Braydenn Schenn to 4th line

[J0e Th0rnton]

He has a career high in goals, assists, and points this year.

Not terribly surprising given this is the first season he has played more than 54 games. His points per game pace is no better than it was last season and he had not earned more icetime by improving.

 

For a guy depicted as a sure thing first line talent in the draft, I expect more from him in development at age 22 going on 23 than a 41 to 45 point season. Especially since he gets Powerplay time and no PK time. Generally, forwards are having their best years around age 22 to 28.

Edited April 7, 2014 by J0e Th0rnton

[flyercanuck]

@J0e Th0rnton

 

 Joe Pavelski at 22          19 g 22 a (your teams leading scorer this year)

 

 Joe Thornton at 22         22 g 46 a )your teams 2nd leading scorer...put up 33 more points at 23)

 

 Patrick Marleau at 22      21g 23 a (3rd leading scorer)

 

 Logan Couture at 22       32 g 24 a (4th)

 

 Brent Burns at 22            7 g 18 a (5th, grew up right here in Barrie, his numbers today are similiar to Schenns, and Burns is a good player...and HUGE)

[canoli]

For me it's not about the numbers or comparing him to players past or present. It's seeing how involved he is one night and completely AWOL the next. He's work ethic is like JVR's on steroids. Apparently it hasn't gone unnoticed by the coaches. Couldn't ask for a better response than last night. Now all he has to do is keep it going.

[radoran]

Not terribly surprising given this is the first season he has played more than 54 games. His points per game pace is no better than it was last season and he had not earned more icetime by improving.

 

For a guy depicted as a sure thing first line talent in the draft, I expect more from him in development at age 22 going on 23 than a 41 to 45 point season. Especially since he gets Powerplay time and no PK time. Generally, forwards are having their best years around age 22 to 28.

 

One way to look at it is that this is his first "full season" - he played 54, 47 and now 78 games.

 

20 goals is a nice milepost, but you'd like to see more As, especially from a center. The caveat here is that he hasn't been playing center for long stretches of this seasonand his career. Just like VLC won't reach his numbers playing wing instead of C, Schenn's not going to be as productive on the wing.

 

If you look at his draft class, the four players ahead of him have each played over 320 games.

 

Of forwards:

Tavares: .38 goals per game

Duchene: .31 goals per game

E. Kane: .30 goals per game

Schenn: .21 goals per game

(also Victor Hedman)

 

Tavares, Duchene and Kane have been in "producing" roles for each of their squads for the past few seasons. Schenn was dealing with a (let's face it) cheap LA team that also had the depth down the middle to not "need" him early. Likewise in Philadelphia, rather than use him as the "second line center" they targeted him as, they've been using him as "insert forward here."

 

Only two players drafted after Schenn in the first round have more goals and points than he does (40 in 188): Kadri (46 in 174 playing significant time between JVR and Kessel) and Marcus Johansson (41 in 260).

 

FWIW, The Flyers had no 1/2 picks that season and the only picks that have played at all for them from 2009 were Wellwood and Lauridsen.

 

It's worth being concerned about Schenn, but not overly concerned. The main concern I have is whether he can be the player he was projected to be if yo-yo'd back and forth between wing and center.

[flyercanuck]

@canoli

 

 I just think everyones different when it comes to figuring out how to play in the NHL. Some guys get it when they're 18/19, but those are few and far between. Most seem to find their way at 23/24 for forwards.

[caluso]

@caluso  I don't get the criticism. The only part I agree with is he disappears for long stretches. I see a 22 year old kid who is approaching 20 goals (got his 19th tonight) and for the past few years he has averaged a point every 2 games. Not overwhelming stats by any means, but he *is* progressing. Not all these kids progress at the same speed, some actually are late bloomers. I believe Braydon falls into that category. Having said all that, next year truly is a put up or shut up year for B.Schenn. I believe he will respond with a 30 goal year, and there will be 5 more 30 goal seasons to follow. You're entitled to your opinion, I just think it's wrong in that particular case.

Aziz and I had a nice argument earlier in the year and I was curious to see how this year panned out for B Schenn. I was really hoping that he would blossom this year.

 

Sadly, in my opinion, he hasn't progressed, despite his 20 goals.  He is our second line center and is entrusted with some power play responsibility. 20 goals is nice, but, as I pointed out, his overall play, puts him at 132 overall in scoring. It's hard to get excited by those numbers.

 

I really think that the team would be very dynamic if VLC centered line 2, while Schenn was dropped to the 4th line.

