BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I feel for Schenn because they botched his development from the get go. I know some have said that some of it is on the player as well, but the Flyers initially wanted him at center, then moved him to wing, felt he wasn't going to make an impact there so they moved him back to center, then the lock out came and he was at center, but then was moved back to the wing only to be moved back to center and then they signed Vinny, but Vinny whine about playing wing, so they moved Schenn to wing and then when that didn't work, they moved him back to center only to move him back to the wing yet again. Maybe it's just me, but you put any player through that and yeah, there's going to be some issues. I think it's probably best for Schenn that he moves on to a new team where they're going to use him in one spot and one spot only and not move him all over the country side. There's still quite a bit of upside to his game though, so the return for Schenn won't be too bad at all. I mentioned Edmonton being a possible destination, but what about teams like Phoenix (a package built around Brandon Gormley), Carolina (a package built around Ryan Murphy), or Winnipeg. Those would probably be the best places for him, so if they move him, hopefully he goes there. Yeah, he might become another JVR if moved, but at the same time, if he stays, he might not ever get a fair shake here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 to quietly beat the horse, you've seen nothing that says schenn is good on the wing...have you seen anything that says he'd be good at center? is it really the position that is the problem, or is it schenn in general not transitioning from junior to the NHL as well as was hoped, and the position thing is kind of irrelevant? it's just every time i hear the position thing as regards schenn, i can't help but wonder what, exactly, would make him more effective in the middle of the ice. if he were an elite possession guy who was amazing on faceoffs and was an exceptional passer, i'd agree his skillset isn't being used to the fullest on the wing. but none of those things are the case. he is a shooter who likes to work the boards/corners. i can't see where the big bump in contribution/production would come from by sliding him 30 feet to the right and making him responsible for his line's puck distribution. I cannot argue with any of that. In fact, in the interest of full disclosure, over the summer I was advocating sending him to Giroux's wing. And I don't have a good answer for you for the bolded above. I think with 20g and 41 points in his first full season that he has something that would be quite useful on another team. Arguably useful on the Flyers. And it's arguable that he could build on this going forward. But I have to tell you, there's nothing particularly inspiring watching him. I can't tell you how many times I've watched a game and wondered whether Schenn played. He's supposed to be physical, but I don't see that except for the infrequent occasions where I think, "see, he can do that." You pointed out the faceoff thing. He seems like he should be good in the corners or parked in front of the net, but he does none of that consistently either. My big thing with him is consistency, which I see none of. Maybe that comes as he matures, but when does that happen (the day after traded, probably)? So, I'm okay with trading him while some other GM can still look at 23 years old and 20G 41 pts in his first season and reason that there is more. So long as we get quality (even a top 5 pick) back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 True I mean Laughton has scored 219 points in Junior. BSchenn only had 315. We should certainly project Laughton higher. Agree with the point. But you and I aren't running the team (in my case, that's a good thing). I just think that long term the organization seems higher on Laughton than Schenn. And they clearly thought more of the aging former Bolt than they did of the guy they already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 True I mean Laughton has scored 219 points in Junior. BSchenn only had 315. We should certainly project Laughton higher. In fairness to Laughton, prior to the arrival of DJ Smith, Laughton could never get above the third or fourth line with Gary Agnew as the head coach in Oshawa. Agnew had a tendency to stifle younger players on lower lines while showing a preference to his veteran players, even if young players out performed them (sounds pretty familiar). When DJ Smith arrived, Laughton got a chance to play and he became a very good player under his watch. I wonder how much different Laughton would have produced if Smith were there from the get go. As for projecting Laughton to be a higher performing player, I don't think that that is very difficult at all. The guy gives it his all on the ice. As others have pointed out, sometimes Schenn doesn't do that. He floats. I'm not saying he's a Brendl type of floater, but there's times when Schenn has drive and times when he doesn't. Laughton has drive all the time. Laughton is also very adept at playing in all three zones (can't say that about Schenn). Those, to me, are the reasons why Laughton projects higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 The thing I see the most with Schenn is lack of compete level Completely agree. I've been using the word "consistency," but I think that's more to the point. The same could be said of both brothers, for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 But you and I aren't running the team (in my case, that's a good thing). I just think that long term the organization seems higher on Laughton than Schenn. Sure, they are higher long term on Laughton. They haven't screwed up his development yet. Wait three years and we'll be dealing Laughton for the next version of Danny Markov. And they clearly thought more of the aging former Bolt than they did of the guy they already have. You actually think there was thought that went into the VLC signing? Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 But I have to tell you, there's nothing particularly inspiring watching him. I can't tell you how many times I've watched a game and wondered whether Schenn played. He's supposed to be physical, but I don't see that except for the infrequent occasions where I think, "see, he can do that." You pointed out the faceoff thing. He seems like he should be good in the corners or parked in front of the net, but he does none of that consistently either. My big thing with him is consistency, which I see none of. Maybe that comes as he matures, but when does that happen (the day after traded, probably)? Schenn so far looks like a guy that goes in the corners because that's what he was told to do, as opposed to going into the corners because that's what he *wants* to do. Know what I mean? He plays a very passive kind of game. Personally, I think Berube's being kind of a **** to him. Calling out a 23 year old and moving him off the top line because it didn't work out after 5 periods? Maybe it's a perverse form of motivation, but Schenn seems to be the only recipient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 But I have to tell you, there's nothing particularly inspiring watching him. I can't tell you how many times I've watched a game and wondered whether Schenn played. agree entirely. and that's why i react to the position thing. even a guy uncomfortable with his position/role can make himself noticeable. even if he is making coverage mistakes because he isn't familiar with where he is skating, maybe has a tough time knowing where to look for supporting players or whatever...but he can still have an impact. when he just completely doesn't, i have a tough time really laying that at the feet of the letters next to his name on the lineup card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 In fairness to Laughton, prior to the arrival of DJ Smith, Laughton could never get above the third or fourth line with Gary Agnew as the head coach in Oshawa. Agnew had a tendency to stifle younger players on lower lines while showing a preference to his veteran players, even if young players out performed them (sounds pretty familiar). When DJ Smith arrived, Laughton got a chance to play and he became a very good player under his watch. I wonder how much different Laughton would have produced if Smith were there from the get go. As for projecting Laughton to be a higher performing player, I don't think that that is very difficult at all. The guy gives it his all on the ice. As others have pointed out, sometimes Schenn doesn't do that. He floats. I'm not saying he's a Brendl type of floater, but there's times when Schenn has drive and times when he doesn't. Laughton has drive all the time. Laughton is also very adept at playing in all three zones (can't say that about Schenn). Those, to me, are the reasons why Laughton projects higher. Fine, but Laughton has played six whole games in the NHL and has never scored 20 goals. Schenn has. I am amazed that we seem to want the Flyers to "develop" players, but are so quick to label them busts or non-competing or whatever just a few years removed from being "high" on them. Are there a lot of 23-year-olds that come out with no drive, no compete and no desire but still put up 20 goals? Or are they just wearing orange and black? Until Laughton actually plays in the NHL, the 23-year-old who just scored 20 goals while being bounced around the lineup has achieved more and, quite frankly, IMO still projects higher. YMMV - which is completely fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terp Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I have a feeling Brayden Schenn is going to turn out to be a lot better than he is now and that he almost certainly needs to be moved in order for that to happen. The Flyers know this too and while maybe he was in their plans if they were able to move VLC over the summer, but with their commitments to Couturier and probably Laughton (who is looking like an upgrade to Schenn in most respects), I don't know why they wouldn't move Schenn for a good return that helped now or later (though I tend to think if they trade him anytime between now and the deadline they will be looking for help now). They have lots of needs and they can afford to do without a talented forward who they necessarily have to play out of position for the foreseeable future, as long as the return is very good, as it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilsFanDrew Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Unless the trade is for a young defensive talent in a similar situation who hasn't fully developed but has NHL experience or a high 1st round pick next year who will make the team and have immediate impact in year one then you keep B. Schenn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGreatGazoo Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Everytime I see the title of this thread I think to myself.."Luke and Brayden have a brother? And when did the Flyers get him!?