Flyers screwed out of drafting Kane?

[flyercanuck]

I'll bite. I wanted to like JVR. I really did. However, I saw that he was never going to fully buy into what's required to take his game to the next level and be amongst the elite at his position. Now, part of that blame goes to UNH, where he played his NCAA hockey. They allowed him to develop lazy habits that should have been corrected immediately. JVR was allowed to cherry pick and not back check hard. He didn't really have to play any sort of defense there. As well, he only played a 40 game schedule. If he would have went to junior hockey, those bad habits would have been corrected and he would have gotten used to playing a long schedule. For me, JVR was all about the easy way to get things done. Million dollar talent, ten cent work ethic. He was given a prime job on the left wing of Giroux and he blew it. That's something we can all say pretty fairly. He had the chance to become a 35 to 40 goal scorer in Philadelphia on Giroux's wing and he blew it. Yes, I get that he broke his foot and he suffered a concussion, but during the time he did play, he was no hell. 

 

As for JVR's time in Toronto, he started out hot, no doubt about it. He looked like he was going to be that 85 to 90 point elite winger. However, once the rest of the league caught on to him, he practically disappeared. He stopped fighting for pucks. He stopped going to the net. He stopped doing all the things he did to start the season. He rested on laurels and pretty much coasted down the stretch when his team needed him to really step up. And once again, I blame that on his development at UNH.

 

I wish JVR all the luck in the world because there's obviously talent there (legitimate talent that should make him one of the elite game breakers). However, I wouldn't rest hopes on him because he simply doesn't have the drive to sustain that for long periods of time.

 

 I think I've said pretty much the same thing over the years. Although after watching Domi on London this year I was appalled at how the Hunters allowed him to be such a selfish imp with the puck- there's no 'we" in that guys game.

 

 After taking a lot of abuse earlier in the year from Leaf fans on how they raped us in that trade, many of them are now saying they should trade JVR while his value is high because they think Lupul can produce the same on that line.

 

 When JVR puts his mind to it, he can be a great player. But I agree with jammer, I honestly don't think he loves playing hockey. Because he sure doesn't put his mind to it as much as he plays with a "ahh, just can't be bothered" attitude. And that's the part that frustrates the hell out of you...cause he gives you glimpses of what he can be.

 

 Glad he's gone - not happy with the return and never was.

[OccamsRazor]

I respect, and disagee with, the position.

Not like he's scored 30 twice.

Yet.

 

 

But it's like has been mentioned his is still streaking and scores in bunches....i still see the same work ethic issues as when he was here, and when they needed him in the last quarter of the season he didn't show up and once again and wouldn't have made 30 goals had he not showed of for a few games.

 

I don't miss him at all. In like mentioned in the 2010 playoff he was streaky and inconsistent....and may be for the entirety of his NHL career.

 

I'm still waiting for one consistent year before claiming he has turned the corner.   

[OccamsRazor]

 When JVR puts his mind to it, he can be a great player. But I agree with jammer, I honestly don't think he loves playing hockey. Because he sure doesn't put his mind to it as much as he plays with a "ahh, just can't be bothered" attitude. And that's the part that frustrates the hell out of you...cause he gives you glimpses of what he can be.

 

And those same words were in his scouting report coming into the draft the biggest issues with his inconsistency and work ethic and it's still the case 7 years later.

 

There haven't but any comments i've seen on this kids talent level we all know it's there....it's his intensity and work ehtic....things that will carry you even later in your career when your skills begin to erode...he needs to find that sooner than later. 

[ruxpin]

And those same words were in his scouting report coming into the draft the biggest issues with his inconsistency and work ethic and it's still the case 7 years later.

There haven't but any comments i've seen on this kids talent level we all know it's there....it's his intensity and work ehtic....things that will carry you even later in your career when your skills begin to erode...he needs to find that sooner than later.

We'll just call that last paragraph "Vinny."

[Polaris922]

Sorry boys but this thread makes me laugh. Some of you are reasonable and said "hey we just didnt win the lottery". To those who did I tip my cap. To the "we got screwed" crowd, it sucks to lose a lottery, but once again there was no conspiracy to put it to the Flyers.

[jammer2]

Sorry boys but this thread makes me laugh. Some of you are reasonable and said "hey we just didnt win the lottery". To those who did I tip my cap. To the "we got screwed" crowd, it sucks to lose a lottery, but once again there was no conspiracy to put it to the Flyers.

