wants to... Grossmann Coburn and Striet are finished products at this point , Timmonen is at the end of a nice career, Mezaros needs psychiatric help to overcome his fear of his body breaking .

I'd rather see what's up with him, let him develop, because as flyers fans we're so patient than dick around with mezaros and Striet any more.

the whole team save for mason was outclassed last night.

so weird to type about a flyers goalie stealing a point.

[King Knut]

Defense is far more difficult for youg players to get the hang of at the NHL level.

Once in a while you get one that can do it well early, but inevitably he backslides and has a mediocre or bad year after that before he gets good again.

Then there's Shea Weber.

Regardless, Luke needs to keep developing.

That said, Luke is "developing" on borrowed time at this point.

So we should naturally assume that the 22-year-old third-year 20-goal scorer had plateaued and wouldn't continue to improve while the 24-year-old, six year vet needs "patience."

The whole JVR wasn't committed and didn't want to play mantra strikes me as obvious sour grapes.

And flies directly in the face of many of the same people who are preaching that "patience" should be the order of the day.

[radoran]

Defense is far more difficult for youg players to get the hang of at the NHL level.

 

From earlier in this very thread

 

I'm perfectly OK with giving Schenn more time - he could be a nice Denis Seidenberg type in his late 20s. Defensemen can take more time to develop and often aren't the player they will be until their mid-20s.

 

That said, Schenn is 24 and is in his sixth full season in the NHL. How much more time does he get?

 

And JVR - six months older than Schenn and traded after his third season - is rapidly showing he's the 30-goal scorer he was drafted to be.

 

You know how many teams would take JVR over Couturier or Brayden or Voracek, for that matter? All of them. And there would likely be some that would take him over Giroux at this point.

 

And you could never get a Couturier or Brayden or Voracek straight up for Luke.

 

Horrible, no good, very bad trade. And getting worse.

 

Point being, I'm perfectly fine with giving youth time to develop. It's the Flyers who have the problem with it.

[radoran]

I never wanted JVR traded. I was pissed all we got was Schenn. I thought there definitely should have been another piece coming our way if the deal had to be made. But JVR showed how good he could be with effort, then rarely brought any which (I guess) led to him being dealt.

 

Can you honestly say you thought JVR gave full effort on many occasions? Cause I just can't. And I saw that lack of effort out of him in the few games I saw of UNH, his world juniors, and his time in Philly. Luke Schenn doesn't have a lack of effort....he has a lack of talent.

I think there are lots of times that 22-year-olds look "unmotivated". That's allegedly why teams have coaches and trainers - to motivate them. Do the Leafs just have that much more ability to motivate? 'cause I don't believe that. And JVR already had his six year, $25M contract in hand.

 

JVR scored 20 in his second season. "Actually" scored 21, too. Then next season he was on pace to, again, hit 20 goals but was injured.

 

Then he was traded.

 

I can honestly say that his performance in the Boston series alone would have encouraged me to keep the player to see what he would become - certainly not deal him for a guy who also had the "unmotivated" tag on him in Tronno but never showed any of the flashes that JVR did.

 

Points here:

 

1) horrible, no-good, very bad trade - how anyone can argue this point is beyond me

2) Schenn is a fairly unremarkable, serviceable defenceman

3) Schenn could improve marginally in the near future, will likely have a long career

4) JVR was "on pace" for 30 last year and is "on pace" for 29 this year.

[flyerrod]

@radoran

You would honestly prefer JVR's effort night in and night out over Raffl's? Really? Raffl actually plays defense....JVR, not so much. JVR's injuries when he was a Flyer have skewed a lot of people's opinions about his play/effort. Frankly, I was expecting a more seasoned Luke Schenn to help on defense....he has most certainly not been Grossmann or Coburn level but he is definitely  miles better than Gervais/Lilja/Kubina were. The Flyers needed a d-man way worse than they needed a part time winger....

[King Knut]

Ha ha. I agree with most of that except the thing about Coots and Giroux.

Offer Toronto either for JVR straight up and just see if they turn it down. Ha ha.

But everything else is in line with my thinking. D men take time to develop (I was pissed I see slide beef go too) but its time we started seeing more from Schenn. He's pissing us off. And seeing JVR do we'll shoul be pissing Schenn off even more.

From earlier in this very thread

[flyercanuck]

Don't disagree with anything you said rad

[radoran]

@radoran

You would honestly prefer JVR's effort night in and night out over Raffl's? Really? Raffl actually plays defense....JVR, not so much. JVR's injuries when he was a Flyer have skewed a lot of people's opinions about his play/effort. Frankly, I was expecting a more seasoned Luke Schenn to help on defense....he has most certainly not been Grossmann or Coburn level but he is definitely  miles better than Gervais/Lilja/Kubina were. The Flyers needed a d-man way worse than they needed a part time winger....

 

So, this would be the "patience" this thread has mentioned about treating a young player?

 

If a "part time" winger can contribute 20 goals a season, what could a properly motivated player do?

