They're going to do something stupid

[icehole]

One more thing I wanted to mention.  If Coots does those shootout moves in the shootout for the rest of the season and Giroux does his 10 dekes, the flyers might not win a shootout all season.  If nobody has noticed (from what I gather nobody has), the shootout is about picking your corners on wrist shots, not super dekes.  How many shootout goals are from straight up shots compared to razzle dazzle.

[ruxpin]

[ruxpin]

One more thing I wanted to mention.  If Coots does those shootout moves in the shootout for the rest of the season and Giroux does his 10 dekes, the flyers might not win a shootout all season.  If nobody has noticed (from what I gather nobody has), the shootout is about picking your corners on wrist shots, not super dekes.  How many shootout goals are from straight up shots compared to razzle dazzle.

 

 

No idea. Let's ask Pavel Datsyuk.

[radoran]

I meant Bobby Clarke referring to the affection from the fan base not playing style.

I have no particular "affection" for the player and would have no problem moving him.

The team dealt away a 2nd overall and got fleeced for it. If you want a disppointment for draft position look at Luke Schenn.

After next season he's still RFA - you can qualify him at the same number as this year.

[ruxpin]

 How many shootout goals are from straight up shots compared to razzle dazzle.

 

https://blackbluegold.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/vulgar-statistics-the-shootout-project/

 

Overall:

• Shooting: 552 attempts, 160 goals (28.99%)  Miss – 14.5%
• Deking: 716 attempts, 239 goals (33.38%)  Miss – 16.1%

My theory was that with NHL-caliber shots and goaltender reflexes that can only be so good, that shooting would prove to be a better option in the shootout.  I was wrong and in hindsight it makes sense.  You gain more in opening up larger windows to put the puck than you lose in potentially making an error stick-handling and shooting players were only slightly less likely to miss the net than deking players were to lose the puck.

 

Hand Breakdown:

Obviously left handed (blocker) goalie sample size was a little lacking which accounts for the skewed numbers for left handed shots vs. left handed goalies, but otherwise I was surprised at how close the numbers were.  I would have thought that either same hand or opposite hand matchups would have an advantage over the other, but they really didn’t.

[ruxpin]

What's the best way to deal with a shootout?

 

Avoid it altogether.  

[King Knut]

I know you're bowing out of the Coots debate so I'll keep this hypothetical.

 

Is it really your thesis that any player who is probably not going to win a Hart Trophy, Art Ross Trophy, Norris Trophy or Selkie Trophy is not valuable to his team and worth holding on to?

 

And also... the "few" times the Flyers play the penguins every year = 6 -13 games.  The first 6 are definite and are worth up to 12 points, but their in - division game so in fact, there's really 24 points on the line there. 

Only 4 points separated the Flyers and DNQ in the playoffs last year.

 

Also, also, the way the playoffs work now, there's an extremely high probability that if the Flyers are to make it to the conference finals ever again, they will probably have to beat the Penguins at some point in the playoffs.  Which would account for the last 4-7 games I mentioned above. 

 

To me that suggests any player who is extremely effective against the Penguins is therefore still an extremely effective chess piece for this team and if he plays better against the penguins than anyone else, then that alone makes him more valuable to the Flyers.

 

 

 

It scares me to see a majority of fans and parts of the organization defending "Coots" like he's Bobby Clarke out there. I'll back out of this argument because I won't change anyone's mind. Just keep your eyes on him though and think of me when he falls on his face. You can also think of me when he wins the league MVP or the Selkie (sp?). You win that when your TEAM shuts down Pittsburgh a few times a year right?

So who else would you try to move to make a difference on this team?

[flyercanuck]

@icehole A few days ago someone mentioned Couturier was a bad pick at 8th overall. I listed every player taken prior to him at the 8th spot, and had to go back almost 25 years to find a player who was clearly better, though Couturier has many years ahead of him. There were plenty of outright busts- meaning never made the NHL. Maybe you don't like him and that's fine. But trading him for a 2nd is selling way too low.

[mojo1917]

@icehole

 

so glad you aren't running the team .

 

A lot of guys in #14's draft class aren't even in the NHL yet, Our talentless bum somehow managed to make the team as an 18 year old out of his first NHL camp.

You want to tell me  he's a below average skater, I won't argue.  I happen to think he has pretty high hockey IQ though and will argue he hasn't ever had the linemates and opportunity for that to manifest itself offensively.

Show me a player that hasn't ever been faked out by a great move, and i'll show you a guy that doesn't play defense well.

 

I won't even say Couturier's untradeable, if the right deal comes along, you make it, but a second round pick ? 

that's silly.

 

He will never be "fast" but he can work on his quickness, he has been, I think he can be a 50+ pt two way player without improving his skating.  

We see thing differently for sure.

 

EDIT: I didn't see you're all done... sorry for the pile on.

[King Knut]

He wasn't on the PP because he already played more minutes than any forward not named Jake or G when he wasn't on the PP.

