Should Fyers trade for Cody Franson

[RonJeremy]

A few years agon when Nashville was offerring up Franson I posted here that we should get him and was immediately shot down. The Leafs got him and he has put up some good numbers 6 goals 23 assists and a - 7 on the crappy Leafs team. He is a righty and has a good shot. The Leafs want a second rounder. I think we should go after him and unload some of our guys like Coburn and Grossman for starters. Or better yet trade Coburn  to the Leafs for Franson and their second round pick. We need a young dman with a few years experience to blend in with our up and coming kids. I also think Del Z and Franson on the PP would be nice

[JackStraw]

No. Flyers should be sellers, not buyers. Patience should be the plan. Wehave the prospects and they should start arriving soon.

[briere48]

heck no, he's too big, i want smaller/mobile defensemen.

[murraycraven]

Simply put: no

[RonJeremy]

@JackStraw...  I agree we should be sellers,  I think we will unload several of our defenseman and that will create spots, but  in all honesty how many of our young dmen do you actually see making the team next year?  Haag maybe, but thats probaly it for now. Ghost lost a year of development, Morin will probably need at least  half a season in the minors and Sanheim is a few years away.  So do you really think Flyers management is going to write off next year too and not try and improve the short term defense? We will suck next year too unless we improve the defense.  Our young kids are the long term plan.  We are still going to need guys on the blueline who are young ,but have several years experience and can play solid minutes, none of the kids are coming in and playing big minutes.  Getting a guy like Franson makes perfect sense, who is supposed to play defense for the next 2-3 years while we wait for the kids to make an impact. We didnt draft Ray Bourque and Denis Potvin who are going to step in and be stars. Are we gonna waste 3 years of girouxs prime waiting for some young kids?  I dont think so. If a guy like Franson is avaialble for a second rounder , to me thats a good deal.

[Podein25]

I'm not sold on Franson, certainly not for a second (which we don't have anyway).

[ruxpin]

I actually don't like Franson, so no thank you. And add in the Leafs stink and it's a hell no.

[RonJeremy]

I still believe that we will dump a number of our defensemen and we most certainly will  make a trade for a defensman that is young but with several years NHL experience. Even if 3 of our 4 kids somehow made the the team next year, its still gonna be at least 3 years before they make an impact. We  still need another young skilled NHL experienced guy to lead the defense. I still believe Coots or B Schenn go in a trade. With Laughton and Nick Cousins bth looking good , I can see a center going as part of a deal for defense. Sure we have lots of defenseman, lots of bad ones, and once some of them are dumped, Hexy will try to trade for a skilled defensman

[RonJeremy]

OK lets change the thread a bit... do we really think Hexy is going to go into next season without making a trade for a young skilled defensman? How can we possibly expect to contend if we go into next year with basically the same defense, minus Coburn and Grossman lets say... if our defense is not good enough this year, how will it be good enough next year?  I know Hexy wont trade for some over 30 dman, but I certainly see him going after a young quality dman. I just brought up Franson, because a second rounder is not alot considering his numbers and considering what we gave up for Grossman and Kubina and McDouchebag over the years.... Id rather pay Franson 3 million than Luke Schenn 4 million

[JackStraw]

@RonJeremy - According to TSN, Franson just turned down a contract extension of 3 years at $4M per year and is looking for both more years and more $$$ (supposedly around $6M). There is no way I want any part of that. I don't think he's that good.

 

If the Flyers are smart and lucky, they'll manage to trade Coburn and Grossman. That opens up 2 spots. One or two of Alt, Hagg, and Ghost could realistically make the Flyers next year. There is also Manning, who is having a very good year with the Phantoms and played well when he was called up. And there will always be another Nick Schultz type, a veteran free agent who can be signed for cheap for one year. It's not going to be a Cup winning defense but it will give Hextall flexibility when he needs it.

 

And no more trading away 2nd rounders.

[JackStraw]

How can we possibly expect to contend if we go into next year with basically the same defense, minus Coburn and Grossman lets say...

 

We will not contend next year. Period.

[ruxpin]

First, @JackStraw is right that we won't contend next year.

 

Two, I think Hextall will add to the defense provided he is able to dump some defensemen either at the deadline or during the offseason.  I just, frankly, don't want it to be Franson.  I don't see that much to like and would not want that kind of average at that kind of money.

 

We already have Schenn for our quota of lousy former-Leaf stink.

[ruxpin]

Having already pointed out that the Flyers don't have more or less non-North American defensemen than other teams, let's talk about size.