 

Just my opinion

[brelic]

Sadly, in my opinion, he hasn't progressed, despite his 20 goals.  He is our second line center and is entrusted with some power play responsibility. 20 goals is nice, but, as I pointed out, his overall play, puts him at 132 overall in scoring. It's hard to get excited by those numbers.

 

It seems pretty clear that Schenn did not meet your expectations.

 

What were your expectations for Schenn this year? How many goals? How many points?

 

What do you propose we do with Schenn?

[ruxpin]

Leave VLC at 4th line center for awhile and see if Raffl centering schenn was an aberration. If it is, then put VLC as second line center with Raffl on his wing and send Schenn to the fourth line for now.

I don't give up on schenn yet in terms of a trade but canoli is right that he's entirely too inconsistent to deserve being penciled into the second line by default. And really, as a second line center, he really should have more assists even by accident.

[J0e Th0rnton]

@J0e Th0rnton

 

 Joe Pavelski at 22          19 g 22 a (your teams leading scorer this year)

 

 Joe Thornton at 22         22 g 46 a )your teams 2nd leading scorer...put up 33 more points at 23)

 

 Patrick Marleau at 22      21g 23 a (3rd leading scorer)

 

 Logan Couture at 22       32 g 24 a (4th)

 

 Brent Burns at 22            7 g 18 a (5th, grew up right here in Barrie, his numbers today are similiar to Schenns, and Burns is a good player...and HUGE)

This is apples and oranges in comparison and a lot of your numbers are wrong. You have to take into consideration what they are expected to become at draft time, how soon they are given NHL experience. How much play time they get with tough minutes(Against other teams top lines and checking lines 5 on 5, and PP and PK time), as opposed to sheltered minutes(If they were given 8-12 minutes a game against the other teams bottom lines, as opposed to 13-20 minutes per game in more situations.

 

Schenn, on draft day, was considered a surefire pick to become a star 1st liner pretty quickly. He has all kinds of the tools scouts love, or so they said at draft time(Skating, size and physicality, Above average scorer and playmaker, sneaky wrist shot, defensively strong). Most guys like that are given a quick route to the NHL. He has 3 years of NHL experience under his belt now, and is currently tied for 131st in scoring.

 

Pavelski first, was a very late 7th round draft pick, never expected to be much more than a 3rd/4th line player and not even given NHL playing time until he was age 22, and it was merely as a 3rd line checking center only playing half the season(And he scored on pace for 50 points) . He definitely jumped way ahead of expectations. Much like Ryane Clowe did. By his 3rd year in the NHL, Pavelski was 20th for the Selke trophy and scoring 25 goals and 59 points as a 2nd line center. 20th best defensive forward in the NHL of hundreds of forwards is not bad for a guy drafted 7th round.

 

Thornton is more comparable to Schenn in situation expectations. Draft expectations were higher for Thornton, but he was thrown to the wolves by Boston as an 18 year old for 50+ games and did not do well. Boston was in a bit of a bind though since all they had at Center was Allison. By age 21, Thornton had a 37 goal, 71 point season under his belt during the dead puck era and at age 22, he missed a lot of games, but scored 68 points in 66 games, which works out to around 84 points over a full season.

 

Marleau is definitely a different situation. By age 21, yeah, he had a 25 goal, 52 point year......which lead the team in scoring. Very different time to play for finesse players that dead puck clutch and grab era. Especially if you had a trap coach like Sutter. Marleau certainly did much better once he was able to use his finesse instead of being obstructed 100% of the time.

 

Couture?  Drafted 9th overall. Expected to go 20th overall because he was a questionmark due to his below average skating. But at Age 21, he was already better than Schenn is now. You wrote the wrong year for points BTW. At age 22, Couture had 31 goals and 65 points, which tied him for 32nd in scoring.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/c/coutulo01.html

 

Brent Burns. Was a defenseman and at age 22 had 15 goals and 43 points, which put him at 14th in scoring among defensemen and he was 12th in Norris trophy voting. Being the 12th best defenseman in the league at age 22 is, well, pretty darn good.

 

 

Why doesn't the coach give Schenn any PK time?

[Vanflyer]

And we're paying $4.5M for a 4th line center. Craziness, I tell ya.

 

I know it might sound odd, but since the beginning of march, vinnies production is .47 ppg and a -1 (in 19 games). 

 

Over an 82 game season, his line would look like this: 

 

30g, 21a, -4, 13min TOI per game. 

