Coburn to Edmonton for...?

[radoran]

I'm just saying I wouldn't send you 3rd overall for Coburn and nothing you have said has changed anyone's mind :-)

3rd overall is worth far far more then 22nd overall and a couple of nobodies.

And I'd say Bouwmeester is worth more in hockey circles than Coburn.

Ok dear hockey-draft-trading-God tell me what would you deem worthy your excellency!!!!!!! 

Weak sauce, Occ, weak weak sauce.

You don't want opinions, don't ask

[RonJeremy]

Whether the Flyers want to admit it or not, we are not Cup contenders. Timmo and Streit are a year older and slower, Grossman is a pylon, McDonald wasn't even retained by a defensively weak tems like the Isles , yet we are paying him like he's a top defenseman. He is an average defensman. Coburn is our best guy and Schenn was actually one of our better dman in the playoffs. We were very lucky that we didn't have many injuries to our defenseman last year. When your top offensive dman are 35 and 40 ,you surely can't expect another injury free season.any extended absence of either of these guys and it's over . So I would definitely look into dealing Coburn ,but only for the right price. We don't have the skill or depth on defense to go far it's time to do a quick rebuild on the blue line.

Sometimes you have to take 2 steps back to make a big leap later on. We are waiting on Haag, Ghost and Morin, and there are no dominant defensman to be had that will turn us into immediate contenders this year. So if we could somehow get Klefbom or Marincin and edmontoms 3rd pick for Coburn ,I would do it. Sure it would set us back a bit for now, but as this team stands we are not getting past the first round anyway. We would have Marincin or Klefbom to replace Coburn and still have the third pick, seventeenth pick , B Schenn and Laughton as trade bait to possibly move up in the draft and grab Ekblad, or enough chips to still and a good player with the third pick and then use our other assets to land a good young dman in a trade. There no point in another first round elimination, revamp and be a much better team in 2 years with our young demon coming up and our new acquisitions.

[OccamsRazor]

I'm just saying I wouldn't send you 3rd overall for Coburn and nothing you have said has changed anyone's mind :-)

3rd overall is worth far far more then 22nd overall and a couple of nobodies.

And I'd say Bouwmeester is worth more in hockey circles than Coburn.

Weak sauce, Occ, weak weak sauce.

You don't want opinions, don't ask

Weak sauce...what kind of answer is that? Oh is that your drink of choice? I asked your opinion and your rebuttal is weak sause...that is lame. Weak sauce Rad you are providing a definition....oh ok.

[jammer2]

So if we could somehow get Klefbom or Marincin and edmontoms 3rd pick for Coburn ,I would do it. Sure it would set us back a bit for now, but as this team stands we are not getting past the first round anyway.

 

 I usually agree with most of your posts and thoughts, but this....I don't get. You are either over-valuing Coburn or undervaluing the 3rd pick overall this year. I realize the value of a experienced d-man, but Klefbom is a pretty highly valued young prospect...but has not played in the NHL, I get that. I think it might take Klefbom and a prospect, but not Klef and a 3rd overall. I don't think you could get point producing valuable dman like Shattenkirk for that package, so Coburn is not doing it. I think it's a totally unrealistic return for Coburn.

[King Knut]

Would they give him up for Coburn and Ghost?

How about Coburn and Schenn?

Something tells me they will not be giving up Nurse for Coburn.

Losing Coburn would kill this dedense unless they are sure someone can jump in and play big minutes and no one on the current roster fits that bill IMO. Losing Coburn would make this defense utterly slow and extremely bad.

I have read that the oilers are seriously looking at Phaneuf too.

[King Knut]

Coburn lead the team in minutes per game. People hate on him for being slow or getting beat, but fail to notice that he's out there in the toughest situations against the best opposition.

He's our #1 guy. Far and away. I don't think Edmonton does that deal but not because coburn isn't worth it, more because I don't think they think they're one piece away.

