Flyers shopping The Good Schenn

[King Knut]

Truer words were never typed.

They're not hockey players. They look as bad as the opening of last year.

Well now... After watching the first period it does not matter who is on offense bc this defense gets worse with every passing minute... God are the terrible...

[ruxpin]

You know what? Trade any if them. I don't care. These aren't hockey players. This isn't a hockey coach. This is pathetic. They're completely lost and Berube has no answers.

 

 

It's really hard to watch.

 

It really isn't even keeping my attention.  It's painful.

[hf101]

I wish they would quit shopping and trade off one of our d-men at a bargain.

[murraycraven]

Mason is playing poorly, and the forwards aren't finishing checks either.

Rinaldo did pressure the D into an icing though.

Chicago is putting on a passing clinic, hope the Flyers are paying attention.

Sorry doom but I disagree... That game without Mason would have looked like a football score

[radoran]

@ Radoran

 

By that logic Radoran then lets put Gagne on the line with Giroux and see how HE does... Could you imagine a pure sniper of Gags quality on Girouxs left side beings Giroux is right handed and Gags is a lefty. That would be pretty sick...Last time I checked Giroux is and was a much better passer then Preems and ill take your Recchi and raise you a Voracheck.

 

Gagne-Giroux-Voracheck = I will take that two-way scoring line any day...

 

Yeah, I thought they should have brought him back last year, too.

 

But, let's not pretend that 2014 Gagne is the same as 2001 Gagne.

 

And I'm hoping that Voracek turns into a 77 point player (as Recchi was in the example).

 

He just isn't yet.

[King Knut]

The only thing i keep telling myself is that they looked exactly this bad last year and only just at this point got their first points.

Only Shultz and Grossman are just so brutal this year. Like blindingly horrifically brutal. I can't even think about it.

Last year though there was the crappy camp and the coaching transition to blame. I have no idea what to blame noting this year. How does a professional hockey team show up so utterly unprepared to play hockey?

It's really hard to watch.

It really isn't even keeping my attention. It's painful.

[brelic]

I realize that drive in and of itself at some point has to come from within and it's not up to a coach or organization.  But does this organization currently have the stomach or the ability to inspire that in their players?   Carter and Richie were party animals (so the story goes--soon to be a Lifetime Movie) so instead of figuring out a way to nurture and reinforce "acceptable behavior" and focus, they traded them away as they were about to hit their prime (I'm not trying to revisit those trades, only bringing it up in this specific context).  I did not like JVR, but again, they have a 2nd overall draft pick who did show flashes or stretches of being really very good but was also stricken with lack of focus and consistency.  School him?  Patiently wait for him to mature?  Help him along?  No idea what goes on behind the scenes, but  from the outside the answer is: no, they traded him as he was about to enter the best part of his career.   Now Schenn.

 

The Flyers are not unique in having young players who like to party. That's a pretty common situation for guys in their early 20s who are handed millions of dollars, have thousands of fans cheering them every night, and are thrust into the media spotlight. 

 

Patrick Kane's partying got out of control. Chicago handled it, and he is a better player for it, and they are a better team for it.

 

Tyler Seguin's partying was out of control, too, apparently. Boston's response was to trade him. I personally think it was a mistake and would be disappointed if the Flyers had given up on a guy with Seguin's talent because of partying.

 

Evander Kane also has a bit of an attitude problem. Not sure how things are there, but I think he wants out. I haven't really seen or read anything about how the Jets are handling the situation, but he's still a Jet, and there would be no shortage of suitors, I'm sure. So far, they think keeping him makes more sense.

 

And then there's the Flyers, who systematically dismantled their entire core and team because of a partying problem. Lupul was the first to go. Then Upshall. Then Richards. Then Carter. And the last one was Hartnell. 

 

I honestly wish I didn't know any of the stuff I posted above, because at the end of the day, I don't care. Social media is terrible for that kind of useless stuff. You can't unsee some things! I just want to see a competitive Flyers team on the ice, and I would underscore, bold, and italicize TEAM. I want to see guys fight for each other, even (or especially) when they lose more than they win. For better or worse, those "partiers" we had had formed a very tight bond and played for each other. 

[brelic]

How does a professional hockey team show up so utterly unprepared to play hockey?

 

I think what we're seeing is that the Flyers are just not a very good hockey team - which I certainly expected and I think most others here too. I have them missing the playoffs, and many others see them on the bubble. 

 

It's not fun, though. I tuned out after the 1st last night. 

[King Knut]

I'm sorry, it's just not computing in my head how they could be SO much worse than last year.

How is Homer allowed to roam free on this earth let alone still get paid to have anything to do with the Flyers? Why do they love him so much?

He was a mediocre (at best) coach and worked extremely hard at dismantling a cup finalist team and turning it into what we've got here.

I think what we're seeing is that the Flyers are just not a very good hockey team - which I certainly expected and I think most others here too. I have them missing the playoffs, and many others see them on the bubble.

It's not fun, though. I tuned out after the 1st last night.