 

While 4.5 certainly seems crazy to pay a 4th line player, i would think of him more of a specialists and if he can produce like that and keep his +/- in check at a -4, I don't have a problem with it. Plus I like the added dimension of what does the opposition coach to defend the 4th line. 

[Vanflyer]

The only part I agree with is he disappears for long stretches.

 

I actually think is a bit of a min-perception. His longest stretch of no production was 6 games (end of march early april). Even within those games he was generating opportunities (ie. 5 shots against the loss to Bruines in april). Aside from that, he generally goes two games without any production. He has 33% more shots on goal than Vinny. Any outhits vinny by a wide margin. Sure he makes mistakes, but he plays the full 200 feet of ice allot better than Vinny. I am fine with keeping him at wing on the #2 line.  

 

Vinny has performed the exact same way (longest stretch no production is 6 games and goes generally 2 games without production).  Schenn and VLC are nearly identical in FO% (44). Schenn is 3rd on the team in hits while its a miracle if VLC swats a fly during a game. 

 

Truthfully, its a good conundrum to have swapping VLC / Schenn. I just don't see how its to Schenns advantage to play 4th line. Vinny is what he is. Also, so much of lines are about chemistry. Look at the move for Vinny to 4th line. He seems to have gelled with his linemates. Likewise, maybe the Raffl move will generate chemistry for that second line. 

Edited April 8, 2014 by Vanflyer

[caluso]

It seems pretty clear that Schenn did not meet your expectations.

 

What were your expectations for Schenn this year? How many goals? How many points?

 

What do you propose we do with Schenn?

what do i want with schenn? i think i was clear: i want him moved to the 4th line.

 

berube has donee a great job of holding people accountable.

 

i think we all agree that schenn disappears for weeks - why not hold him accountable.

 

i also think it's telling that the flyers - so quick to re-up their own - have failed to do so with schenn.

[caluso]

I actually think is a bit of a min-perception. His longest stretch of no production was 6 games (end of march early april). Even within those games he was generating opportunities (ie. 5 shots against the loss to Bruines in april). Aside from that, he generally goes two games without any production. He has 33% more shots on goal than Vinny. Any outhits vinny by a wide margin. Sure he makes mistakes, but he plays the full 200 feet of ice allot better than Vinny. I am fine with keeping him at wing on the #2 line.  

 

Vinny has performed the exact same way (longest stretch no production is 6 games and goes generally 2 games without production).  Schenn and VLC are nearly identical in FO% (44). Schenn is 3rd on the team in hits while its a miracle if VLC swats a fly during a game. 

 

Truthfully, its a good conundrum to have swapping VLC / Schenn. I just don't see how its to Schenns advantage to play 4th line. Vinny is what he is. Also, so much of lines are about chemistry. Look at the move for Vinny to 4th line. He seems to have gelled with his linemates. Likewise, maybe the Raffl move will generate chemistry for that second line. 

i think VLC is starting to play a lot better. but, more importantly, i think the team would be a lot better if VLC centered the second line.

 

I don't agree with you that schenn plays all 200 feet, but assuming that to be the case, he would then be a perfect "banger" on the fourth line.

 

i think it would make out team much less dependent on the first line.

 

just my opinion....

[Vanflyer]

but, more importantly, i think the team would be a lot better if VLC centered the second line.

 

I read your posts prior to this, and I just can't agree with the team is better with him at 2nd line center. I just don't see him doing anything better and as I stated before, I believe he is a liability defensively (more-so than Schenn). For a guy that is 6'4 210, he has a serious case of JVR-itis.

 

If he would help the team more on the second line, I would think he would be there now and showing his value, but he is not.  While I agree he is playing well, he also just got a swift kick in the teeth being demoted to the forth line as a tenured NHL player. 

[flyercanuck]

@J0e Th0rnton

 

 

Well everyones apples and oranges, because everyone develops at a different rate.  They're your top 5 scorers. I used Flyers on the previous page.

 

 I've just put up stats of a bunch of 22 year olds which show they aren't at the top of their game at that point in their careers.You can likely do it with most NHLers. Some are on a higher level at 18, 19, 20, but very few. You obviously can't make every player an exact comparison because they aren't all drafted at the exact same place with the exact same skillset/age/team and on and on. Couture is 25...2012/13 24, 2011/12 23, 2010/11 22 which is where I took his stats from. He's got a late birthday, so remove him if you want, he's not the point. I knew Burns was a defenceman.

 

 If you're saying Schenn hasn't developed as quickly as hoped  you won't get an arguement out of me. But we heard the same thing about Carter/Richards/JVR/Giroux as well as others around here. Couturier. They traded Bob cause they didn't have the patience to let him develop. Bring in the veteran. That worked out real well.