If it was deadline time and they were poised for a run, I'd say differently. As it is, this isn't what they need.

I usually agree with most of your posts and thoughts, but this....I don't get. You are either over-valuing Coburn or undervaluing the 3rd pick overall this year. I realize the value of a experienced d-man, but Klefbom is a pretty highly valued young prospect...but has not played in the NHL, I get that. I think it might take Klefbom and a prospect, but not Klef and a 3rd overall. I don't think you could get point producing valuable dman like Shattenkirk for that package, so Coburn is not doing it. I think it's a totally unrealistic return for Coburn.

[King Knut]

MacDonald was offered a boat load of money to stay with the Isles. He didn't want to be there.

Like it or not he's a good player and makes this team better.

Not sure how they're not a contender when they were a smidge of offensive creativity away from ousting the rangers in the first round.

Not saying they are a contender, but I'd be silly to say they definitely weren't.

Whether the Flyers want to admit it or not, we are not Cup contenders. Timmo and Streit are a year older and slower, Grossman is a pylon, McDonald wasn't even retained by a defensively weak tems like the Isles , yet we are paying him like he's a top defenseman. He is an average defensman. Coburn is our best guy and Schenn was actually one of our better dman in the playoffs. We were very lucky that we didn't have many injuries to our defenseman last year. When your top offensive dman are 35 and 40 ,you surely can't expect another injury free season.any extended absence of either of these guys and it's over . So I would definitely look into dealing Coburn ,but only for the right price. We don't have the skill or depth on defense to go far it's time to do a quick rebuild on the blue line.

Sometimes you have to take 2 steps back to make a big leap later on. We are waiting on Haag, Ghost and Morin, and there are no dominant defensman to be had that will turn us into immediate contenders this year. So if we could somehow get Klefbom or Marincin and edmontoms 3rd pick for Coburn ,I would do it. Sure it would set us back a bit for now, but as this team stands we are not getting past the first round anyway. We would have Marincin or Klefbom to replace Coburn and still have the third pick, seventeenth pick , B Schenn and Laughton as trade bait to possibly move up in the draft and grab Ekblad, or enough chips to still and a good player with the third pick and then use our other assets to land a good young dman in a trade. There no point in another first round elimination, revamp and be a much better team in 2 years with our young demon coming up and our new acquisitions.

[aziz]

Whether the Flyers want to admit it or not, we are not Cup contenders.

 

when are people going to learn the lesson that is taught every couple seasons that every team capable of making the playoffs is a cup contender?  the new york rangers could not by the usual metrics be called "cup contenders" this season --they were just barely better than the flyers (and, frankly, that was the offensive coaching of vigneault plus the residue of totorella's defensive strategy; the further they get from the former, time-wise, the more like the canucks of two years ago they'll be)-- but then there they were, in the finals.  three seasons ago it was the devils.  two seasons before that, it was the flyers.  three seasons before that, it was ottawa.  to be ok putting a team on hold for years by intentionally opening up roster holes because they aren't going to be the las vegas odds-on favorites is just not paying attention.

 

McDonald wasn't even retained by a defensively weak tems like the Isles

 

?  he had turned down a 4 year/$16mil deal offered by snow.  what do you mean he "wasn't even retained"?  the isles traded a player they knew they would not be able to resign.

 

it's time to do a quick rebuild on the blue line.

 

unless you are trading for expensive vets, there is no such thing.  trading for weber and subban = quick rebuild, drafting or trading for 20 yearold prospects = long rebuild.

 

Sometimes you have to take 2 steps back to make a big leap later on.

 

sometimes.  the flyers just did that a couple seasons ago.  how often do you want them to play that game?

 

So if we could somehow get Klefbom or Marincin and edmontoms 3rd pick for Coburn ,I would do it. Sure it would set us back a bit for now

 

on any roster outside of edmonton, they are both years away from taking regular NHL shifts, and even more years away from being players of any particular impact.  how old do you want giroux to be when the team is finally ready to move forward?  he'd easily be 30 by the time any of klefbom, marincin, hagg, morin, or ghost are anything more than trainees on the third pair.