[Philly29]

@ Radoran

 

I was talking about 2001 Gagne........

[radoran]

@ Radoran

 

I was talking about 2001 Gagne........

 

And I was saying that giving Schenn the same situation Gagne was in - with a consistent role and consistent linemates - is necessary to make any sort of direct comparison.

 

Nevertheless, the numbers hold up pretty well in comparison, up to this point in their respective careers - at which point Gagne had a consistent role and consistent, skilled linemates.

 

Schenn was put on the wing of a 29yo rookie who had never played center before.

 

Hardly the same thing at all.

[brelic]

I'm sorry, it's just not computing in my head how they could be SO much worse than last year.

How is Homer allowed to roam free on this earth let alone still get paid to have anything to do with the Flyers? Why do they love him so much?

He was a mediocre (at best) coach and worked extremely hard at dismantling a cup finalist team and turning it into what we've got here.

 

 

Well, on defense, they lost Timonen, and they are playing without Coburn - their #1 and #2 from last season.

 

They lost Hartnell's sandpaper in favour of Umberger's versatility - let's call it a wash.

 

And the top 9 forwards are mainly the same. VLC who played well in the first few games, is out. And we have a guy with a total of 6 NHL games centering our 2nd line.

 

Last year they started, what, 1-7? We're 1-3-2, which is already better than last year.

 

But in the long term, I think we are a slightly worse team on the ice this year than last year mostly due to the loss of Timonen in favour of Del Zotto/Schultz.

[ruxpin]

The Flyers are not unique in having young players who like to party. That's a pretty common situation for guys in their early 20s who are handed millions of dollars, have thousands of fans cheering them every night, and are thrust into the media spotlight. 

 

Patrick Kane's partying got out of control. Chicago handled it, and he is a better player for it, and they are a better team for it.

 

Tyler Seguin's partying was out of control, too, apparently. Boston's response was to trade him. I personally think it was a mistake and would be disappointed if the Flyers had given up on a guy with Seguin's talent because of partying.

 

Evander Kane also has a bit of an attitude problem. Not sure how things are there, but I think he wants out. I haven't really seen or read anything about how the Jets are handling the situation, but he's still a Jet, and there would be no shortage of suitors, I'm sure. So far, they think keeping him makes more sense.

 

And then there's the Flyers, who systematically dismantled their entire core and team because of a partying problem. Lupul was the first to go. Then Upshall. Then Richards. Then Carter. And the last one was Hartnell. 

 

I honestly wish I didn't know any of the stuff I posted above, because at the end of the day, I don't care. Social media is terrible for that kind of useless stuff. You can't unsee some things! I just want to see a competitive Flyers team on the ice, and I would underscore, bold, and italicize TEAM. I want to see guys fight for each other, even (or especially) when they lose more than they win. For better or worse, those "partiers" we had had formed a very tight bond and played for each other. 

 

Completely agree.  Absolutely other teams have partiers, unfocused players, problem children, etc.

 

Most of them find a way to deal with it, improve it, fix it, whatever.  Not the Flyers.  Will this improve under a new GM or is it up and down the coaching staff and throughout the organization?  If it's the GM, terrific.  But I guess what I'm wondering is if the organization is incapable of nurturing youth along.  I'm really suspecting it does come from Clarke and Holmgren with a "just suck it up  and play dammit" attitude.  You really could go back to Lindros with it.

[Podein25]

I'm really suspecting it does come from Clarke and Holmgren with a "just suck it up  and play dammit" attitude.  You really could go back to Lindros with it.

 

 

I'm not sure I understand your point re Clarke. How does his attitude create unfocused problem players?

 

He hardly drank, swam miles a day and played every shift like it was his last. With the exception of some Europeans, every Flyer player is aware of his reputation as a player, even if it was a long time ago. 

 

Perhaps I misunderstand your point somehow....

[jammer2]

  The talk of B.Schenn and Coburn (or any other regular Flyers defensemen for that matter) for Edmonton's first pick next year is compete and total poppycock. Every team is gonna be in on the bidding for that pick. Think rip apart your roster at the core and than add some. The packages offered for that pick will be out of this world.

[Bakanekimiwa]

Of course I focused heavily on Schenn last night in light of recent discussions about him. And my oh my.. he was just terrible last night. On one shift I saw him make 3 critical mistakes resulting in 3 turnovers. In ONE shift. Luckily... that time, it didn't result in a goal, but he's actually bringing down Simmonds and Read now. 

[jammer2]

@Bakanekimiwa  I found the same thing bak...the more I watched him close, the more horrified I became....not a good outing by any means for Brayden.

[Bakanekimiwa]

@Bakanekimiwa  I found the same thing bak...the more I watched him close, the more horrified I became....not a good outing by any means for Brayden.

 

That sequence I mentioned was particularly bad, but it has further implications. 3 turnovers simply killed any zone breakout, which obviously keeps our F's hemmed into our own zone. Everyone gets tired out and the end result is usually a penalty at best, goal at worst. 