 

 As for the PK, I don't know. But we're ranked 6th in the league..

[caluso]

@J0e Th0rnton

 

 

Well everyones apples and oranges, because everyone develops at a different rate.  They're your top 5 scorers. I used Flyers on the previous page.

 

 I've just put up stats of a bunch of 22 year olds which show they aren't at the top of their game at that point in their careers.You can likely do it with most NHLers. Some are on a higher level at 18, 19, 20, but very few. You obviously can't make every player an exact comparison because they aren't all drafted at the exact same place with the exact same skillset/age/team and on and on. Couture is 25...2012/13 24, 2011/12 23, 2010/11 22 which is where I took his stats from. He's got a late birthday, so remove him if you want, he's not the point. I knew Burns was a defenceman.

 

 If you're saying Schenn hasn't developed as quickly as hoped  you won't get an arguement out of me. But we heard the same thing about Carter/Richards/JVR/Giroux as well as others around here. Couturier. They traded Bob cause they didn't have the patience to let him develop. Bring in the veteran. That worked out real well.

 

 As for the PK, I don't know. But we're ranked 6th in the league..

its not fair to compare schenn to bob, richards and giroux. all of those guys showed true potential. 

 

bob was clearly an athletic freak who showed great flashes but wore down at the end. let's not forget that he played a year of uninterrupted hockey- and in a foreign land without the benefit of friends or family. there's no doubt that the team should have been more patient with him. in fact, i was bob's biggest supporter. 

 

when richards played, he made a difference on the ice. it was off the ice, that he had issues.

 

and it was obvious to everyone, that giroux would be special.

 

i cant say any of the above about schenn.

Edited April 8, 2014 by caluso

[fanaticV3.0]

Not terribly surprising given this is the first season he has played more than 54 games. His points per game pace is no better than it was last season and he had not earned more icetime by improving.

 

For a guy depicted as a sure thing first line talent in the draft, I expect more from him in development at age 22 going on 23 than a 41 to 45 point season. Especially since he gets Powerplay time and no PK time. Generally, forwards are having their best years around age 22 to 28.

 

His ppg game went up significantly his second year here from .33 to .55 and is virtually the same this year (.53). That alone is progress. If you said he is not progressing as fast as expected/hoped, we're not having this conversation. But when you say he shows no signs of progression at all, that's simply wrong.

[flyercanuck]

its not fair to compare schenn to bob, richards and giroux. all of those guys showed true potential. 

 

bob was clearly an athletic freak who showed great flashes but wore down at the end. let's not forget that he played a year of uninterrupted hockey- and in a foreign land without the benefit of friends or family. there's no doubt that the team should have been more patient with him. in fact, i was bob's biggest supporter. 

 

when richards played, he made a difference on the ice. it was off the ice, that he had issues.

 

and it was obvious to everyone, that giroux would be special.

 

i cant say any of the above about schenn.

 

 Schenn scored 2 goals his last game. He was the games 1st star. That isn't making a difference? His problem (like a lot of young players) is consistency. Which I tried pointing out with many players that age. Some who turned out to be great, some good.

 

 If you don't recall people complaining about Richards or Girouxs development, maybe you were on vacation those years?

[fanaticV3.0]

 Schenn scored 2 goals his last game. He was the games 1st star. That isn't making a difference? His problem (like a lot of young players) is consistency. Which I tried pointing out with many players that age. Some who turned out to be great, some good.

 

 If you don't recall people complaining about Richards or Girouxs development, maybe you were on vacation those years?

 

If scoring is all it takes to make a difference, then why aren't we talking about Rinaldo? He scored in the Buffalo game too. Caluso can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure that's really what he was talking about. I'm pretty sure he's talking about being an impact player and citing one example isn't exactly proof of that. A player can affect the outcome of any individual game, but that doesn't mean he's a "difference maker".

Edited April 8, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[brelic]

 Schenn scored 2 goals his last game. He was the games 1st star. That isn't making a difference? His problem (like a lot of young players) is consistency. Which I tried pointing out with many players that age. Some who turned out to be great, some good.

 

 If you don't recall people complaining about Richards or Girouxs development, maybe you were on vacation those years?

 

It seems like there's a tendency to compare and use that as a measure of expectations.

 

In reality, the only measuring stick for Brayden Schenn is Brayden Schenn. Comparing him to other players gives you an idea of how those other players developed, that's it. There are 1st round busts and 7th round surprises. 