 

 Just to clarify, I did say we got screwed, but was not implying any type of conspiracy theory....just stating we got screwed by fate.

[Vanflyer]

To the "we got screwed" crowd, it sucks to lose a lottery, but once again there was no conspiracy to put it to the Flyers.

 

I don't think the "we go screwed" crowd was saying the lottery was rigged. More in the sense that the Flyers had, by a mile, their worse season in history and worst in the league. It is more sour grapes of a "should have" gotten the #1 pick for sucking that bad v. a league put a fix in. (imho). 

 

People say we would have drafted Turris instead of JVR with the 2nd overall pick. I completely disagree. Trurris finally put it together last season. JVR has been showing flashes all along. Add to that the theatrics of Turris in Phoenix that were very Lindros-esque, I want no part of that player. I thought he was far to lanky coming out of the WHL would need significant seasoning. It seems as if he finally has matured into his body at age 24 (190 lbs now v. the 170 when he entered the league). 

[Polaris922]

I'll accept the "screwed by fate" thinking as well. Some seem to think there's more to it than that. Or maybe I'm just getting so used to the conspiracy theories around here it just seems that way to me!

[jammer2]

@Vanflyer  I think Turris will end up being the best player out of him and JVR. He was kind of unfairly thrust into top line duties with the Sens when Spezza went down. It may have helped him in the long run, he got to play against the other teams top defensive units, which is a real learning experience if your receptive to the information....which I think Turris is. Rumor is Ottawa is shopping Spezza all over the league, so Turris may get the #1 spot by default again. He should be better prepared for the challenges that lie ahead because of last years playing time. Don't think the Yotes really handled Turris the right way, so I'm thinking they may have held him back a bit from developing properly. JVR will get his goals, but I'm willing to bet Turris has more offensive impact and will be significantly better in the all round game.

[ruxpin]

I find the speculation that Kane + old city = disaster, Arrogant and laughable. The guy lives in Chicago , and plays on a team chock full of guys his own age...and , and has had his run ins with the local press and the "authorities ". Now the Chicago press probably doesn't act like 10 year old school girls the way the philly press does, but there are plenty of places and opportunity for a young rich professional athlete to find trouble in Chicago.

I meant to respond to you on this before and got distracted by the lights.

Your post made me laugh because while I actually am a Center City + Kane = disaster guy and said as much but even while I was writing it I was thinking to myself "as if Chicago doesn't have clubs. It IS a bigger city, after all."

But here's why I believe it: it's not so much because it's PHILLY's center city. It was about the folks on the Flyers at the time and a lack of a good support system either among players, coaches, or management. Unlike Chicago.

Kane partied in Chicago (and in Buffalo, for that matter) but from the outside it seems their organization did a good job reigning him in a bit.

Maybe that's crap. Maybe he has the minor run ins he did and he straightened himself out there and he'd have straightened himself out here.

I just feel like at the time there was a sizeable group on the Flyers that might have been a horrible influence.

All that said, Kane on the Flyers in 2010 clearly makes a big difference. Maybe not the disaster I was flippantly asserting

[flyercanuck]

@ruxpin

 

 I'd guess Toews (among others) would have had a sitdown with Kane. And I'm sure I recall the Hawks management having a 'discussion" with him after his Cinco de Mayo I'm a way better player than drinker episode embarrassing the franchise yet again.

 

 Either way I don't think it would have been a fairytale ending in Philly.

[King Knut]

Giroux had 6 points in 7 games.

That's not Jeff Carter numbers or anything, but it ain't shabby either.

All the rangers did was stop it from being worse.

The flyers lost because brayden coburn had more points than most of the forwards and Lundquist shut down every flyer. Not because the swallowed Giroux in particular.

This finals is going to be interesting. LA excels at rope a dope and finding cracks. Both teams have goaltenders that are taking things to another level.

I think you kind of have a point in that I think the rangers shut down and low % shot restriction defense would have faired better against a more structured transition team like the Blackhawks.

Suter and the Kings may be able to find cracks in the armor better over a full series.

But the rangers made some good moves and game together at the right point in the season. They're playing well. I really thought the Habs had more fight in them.

It'll be a good series.

I think the Rangers would love to see Kane,considering what they did to Giroux.

[King Knut]

I'm not sure I buy all that.