 

as this team stands we are not getting past the first round anyway

 

says who?  

 

again, it will be years before "our good young defensemen"  are anything more than newbies getting their inexperienced feet wet.  you go that route, decide to time the team's window based on them, and imo you're looking at 4 years, minimum.  likely more.  giroux at 33 is not the same as giroux at 26.  you really want to give that up?

 

this happens every offseason, i guess, so i don't know why i'm surprised.  every player who isn't in the top 25% of the league in their position need to be shipped out for kids who haven't even shown they are or will be NHL regulars.  i mean, as a prospect, coburn was borderline bluechip.  he turned into an effective but flawed player.  that couldn't possibly happen with the current bunch of kids (none of whom are projected to be as good as coburn was projected); they are definitely the answers, just need 18 months and they'll be kicking ass.  empty the roster to make way.

 

if an imperfect roster always means cutting deep for another overhaul, then there will never be a "now".  retaining established talent, even unspectacular established talent, is vital to moving a cohesive unit forward.  smart, purposeful changes, not kneejerk throw-the-hands-up changes.  add youth as youth demands being added, but unless your team is an edmonton/buffalo level of suck, you don't go digging out big holes for "maybe one day they'll be good" kids and call that an effective approach.  instead, you maintain your roster, and supplement it with incoming players who earn a place.

 

the faith placed in children who haven't shown anything at all on the big stage yet blows my mind.  

[RonJeremy]

Aziz, .....

 

the Isles staff talked about McDonald and as weak as their defense is they didn't think he was worth the $ he was looking for, but of course the Flyers with the most expensive mediocre defense ever assembled, decided he was.

 

True , Rangers were not predicted as top contenders, but the big difference is, they have a superstar dman in Mc D and two outstanding shutdown , shot blocking, defensive stalwarts in Staal and Girardi. We have no superstar defenseman, no shutdown defenseman...we have two over 35-40 fossils, 2 pylons, one inconsistent underachiever and one small overpaid guy. DEFENSE wins in all sports, even when we had Pronger our 3rd pair of Parent and Krajeck was so brutal that it was comical. Lack of defensive depth killed us as much as Leighton did. We do not have the defense to win now, so , id rather forgo another mediocre season and come back with a younger more balanced defense.

 

When we revamped a few years ago, but we only revamped the offense,  we as usual, did not address the weakest area, the defense. We paid lots of money for big slow guys like Schenn  and Grossman, I thought we learned our lesson with Rathje and Hatcher.  The 2 for 1 deals we did with LA and Columbus did improve our offensive depth and in the long run we win those trades, we need to do the same thing with a package of Coburn and B Schenn. Id rather trade Grossman and VLC, but who wants them and what are we  gonna get?

 

You never know what can happen at the draft, we could make some moves, Why do you think Hextall is so nonchalant about B Schenn , its because he is on the market, Hextall is no fool, he knows our defense blows. There will be a trade for sure. When we gave up Linseman for Howe, that was our anchor for the next 10 years, we did the same with Recchi for Desjardins, now its gonna be Brayden Schenns potential for a young dman with equal potential, unless its a package of more players or a vet like Coburn for a few assets

[OccamsRazor]

I'm just saying I wouldn't send you 3rd overall for Coburn and nothing you have said has changed anyone's mind :-)

3rd overall is worth far far more then 22nd overall and a couple of nobodies.

And I'd say Bouwmeester is worth more in hockey circles than Coburn.

 

 

Weak sauce, Occ, weak weak sauce.

You don't want opinions, don't ask

 

 

 

HA HA more tip toeing around the question you're so bold to shoot it down the trade  stating over priced this and that, so answer the question Rad plain and simple .....what value in picks is Coburn worth you seem to be able to tell me what he ain't worth...but can't tell me what he is worth.