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Everytime I see the title of this thread I think to myself.."Luke and Brayden have a brother? And when did the Flyers get him!?" I understand where this is coming from and I'm a bit on board with it myself. But... just how many 23-year-olds score 20 in this league? Especially unmotivated, floating, undedicated, lacking desire 23-year-olds? And why is it that the Flyers appear to be SO inept at actually motivating or developing the ones they get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGreatGazoo Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 My issue with Brayden is his lack of effort, of his apparent lack of effort, for extended periods of time. I agree with everyone on here arguing about his youth and not giving up on him yet. Though I still don't see much improvement with him yet. Numbers not withstanding....The one reason I entertain the idea of trading him is because he's an asset that could help them acquire pieces they need. I was not opposed to trading JVR. I think the flyers did not get value for him. My hope is that if Schenn is traded. Hextall sells high and makes the loss of him easier to take due to the windfall in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakanekimiwa Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 There are many problems with this... at this particular moment. Shopping Schenn now is likely to not return top value. The Flyer's have essentially demoted him and so I would think his perceived value has taken a hit as well. There's enough comparisons out there to show that Schenn is progressing at about the same pace as JVR and even Carter, so it's definitely early to dump such a young potential. I really believe that Hextall would like to build 'his' team and not just make due with what Homer has dumped him, so it does make sense on that end. I'd bet almost everyone is fair game if he's looking at a 3-5 year window to have a real contender. Because of this, put me into the category of being OK with waiting and letting Hexy do his thing. It will be worth it if he brings us a cup in the next decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 My issue with Brayden is his lack of effort, of his apparent lack of effort, for extended periods of time. I agree with everyone on here arguing about his youth and not giving up on him yet. Though I still don't see much improvement with him yet. Numbers not withstanding....The one reason I entertain the idea of trading him is because he's an asset that could help them acquire pieces they need. I was not opposed to trading JVR. I think the flyers did not get value for him. My hope is that if Schenn is traded. Hextall sells high and makes the loss of him easier to take due to the windfall in return.I agree with about all of this, but it doesn't address the main issue of the Flyers' apparent ineptitude at developing young players - to say nothing of acquiring them in the first place.Nor the disturbing tendency of young 20 goal scorers to apparently be floating listless bums.I'd trade anyone for value at this point. But at one time Schenn was "value" and if the Flyers are incapable of recognizing or developing value, it won't matter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 and if the Flyers are incapable of developing value, it won't matter... You keep referencing this concern, and it bothers the hell out of me; mostly, because it's completely valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 It's a very small sample size (about 6% of the season), but Brayden Schenn is on pace for 55 points (19g, 36a). It doesn't mean much right now, but it's something. It's also only 6 points short (61p) of what JVR put up when he was 23. Schenn put up 20g, 21a (41pts) at 22 years old. Guess who put up 19g, 22a (41pts) at 22 years old? Evander Kane. Yes, he's got a 30 goal season, but that's an outlier. He's never cracked even 20 in any other season. And his production (PPG) has declined in 3 straight seasons. It seems more like it's the expectations of what Schenn is *supposed* to be that don't match what Schenn actually is, even though he's a pretty decent hockey player in his own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 It seems more like it's the expectations of what Schenn is *supposed* to be that don't match what Schenn actually is, even though he's a pretty decent hockey player in his own right Yeah, I find the hate for him a bit much. I'd trade him if he was part of a package that saw his brother leave with him and brought us a top-6 forward (winger). Otherwise, keep him, push to him to improve and be more consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 You keep referencing this concern, and it bothers the hell out of me; mostly, because it's completely valid. The grass is always greener, the grapes are probably sour and those two birds in the bush are worth far more than the one we have in hand. #flyerstalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 and brought us a top-6 forward (winger). I'm not sure I understand this - isn't that what B Schenn is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I'm not sure I understand this - isn't that what B Schenn is? A better one I guess is what I mean. Hell, who knows what I mean. How are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 A better one I guess is what I mean. Hell, who knows what I mean. How are you? Haha, the sheep giving you a hard time again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I'm not sure I understand this - isn't that what B Schenn is? I think maybe the pivotal word is "winger." I think if we could move him for a natural scoring winger...sniper type (you know, like Jeff Carter). But I honestly don't think Schenn gets you that. I think Schenn could be a top six winger, but the bouncing back and forth all over the place cannot be helping him. I don't think I'd be shopping him, but if he is required to get the top pick or a sniper type winger (so we can complain about them not playing in the defensive end) or a top pair dman, then I go ahead and do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 The grass is always greener, the grapes are probably sour and those two birds in the bush are worth far more than the one we have in hand. #flyerstalk Bingo. The guy is still finding his way, scores at the same level as Vinnie (for half the money) and should get better as he figures out where the hell the Flyers actually want him to play. Lets get rid of that for a guy who hopefully becomes that in a few years. I'm all for trading the Schenns for Edmontons first pick and either a shot at Mcdavid or another bluechip prospect. But why would Edmonton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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