 

The third turnover was a failed attempt to get the line change they sorely needed. He turns it over in the neutral zone and they only got half a line change. Basically... he's just creating chaos out there and I mean it when I say he's bringing down Simmonds and Read. 

 

Where has Simmonds gone lately!? No points, no nothing. He's covering for how bad Schenn is playing. 

[radoran]

@Bakanekimiwa  I found the same thing bak...the more I watched him close, the more horrified I became....not a good outing by any means for Brayden.

 

Honestly, I thought he looked horrible as well.

 

But when the whole team is looking like a monkey humping a football, it's hard to put a real finger on one player.

 

I do think that under a serious "system" coach - not a first time NHL guy - these players would all be much better off. They look lost out there.

 

As it is "move your feet and pressure the puck" simply isn't a "system" that's going to work in the modern NHL.

 

Where has Simmonds gone lately!? No points, no nothing. He's covering for how bad Schenn is playing. 

 

As much as I like Simmonds, his opportunities this season have been of the "right place right time" variety on the power play. He really hasn't been a force at 5v5.

[ruxpin]

I'm not sure I understand your point re Clarke. How does his attitude create unfocused problem players?

 

He hardly drank, swam miles a day and played every shift like it was his last. With the exception of some Europeans, every Flyer player is aware of his reputation as a player, even if it was a long time ago. 

 

Perhaps I misunderstand your point somehow....

 

This was the entire quote:

 "But I guess what I'm wondering is if the organization is incapable of nurturing youth along.  I'm really suspecting it does come from Clarke and Holmgren with a "just suck it up  and play dammit" attitude.  You really could go back to Lindros with it."

 

At no time did I come close to saying his attitude created unfocused problem players.

 

The discussion was whether the Flyers' organization has a complete lack of ability to take an unfocused problem player and nurture him to something better or at least have patience to wait for them to grow hair in special places.   Answer:  It does not have either the ability or the patience.

 

Second question was whether this was simply a GM thing and might get better with Hextall in charge OR if it was more ingrained in the organization than that.  I would argue it's the latter and Clarke's "just suck it up and play dammit" is emblematic of that.  But I think that attitude has permeated up and down the staff.  Really, just kind of asking which it comes from:  Holmgren or elsewhere.  

[jammer2]

@radoran  The one thing I find that moves me towards moving Brayden...he's not the kinda guy you want to go to war with. I don't think that has anything to do with his youth...it's not something you develop, it's inbred in you, your willingness to put your body on the line for the greater good. I don't see it with Brayden, and that's the #1 reason to get what you can for him right now.

[Podein25]

@ruxpin

 

Ok thanks.

 

Well, there seems to be a disconnect between:

 

A. the perception among players that Philly is a great place to be, great team to play for, a class act organization that players want to go to and want to return to after leaving, because of the way they are treated (supported etc);

 

B. the culture you describe as the potential problem.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about A. I don't know. 

 

More importantly, what's wrong with "suck it up and play"? You have a hangnail? Too bad, go earn the ridiculous money we are paying you! 

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

 

Ok thanks.

 

Well, there seems to be a disconnect between:

 

A. the perception among players that Philly is a great place to be, great team to play for, a class act organization that players want to go to and want to return to after leaving, because of the way they are treated (supported etc);

 

B. the culture you describe as the potential problem.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about A. I don't know. 

 

More importantly, what's wrong with "suck it up and play"? You have a hangnail? Too bad, go earn the ridiculous money we are paying you! 

 

Yeah, there is the perception you describe in A.

 

Yet we run all the kids out of town.

 

Someone else listed problem children on other teams.   Kane, for example.  Somehow he's still there and has two rings.   They didn't lock him in a basement or take away his XBox or anything, but somehow they got him to tone it down just a tad.  I swear to God the Flyers would have traded him for Sergei Gonchar before he ever had the chance.   I'm not talking about injuries or collapsed lungs or hangnails, but somehow the Flyers working with kids to get them to where they need to be rather than "**** it.  Get your ass out there and play harder and blah blah blah, you whiney little bastard, or we'll trade you to Toronto with the rest of the imbeciles."

[jammer2]

@ruxpin   I think Snider and company would have overreacted to the cabbie beating and moved him right there and then.....and yeah, we would have gotten taken to the cleaners because we were would have been the ones pressing during the trade. I can just picture Ed sticking his nose in..."this is unacceptable"....but here we are, years later and he's not a model citizen, but the off ice stuff has not had a bearing on his career.

[radoran]

I swear to God the Flyers would have traded him for Sergei Gonchar before he ever had the chance.

 

@ruxpin   I think Snider and company would have overreacted to the cabbie beating and moved him right there and then.....and yeah, we would have gotten taken to the cleaners because we were would have been the ones pressing during the trade. I can just picture Ed sticking his nose in..."this is unacceptable"....but here we are, years later and he's not a model citizen, but the off ice stuff has not had a bearing on his career.

 

Kane would have been run out of town by the media, fanbase and organization.

 

And people would be complaining about how we got screwed out of JVR.