 

When you're ready let us know. We'll be here keeping the light on for you.

[Vanflyer]

How about this trade Coburn to the Oilers for their 3rd overall and then trade the 3rd and 17th along with Brayden and Luke for the 1st overall???

 

Um, how do we know that Panthers will have the 1st overall?? The lottery is still in play, correct? I get your pun, but in reality, the Flyers could trade Coburn, Schenns, 17th pick, for a hope of the #1 overall pick (see Kane / JVR)?

 

puff, pass, puff

[aziz]

the Isles staff talked about McDonald and as weak as their defense is they didn't think he was worth the $ he was looking for, but of course the Flyers with the most expensive mediocre defense ever assembled, decided he was.

 

the flyers gave him one extra million per year for two extra years.  bad contract?  yes.  did the isles decide to not retain him?  no.  you want to complain about his deal, i'm on board.  you want to make it like it was the islanders who didn't want him, you're making stuff up.

 

True , Rangers were not predicted as top contenders, but the big difference is, they have a superstar dman in Mc D and two outstanding shutdown , shot blocking, defensive stalwarts in Staal and Girardi.

 

mcdonagh is a really good defenseman.  staal, too.  superstars?  only if the bar has lowered quite a bit after chelios and lindstrom retired.  girardi?  take a few minutes to browse rangers' forums and tell me how rangers fans feel about girardi.  there is a not small group that figure he is the reason they couldn't stand against LA.  the rangers have shot blocking?  know who led the league in shot blocking last season?  i won't spoil the surprise, go ahead and look it up.  here's the link:

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLSASALL&sort=blockedShots&viewName=rtssPlayerStats

 

weird, right?  but the flyers have no shot blocking.  

 

even when we had Pronger our 3rd pair of Parent and Krajeck was so brutal that it was comical

 

really?  you are going to pull out the half season that parent and krajicek were on the same team and call that making a point?

 

but you know what?  that is a point.  well made.  the flyers, with parent and krajicek as the bottom pair, took the blackhawks to overtime of game six.  what did the rangers do this season?  a whimpering exit in regulation of game 5?  and you are more impressed with their team why?

 

the grass is so much greener it is freaking emerald.

 

When we gave up Linseman for Howe, that was our anchor for the next 10 years, we did the same with Recchi for Desjardins, now its gonna be Brayden Schenns potential for a young dman with equal potential, unless its a package of more players or a vet like Coburn for a few assets

 

yup.  traded for 28 yearold mark howe and 27 yearold eric desjardins.  do you see the difference?  the present day equivalents are weber or suter or keith or yandle.   not brian lee or luc bourdon or cam barker or boris valabik (top 10 overall picked dmen who turned out to be completely worthless).  you want to replicate those acquisitions, look for established guys who have proven they aren't over-hyped crap.  because the kids, especially dmen, are exactly that at least half the time.   you tear your team apart in favor of ISS hype, you end up with an alberta-sized mess. 

[Vanflyer]

Yeah it's a lot but you have to pay to play right. It would remove a slow Dman and free of over 8 mill in cap space.

 

Um, you just removed 3 players for 1. ELC is fine, but what about replacing the other two players? How much is that going to cost?? 

 

Add to that, you are not even guaranteed to get the #1 pick. Its a non move in my mind. Now, if Panthers GET the #1 and draft him, I would be willing to do that trade, but need to throw in a forward to repla

 

[Vanflyer]

weird, right?  but the flyers have no shot blocking.  

 

Mcdonald led the league in blocked shots for d-men. Just saying. 

[Vanflyer]

When we gave up Linseman for Howe, that was our anchor for the next 10 years, we did the same with Recchi for Desjardins, now its gonna be Brayden Schenns potential for a young dman with equal potential, unless its a package of more players or a vet like Coburn for a few assets

 

Okay, but both those trades were for established d-men. Also, the Desjardin trade came WITH LeClaire. 