 

And if we have to have "patience" with a six-year veteran, 24-year-old, why not have it with a third-year, 23-year-old?

 

Raffl doesn't even enter the discussion. I would have preferred not to deal JVR for a "disappointing, unmotivated" defenceman who is still "disappointing" and seemingly had motivation issues.

[flyerrod]

If a "part time" winger can contribute 20 goals a season, what could a properly motivated player do? Played 75/78/43 games in full seasons with the Flyers....



And if we have to have "patience" with a six-year veteran, 24-year-old, why not have it with a third-year, 23-year-old? Not giving Schenn a pass, just saying the Flyers actually improved their defense when they acquired him.

[radoran]

@flyerrod

 

Not sure what your point is about his games played. He missed 7 and 4 games in two seasons - hardly "part time" - and then had one major injury.

 

Was Giroux "part time" in 11-12 when he "only" played in 77 games? Of course not. Couturier also played 77 that year - part time?

 

For that matter, in 10-11 the Flyers GAA was 2.60, in 11-12 it went up to 2.7. With the "improved" defense with Schenn it went up to 2.87. This year it's still at 2.66 - and I think we can all agree it is Mason (not the defense) that is the difference, can we not? Even then, they still aren't at the 2.60 from 10-11.

 

Even taking out his -12 as a rookie, he's a career -14 and is -6 with the Flyers this season (-3 overall).

 

The point here: do you honestly think that it was a good trade - "improved defense" or not?

[murraycraven]

So, this would be the "patience" this thread has mentioned about treating a young player?

 

If a "part time" winger can contribute 20 goals a season, what could a properly motivated player do?

 

And if we have to have "patience" with a six-year veteran, 24-year-old, why not have it with a third-year, 23-year-old?

 

Raffl doesn't even enter the discussion. I would have preferred not to deal JVR for a "disappointing, unmotivated" defenceman who is still "disappointing" and seemingly had motivation issues.

 

 

Perfectly said Rad... pretty much agree w/ evey post ont his subject.

[murraycraven]

I actually thought this trade (at the time and for the defensive needs of the Flyers) was not terrible.   Always liked JvR but we needed defensive help at the time... With that being said I don't get how anyone can make the claim, as it stands today, that it was a good trade.   This trade was pretty bad IMO but hindisght it 20/20.   I would much rather have JvR playing wing alongside G and have Lauridsen playing limited minutes than L Schenn as a 3/4. 

[flyerrod]

@radoran

 

JVR=The Tin Man .....NO HEART. This he showed for 90% of his games as a Flyer. Part time was more in reference  to his taking plays off when he was on the ice but I copied the games played due to the 1/2 season missed (even if it was due to a major injury).. He was given 2 1/2 seasons to change that and the only thing he was consistent at was being mediocre. Did the Flyers get fair value for Mr. Mediocre? Probably not but JVR was not going to be missed at the time he was traded AND they did need defensive help. Schenn still has potential....even though he is currently keeping it hidden....

[EightyEight]

I know that JVR only played 7 games for the Phantoms and I was in attendance for a game he played in Norfolk vs. Admirals.  I can't say about the other 6 games but he was awful and look totally uninterested in Norfolk.  I was not impressed with him at all especially being the 2nd overall pick in the draft.  

 

I also feel that JVR wasn't used properly with the Flyers.  Whether that figured into his nonchalant attitude I don't know but I could see how the Flyers gave up on him.   My only complaint about the trade is we should have insisted on more from Toronto. 

[OccamsRazor]

That said, barring injury, he'll hit 30.

 

 

Eventually....maybe the same year Schenn win the Norris..so hold type get your popcorn ready.

[OccamsRazor]

 I was not impressed with him at all especially being the 2nd overall pick in the draft

 

But he will be better than the infamous David Legwand who maybe the biggest under the radar 2nd pick ever....hell he is still playing and you never ever hear about him.

Edited January 2, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[radoran]

@radoran

 

JVR=The Tin Man .....NO HEART. This he showed for 90% of his games as a Flyer. Part time was more in reference  to his taking plays off when he was on the ice but I copied the games played due to the 1/2 season missed (even if it was due to a major injury).. He was given 2 1/2 seasons to change that and the only thing he was consistent at was being mediocre. Did the Flyers get fair value for Mr. Mediocre? Probably not but JVR was not going to be missed at the time he was traded AND they did need defensive help. Schenn still has potential....even though he is currently keeping it hidden....

 

Again, I just see that as sour grapes. We can agree to differ.

[radoran]

Eventually....maybe the same year Schenn win the Norris..so hold type get your popcorn ready.

 

He's on pace for 29(.45), was on pace for 30 last year. Yes, he still needs to get there, but he's clearly closer to 30 than Schenn will ever be to the Norris.

 

Unless Schenn, like, has a picture taken with it at the HHOF or something...

 

Clearly the US National Team sees something you don't. Bobby Ryan will be watching the Olympics from the couch, just like Schenn.