[radoran]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about being an impact player and citing one example isn't exactly proof of that. A player can affect the outcome of any individual game, but that doesn't mean he's a "difference maker".

 

How about the six Game Winning Goals Schenn has this season?

 

Tied for the team lead with some guy named "Giroux."

[fanaticV3.0]

How about the six Game Winning Goals Schenn has this season?

 

Tied for the team lead with some guy named "Giroux."

 

Do I think he's a difference maker? I don't think it's a yes or no answer at this point. I think he is capable of being one and is headed in that direction (slowly, but it's happening). But I think whoever said he has consistency issues had a legit point. He shows signs of one, but doesn't do it frequently enough to where I'd call him one yet.

[flyercanuck]

If scoring is all it takes to make a difference, then why aren't we talking about Rinaldo? He scored in the Buffalo game too. Caluso can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure that's really what he was talking about. I'm pretty sure he's talking about being an impact player and citing one example isn't exactly proof of that. A player can affect the outcome of any individual game, but that doesn't mean he's a "difference maker".

 

 

 I think Brayden Schenn has scored a few more goals, and been chosen one of the games 3 stars, a few more times than Rinaldo.

[flyercanuck]

Do I think he's a difference maker? I don't think it's a yes or no answer at this point. I think he is capable of being one and is headed in that direction (slowly, but it's happening). But I think whoever said he has consistency issues had a legit point. He shows signs of one, but doesn't do it frequently enough to where I'd call him one yet.

 

 I, for one..... I mentioned it being part of being a 22 year old NHLer. As Rad mentioned, his 6 game winners, tying him for the team lead, says he's doing something right. And making a positive difference in games.

[J0e Th0rnton]

@J0e Th0rnton

 

 

Well everyones apples and oranges, because everyone develops at a different rate.  They're your top 5 scorers. I used Flyers on the previous page.

 

 I've just put up stats of a bunch of 22 year olds which show they aren't at the top of their game at that point in their careers.You can likely do it with most NHLers. Some are on a higher level at 18, 19, 20, but very few. You obviously can't make every player an exact comparison because they aren't all drafted at the exact same place with the exact same skillset/age/team and on and on. Couture is 25...2012/13 24, 2011/12 23, 2010/11 22 which is where I took his stats from. He's got a late birthday, so remove him if you want, he's not the point. I knew Burns was a defenceman.

 

 If you're saying Schenn hasn't developed as quickly as hoped  you won't get an arguement out of me. But we heard the same thing about Carter/Richards/JVR/Giroux as well as others around here. Couturier. They traded Bob cause they didn't have the patience to let him develop. Bring in the veteran. That worked out real well.

 

 As for the PK, I don't know. But we're ranked 6th in the league..

Generally, by the 3rd year of the entry level contract, a player with the expectations to be a star 1st liner has better than a 40+ point season, unless their development is curtailed by being constantly used below the 2nd line. That is all I am getting at. I do not see Schenn ever becoming a star 1st liner. 2nd line center is his ceiling in my eyes now.

 

its not fair to compare schenn to bob, richards and giroux. all of those guys showed true potential. 

 

bob was clearly an athletic freak who showed great flashes but wore down at the end. let's not forget that he played a year of uninterrupted hockey- and in a foreign land without the benefit of friends or family. there's no doubt that the team should have been more patient with him. in fact, i was bob's biggest supporter. 

 

when richards played, he made a difference on the ice. it was off the ice, that he had issues.

 

and it was obvious to everyone, that giroux would be special.

 

i cant say any of the above about schenn.

That's the thing. Schenn was projected to be better than he is showing. Mike Richards level is exactly what is expected of him, but it is just not happening. By his 3rd year, Richards was scoring over a PPG and was 5th for the selke. Giroux improved visibly between years.

 

His ppg game went up significantly his second year here from .33 to .55 and is virtually the same this year (.53). That alone is progress. If you said he is not progressing as fast as expected/hoped, we're not having this conversation. But when you say he shows no signs of progression at all, that's simply wrong.

Yes, between his first and second year, we saw visible improvement in PPG and icetime. But this year compared to last? Nothing, nor is his defensive game what was advertized.

 

 Schenn scored 2 goals his last game. He was the games 1st star. That isn't making a difference? His problem (like a lot of young players) is consistency. Which I tried pointing out with many players that age. Some who turned out to be great, some good.

 

 If you don't recall people complaining about Richards or Girouxs development, maybe you were on vacation those years?

Richards and Giroux showed great improvements year by year during their entry level.