Forwards tend to top out at around 20-22 minutes per game.   Coots plays about 19.  Giroux about 22.  Jake plays just over 19. 

In comparison, Simmonds plays 17.5 per game, B. Schenn 17, Raffl 15, and Umberger 14.

 

In addition to that, Coots plays more shorthanded minutes than any forward on the team period and plays more shifts per game than any forward besides Giroux.

 

Why is Coots out there so much?  Because Coots hits the ice whenever the opposition puts out their best buys, and teams like to put their best lines out on the ice as much as possible (i.e. why Giroux leads the Flyers forwards in minutes).  Again, league wide, teams like to put their best players on the ice as much as possible.

 

So to bring this post full circle, I think it's worth noting that Coots is literally on the ice more than any single Flyer Forward who ISN'T in contention for the Hart or Art Ross Trophy right now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Was there a reason he wasn't on the PP?  Do you think he's really good on the PP in practice but Chief has it out for him so he punishes him by putting him in a defensive role?  I'm sure they don't see great offensive abilities from him and that's why he's not on the PP.

You can't say he's putting up points when he has 2 points in 5 games and those 2 came from the last two games.  He had 8 points in 23 games...that's a sample size you can use.

[icehole]

I believe that any player that isn't worthy of those awards should not be talked about like he won that award.  I'm not just talking about the people on here but all of the commentators talk about him as much as Crosby.  If he was a young kid trying to secure a spot in the league and he blends into the background of the game, I'd have no problem with him.  This argument all started because the OP said they might do something stupid.  Maybe I imagined it but I thought someone mentioned trading Coots would be stupid.  I've heard his name as being untouchable.  That triggers two things for me.  1)  I pick on his faults to hold him to this high standard that everyone holds him to and 2)  I wonder what value he has since everyone is so high on him.

I'm just tired of hearing about his success against the Penguins.  Name another player from another team that he has shut down.  The flyers haven't won that many games this season so nobody is really getting shut down.  I heard him being praised for shutting down Malkin in the last game.  Malkin had at least 3 good scoring chances in that game including hitting the post.  I didn't see him being shut down...he just didn't score.

Don't worry about those other 7 games.  If Coots can only shut down the penguins, that leaves the flyers way short of making the playoffs.

[icehole]

Wait a second, if Voracek and Giroux have more minutes than Coots, why are they on the powerplay and he isn't?  If the Flyers get 3 PPs, he would be on the ice an extra 3 minutes max.  At 22, that won't kill him.

If he isn't out there on the PP because they need him on the 30th ranked PK (that might be slightly better now), they have bigger problems than I thought.

[Podein25]

@icehole

 

I have no intentions of piling on here, but I think the thing that strikes hockey people about Cooter is that he is mature beyond his years at aspects of the game that it takes "normal" players, and even offensive stars, years to learn.

 

The way I usually express this, and I can only speak for myself, is that he is rarely on the wrong side of the puck. To some people, this just means he is playing defensively or cautious - "anybody can do that!" 

 

But it's not that simple. It's his positioning, his hockey intelligence/IQ, his sense of what's happening on the ice. 

 

He's been typecast as a defensive specialist as a result - and used almost exclusively that way. Until recently, hardly any PP time. I reserve my criticism to the two things he himself can control: 1) he needs to work on his skating (foot speed); 2) he needs to work on his shot (quickness of release, and strength of shot). If he doesn't start to show this, I will have to re-evaluate how I value his potential.

[Mad Dog]

Brind'Amour wasn't fast or a good skater - far from it.  Neither were Handzus or Joel Otto.  Yet they thrived in the NHL.

 

Look at the best shut-down forwards today: Marcus Kruger, Eric Haula, Ryan O'Reilly, and the list goes on... What these players all have in common is none of them will ever win the fastest skater award... EVER.  Yet, they are instrumental to each of their team's functions.  And none of these guys have a skillset Couts has.

 

I am really not sure why he is not scoring more goals.  It's a mistery to me, quite frankly.  But geez, people, he is 22 years old, and this is his what.... 3rd full NHL season?  And you already want to get him out of town...

 

What is the urgency to start a firesale?  This season is a toast.  They are dead in the water.  The defense is atroceous. We have $10 mil tied up in two players who are not contributing ANYTHING to the team.  And you want to get rid of a 22-year old?  That will sure solve our problems once for all.

 

You know, it's not surprsing to me now why the Flyers have always been so brutally impatient and haven't won anything in almost 40 years. They feed off the fanbase.

[radoran]

Name another player from another team that he has shut down. The flyers haven't won that many games this season so nobody is really getting shut down.

 

I've given you his stats against last year's playoff teams and this year's current playoff teams (Eastern Conference).

 

Malkin had at least 3 good scoring chances in that game including hitting the post. I didn't see him being shut down...he just didn't score.