This would have been about the point when the flyers started putting rookies in foster homes. Remember Giroux stayed with that lady (forget her name, she's fostered flyers before I think) and the so did someone else?

reemer had some episodes exploited while he was in school but I don't remember seeing him get into mucho crap while here.

Of course he didn't show up for a year or two anyway come to think of it.

I meant to respond to you on this before and got distracted by the lights.

Your post made me laugh because while I actually am a Center City + Kane = disaster guy and said as much but even while I was writing it I was thinking to myself "as if Chicago doesn't have clubs. It IS a bigger city, after all."

But here's why I believe it: it's not so much because it's PHILLY's center city. It was about the folks on the Flyers at the time and a lack of a good support system either among players, coaches, or management. Unlike Chicago.

Kane partied in Chicago (and in Buffalo, for that matter) but from the outside it seems their organization did a good job reigning him in a bit.

Maybe that's crap. Maybe he has the minor run ins he did and he straightened himself out there and he'd have straightened himself out here.

I just feel like at the time there was a sizeable group on the Flyers that might have been a horrible influence.

All that said, Kane on the Flyers in 2010 clearly makes a big difference. Maybe not the disaster I was flippantly asserting

[King Knut]

I'm not sure I buy all that.

This would have been about the point when the flyers started putting rookies in foster homes. Remember Giroux stayed with that lady (forget her name, she's fostered flyers before I think) and the so did someone else?

reemer had some episodes exploited while he was in school but I don't remember seeing him get into mucho crap while here.

Of course he didn't show up for a year or two anyway come to think of it.

I meant to respond to you on this before and got distracted by the lights.

Your post made me laugh because while I actually am a Center City + Kane = disaster guy and said as much but even while I was writing it I was thinking to myself "as if Chicago doesn't have clubs. It IS a bigger city, after all."

But here's why I believe it: it's not so much because it's PHILLY's center city. It was about the folks on the Flyers at the time and a lack of a good support system either among players, coaches, or management. Unlike Chicago.

Kane partied in Chicago (and in Buffalo, for that matter) but from the outside it seems their organization did a good job reigning him in a bit.

Maybe that's crap. Maybe he has the minor run ins he did and he straightened himself out there and he'd have straightened himself out here.

I just feel like at the time there was a sizeable group on the Flyers that might have been a horrible influence.

All that said, Kane on the Flyers in 2010 clearly makes a big difference. Maybe not the disaster I was flippantly asserting

[ruxpin]

I'm not sure I buy all that.

This would have been about the point when the flyers started putting rookies in foster homes. Remember Giroux stayed with that lady (forget her name, she's fostered flyers before I think) and the so did someone else?

reemer had some episodes exploited while he was in school but I don't remember seeing him get into mucho crap while here.

Of course he didn't show up for a year or two anyway come to think of it.

 

 

Of course you could very well be right.   I could argue this both ways, but I still think the Flyers destroy Kane one way or another (or at least impede his growth until traded elsewhere).

 

Richards, Carter, Upshall, Umberger, Hartnell.  

 

And then you have an idiot like Downie.

 

I remember the babysitter thing for rookies.  I didn't remember the lady for Giroux (I do remember him living with Briere for awhile, but the lady could have been before that).   That did seem to insulate Giroux from the Center City thing, so maybe it would have done the same for Kane.  Good point.

 

Center City aside, I just have this horribly cynical thought that somehow and in some way the Flyers would have butchered it.

[King Knut]

Maybe it was Reemer?  I can't remember exactly.  But it seemed like there was a strong move around that time to push the guys away from the center city lifestyle.  That said, I think one of them getting into real trouble might have been necessary to shut that whole thing down (if it really was even really a thing to begin with, which I'm not really sure it was).

 

 

Of course you could very well be right.   I could argue this both ways, but I still think the Flyers destroy Kane one way or another (or at least impede his growth until traded elsewhere).

 

Richards, Carter, Upshall, Umberger, Hartnell.  

 

And then you have an idiot like Downie.

 

I remember the babysitter thing for rookies.  I didn't remember the lady for Giroux (I do remember him living with Briere for awhile, but the lady could have been before that).   That did seem to insulate Giroux from the Center City thing, so maybe it would have done the same for Kane.  Good point.

 

Center City aside, I just have this horribly cynical thought that somehow and in some way the Flyers would have butchered it.