 

Both of those trades were steals and rarely happen anymore. 

[flyercanuck]

@Vanflyer

 

 Panthers do have the #1.

[RonJeremy]

I agree trades like Howe and Desjardins don't happen any more and we don't want to gut the team for a veteran dman, that's why I propose a deal like B Schenn a potentially very good center , but not quite there yet.... For a young defenseman who is of similar value and potential. I know we are not robbing any one, in order to get something decent we have to give up something decent. Had homer maybe drafted a dman or two when we had the chance we would not be in this mess

[RonJeremy]

Yes Mc Donald led the league in blocked shots, but his overall game compared to the 3 Ranger dman is night and day. You never heard about McDonald shutting down the other teams top lines game in and game out. LA was just too strong for the Rangers, but against the East they shut down every one

[canoli]

LA was just too strong for the Rangers, but against the East they shut down every one

 

they did. OTOH the Flyers committed so many unforced errors, TOs that were just brain-dead, panicky...dumb... the Flyers' skaters - pretty much all of them racked up way too many TOs to compete against any good team - and we still took them to 7 games.

 

I thought the Flyers played 1 - count em, ONE good game out of seven - G6 at home. That was it. Meanwhile a month before that the Flyers were clicking along pretty good, playing well as a team. I don't know what happened - that letdown after they solidified their PO spot was bad - and they just never recovered their game in time for the POs.

[radoran]

Mcdonald led the league in blocked shots for d-men. Just saying. 

 

Grossmann was ninth in the league in blocks (all of 68 fewer than MacDonald). Streit, Timonen, Coburn and Schenn all had 110+ blocks (Streit 108).

[radoran]

Yes Mc Donald led the league in blocked shots, but his overall game compared to the 3 Ranger dman is night and day. You never heard about McDonald shutting down the other teams top lines game in and game out. LA was just too strong for the Rangers, but against the East they shut down every one

 

There's more than a little argument to be made that MacDonald blocked so many shots because he was spending so much time in the defensive end.

 

Corsi seems to bear this out.

[radoran]

HA HA more tip toeing around the question you're so bold to shoot it down the trade  stating over priced this and that, so answer the question Rad plain and simple .....what value in picks is Coburn worth you seem to be able to tell me what he ain't worth...but can't tell me what he is worth.

 

When you're ready let us know. We'll be here keeping the light on for you.

 

You cited Bouwmeester, who I clearly stated has a higher value in hockey circles than Coburn - and he got the 22nd overall and two nobodies.

 

I'm not tip toeing at all - Coburn is barely worth a low first much less 3rd overall.

 

I'll restate, again:

 

1) If I'm Edmonton, I'm not giving up the 3rd (much less the 3rd PLUS) for Coburn. 

 

2) If I'm Coburn, I'm not waiving to go to Edmonton.

 

Absolutely nothing you have said has affected either of those two points.

[murraycraven]

@Vanflyer

Panthers do have the #1.

Puff puff!

[OccamsRazor]

Um, how do we know that Panthers will have the 1st overall?? The lottery is still in play, correct? I get your pun, but in reality, the Flyers could trade Coburn, Schenns, 17th pick, for a hope of the #1 overall pick (see Kane / JVR)?

 

puff, pass, puff

 

UH.......no you must not get good reception in your cave Florida has the #1 overall pick.....pay attention stop day dreaming....that is my job.

 

And by the way i'll still puff puff pass for good measure. to left mon to left!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :blink:

[OccamsRazor]

Um, you just removed 3 players for 1. ELC is fine, but what about replacing the other two players? How much is that going to cost?? 

 

Well that is a whole different question and they have about 5 mill already on top of the 8 mill you just freed up then add the 4.2 mill from Pronger LTIR money and that is about 17 mill to find other guys to replace them.

 

One i would sign would be Stralman.

 

And then you can sign the LW for G. with more room to add.