 

I've said the same thing about Couturier WRT to "shutting down" Malkin, but the facts of the matter are that Malkin is going to get his chances regardless of who is defending him.

 

He had no goals. What more do you want?

 

It's like when a shot hits the post. Goalies say "what? you want me to stop the ones that aren't going in, too?"

 

You want him to do better than holding a player like Malkin scoreless?

[flyercanuck]

Different game back then. but in Couturiers defence as far as points go....His linemates suck?

[icehole]

His stats?  When the other team scores, our D sucks but when they don't score, Coots shut them down right?

What more do I want?  I want him to limit chances.  I don't care what goalies say about post shots.  We all know any shot that hits the post is just luck if it doesn't go in.  If Malkin is getting prime scoring chances and hits the post, I don't like our chances.

[Podein25]

Eric Haula

 

 

Are you confusing him with someone else on the Wild, cause he can flat-out fly?

[radoran]

His stats? When the other team scores, our D sucks but when they don't score, Coots shut them down right?

 

First of all, I don't use the whole "Coots" thing, so you can run along with that.

 

Secondly, using the same stat you used to criticize him I have shown you that he is effective against playoff level competition.

What more do I want? I want him to limit chances. I don't care what goalies say about post shots. We all know any shot that hits the post is just luck if it doesn't go in. If Malkin is getting prime scoring chances and hits the post, I don't like our chances.

 

And I'm saying he did limit the chances (Malkin has points this season against every team he's played against except Winnipeg).

 

If you expect that anyone can "shut Malkin down" and hold him off the scoresheet every time they play the Pens, you are going to be disappointed every time.

 

The same game Malkin had his "chances" and an assist earlier this season? He was -1.

 

Couturier had a goal, two assists and was +2.

[icehole]

I got criticized for spelling his name wrong so instead of getting yelled at by the spelling police, I'm going with Coots.

We can use +/- but I was told that was a useless stat.  If you do want to use it, I guess your stats say that he plays pretty well against playoff level competition.  What are his stats against non playoff competition?  Even though -10 may not seem that bad, I look at +/- combined with points.  If a guy is -20 but scores 40 goals with 20 assists in a season, I look at that as a +40 for him.  To me, his defense isn't making up for his lack of offense.  My eyes tell me that his defense isn't even that good.

[radoran]

We can use +/- but I was told that was a useless stat. If you do want to use it, I guess your stats say that he plays pretty well against playoff level competition.

 

I never told you it was a useless stat. I told you it wasn't supporting your argument. Several times.

 

Because it's not and still isn't.

 

That said, using your own benchmark of the Pens game this season, Couturier had a goal, two assists and was +2 while Malkin had an assist and was -1. Couturier tripled Malkin's point total and was +3 in comparison and you're focused on "chances" that didn't go in.

 

Which is perfectly fine for you to do.

 

It's just not very convincing.

[icehole]

That's the problem...I don't want to use the 1 Pens game as a benchmark.  Everyone is saying that Malkin was shut down but he really wasn't.  If Coutourier outscored Malkin in that game, I guess he had a good game offensively.  I didn't see it defensively that game but that's only the feeling I got when I was holding my breath and sighing after Malkin's good chances.  I definitely wasn't saying "where's Malkin been tonight?"

I am using the first 1/4 of the season as a benchmark.  If coutourier had 3 pts that night back in October I think it was, that means he has 7 points since.  Up until 3 nights ago, he only had 5 points since that game.  Am I crazy or is that not good for a 4th year #8 overall pick?  Is that "untouchable" territory?  You may not have said that but others have.

[icehole]

Edit:

Im not even sure he didn't have more than three points after that Pens game.  He may have had a couple of points before that game which would make him have less than 7 points since October.

[radoran]

Is that "untouchable" territory? You may not have said that but others have.

 

I've said, repeatedly, that I'd deal Couturier for the right deal.

 

A Top Two defenseman or an established Top Six forward, for example.

 

As it is, I'm fine with a 22yo making $1.75M this year and next, who will be an RFA at the end of it.

 

YMMV, which is perfectly cromulent.

[ruxpin]

If a guy is -20 but scores 40 goals with 20 assists in a season, I look at that as a +40 for him

 

I don't understand this.  It's still a -20.   The -20 means he was on ice for 20 MORE goals against than goals for. Pretending all of that is even strength (complete fantasyland, admittedly, but for argument-sake), it would mean that this guy was on the ice for 80 goals against.  That's 1/game.

 

In Coots case (I don't mind using "Coots"), since he's only been on for 10 goals against (even strength) in 25 games (.4/game) his defense is making up for his offense probably a lot more.

 

The pretend guy:  .875 Pts/G.   1 GA/G.

Couturier (Coots):  .4 Pts/G.  .4 GA/G.   

 

The pretend guy is allowing more per game than getting whereas Couturier/Coots is breaking even.   At 21.  Against top players.  With anvils on his line.