[ruxpin]

(if it really was even really a thing to begin with, which I'm not really sure it was

 

Yep. It sounds like where there was smoke there was fire, but it could very well be one of those Philly "Player X slept with Player Y's wife" things.

[King Knut]

One of the things about those rumor mill urban legends is that the players who are accused of sleeping with his teammate's wife is always someone that is also often rumored to be gay like Lindros or Carter.

 

Some guys just end up being a target for drama.  Especially if they aren't married with 4 kids and a house in the Cherry Hill.

Which isn't to say that those guys aren't a little more social and likely to be out on the town... but what 25 year old single guy isn't?

 

 

Yep. It sounds like where there was smoke there was fire, but it could very well be one of those Philly "Player X slept with Player Y's wife" things.

[Vanflyer]

Don't think the Yotes really handled Turris the right way, so I'm thinking they may have held him back a bit from developing properly. JVR will get his goals, but I'm willing to bet Turris has more offensive impact and will be significantly better in the all round game.

 

For sure there are two sides to the tale of the Yotes / Turris saga. Far be it from me to way who was right. I can see that Turris has the potential to be a much all around player than JVR (and particularly given he plays the center position, which is the hardest of the forward spots). If JVR ever puts it together (ala Jeff Carter), he could be a monster. I mentioned on other threads that Carter always made it look easy. I think he found the right coach to do whatever it is that he did (Suter) to get him going. It also does not hurt that bake-a-cake stevens is there for Carter to cry on his shoulder when Suter is being too mean. 

 

Seriously, the player I see today v. the one I saw a year ago, v. the one that dogged his way out of Columbus v. with the Flyers is like night and day. I will still take Jake and Couturier for him everyday of the week. 

 

One thing to note about Turris, we had Richards and Carter as our cornerstones at that stage (and perhaps Primeau was still playing). So we were log jammed up the middle and sorely lacking a sizeable winger with speed. People dog JVR's worth ethic, but I know for a fact his first summer, he worked out with Giroux (who's summer workouts are infamous). The second summer, he stayed at the hotel next to the Voorhees rink and trained there everyday with Mccrossin- only took the weekends off. It looks like he does not care or does not put in the work, but I think he does. Its just that he comes off with a laize'faire attitude ala Lindros for whatever reason. 

 

The biggest thing, is he is not a game changer. His 30-30 are great, but seldom does he take control of a game like a Toews / Giroux / Kane / Crosby etc. (I could put Subban in there too, but I think Subban is one dimensional). 

[flyercanuck]

@King Knut

 

 Lindros and Carter were rumoured to be gay? LMAO! By who, jealous boyfriends?

[OccamsRazor]

Lindros and Carter were rumoured to be gay?

 

Yeah that is news to me.

 

And really i wouldn't care.

 

My hockey viewing doesn't go back as far as yours or many here. But i have never seen anyone dominate ever in any sport like BIG E sorry even if he was gay wouldn't have cared....he is the reason i got sucked (no pun intended) into hockey those are the days when i was just learning and watching and it was so easy.

 

When downing some brews in Norfolk (where i was stationed Eric's first year) with the friend (he was a Sabres fan) who got me hooked at the local sports bar i just was in awe and was telling him it just looks unfair the way he played he looked most times to be playing with kids he was such a bull in a china shop.

 

I was envious of this kids good looks and just knew women would be throwing panties at him left and right....and still to this day even after how it ended he is bar none my favorite Flyer of all time.

[Vanflyer]

 Lindros and Carter were rumoured to be gay?

 

LOL, so this is Eric Lindros' "beard"? : http://www.blushingbridestudio.com/kina-eric

[Lindbergh31]

@ Polaris922

 

I was stating that we got screwed because we lost the 1st overall pick in the draft lottery eventhough we finished dead last for the season. If the NHL wanted to stick it to the Flyers then we'll never know but Flyers fans know there was no conspiracy on the draft lottery that year, but 2005 is a different story

[flyercanuck]

@OccamsRazor

 

 You should have seen him playing junior against kids with that bull in a china shop style. What an animal. I still have an autographed Oshawa Generals card he signed when he was 18. At the time I figured he was going to end up as a top 3 alltimer.

[OccamsRazor]

At the time I figured he was going to end up as a top 3 alltimer.

 

He could have maybe had the Flyers handled his concussion stuff better but i don't want to reopen all that again...but yeah i could only imagine how he was in juniors...i wonder if we'll ever see someone like him again.