 

I just randomly took the top teams in the league and took averages of their age, height and weight to compare against the Flyers.   I also, for giggles, took the same for Buffalo and Edmonton because they suck.  Just to see if there was appreciable difference.  Height is in inches, weight in pounds.  I'll let you all be the judge:

 

 

 

I was curious, so I went through top pairs of the above teams.

Average height:  74.25

Average weight:   210.45

 

Flyers top pair height:  74

Flyers top pair weight:  205.5

(top pair used was Coburn & Streit.  YMMV)

 

The Flyers' height and weight don't really stand out.  Fairly average.

Their age, however, is higher than everyone on the chart except Montreal.  And a lot higher than everyone else except Chicago.

Maybe the Flyers' defense isn't too big or too small or too North American.  Maybe they're a little too old (average didn't even include Timo) and simply not good enough.

[briere48]

Having already pointed out that the Flyers don't have more or less non-North American defensemen than other teams, let's talk about size.

 

I just randomly took the top teams in the league and took averages of their age, height and weight to compare against the Flyers.   I also, for giggles, took the same for Buffalo and Edmonton because they suck.  Just to see if there was appreciable difference.  Height is in inches, weight in pounds.  I'll let you all be the judge:

 

 

 

I was curious, so I went through top pairs of the above teams.

Average height:  74.25

Average weight:   210.45

 

Flyers top pair height:  74

Flyers top pair weight:  205.5

(top pair used was Coburn & Streit.  YMMV)

 

The Flyers' height and weight don't really stand out.  Fairly average.

Their age, however, is higher than everyone on the chart except Montreal.  And a lot higher than everyone else except Chicago.

Maybe the Flyers' defense isn't too big or too small or too North American.  Maybe they're a little too old (average didn't even include Timo) and simply not good enough.

if you look at islanders, predators accept for webber, rangers, their d isnt very big, which is why they are so good because they are mobile/fast. if hexy got rid of berube, coburn, grossman, schenn, homer not resigning mcdud, getting rid of vinny, i think this team would probably be contenders.

[ruxpin]

 if hexy got rid of berube, coburn, grossman, schenn, homer not resigning mcdud, getting rid of vinny, i think this team would probably be contenders.

 

This is hard to disagree with. If you're blaming this on size, though, I'm not sure I agree but that's probably quibbling.

 

if you look at islanders, predators accept for webber, rangers, their d isnt very big, which is why they are so good because they are mobile/fast

 

I think with the Islanders, you're seizing on an outlier of the group.  Besides that, they haven't won anything (yet).  The chart clearly shows it's not size that's the issue.  And "except Weber" is excepting arguably their best defenseman so you're excepting something that would be diametrically in opposition to your initial claim of size.

 

What I will agree with you on is your focus on Coburn, Grossman and Schenn.   I don't think it's size that is the problem.  It's foot speed/quickness.  I think some would probably argue in agreement with you that big=clunky/slow.  It's not necessarily the case, as the average size in top pair was fairly uniform with the average size overall.  The odd part is that the average weight of the top pairs was higher.  Doing just the top pair for the above teams might have created too small a sampling which could explain the 4 lb. difference in average weight for the top pair vs. overall, but I didn't have time to do the whole league.   But I do think its edifying.

 

All of this to say that I do think the two generalizations we're left with regarding the Flyers' defense vs. the other teams are 1) age (although this, too,  could be eliminated given the Habs and the Hawks) and 2) slower/less talent.   The slower/less talent is a little harder to quantify, unfortunately.  

 

But I do think you want to replace Grossman and Schenn for smoother, quicker skaters probably.  Coburn is odd because he's fairly big and a smooth skater.  He's just not all that bright.

 

I went and did the data for the chart largely because I thought your hypothesis (size) might actually be plausible and thought I'd investigate.  The numbers just don't bear it out.   I really think we're unfortunately left with talent and quickness. 

[briere48]

This is hard to disagree with. If you're blaming this on size, though, I'm not sure I agree but that's probably quibbling.

 

 

 

 

I think with the Islanders, you're seizing on an outlier of the group.  Besides that, they haven't won anything (yet).  The chart clearly shows it's not size that's the issue.  And "except Weber" is excepting arguably their best defenseman so you're excepting something that would be diametrically in opposition to your initial claim of size.

 

What I will agree with you on is your focus on Coburn, Grossman and Schenn.   I don't think it's size that is the problem.  It's foot speed/quickness.  I think some would probably argue in agreement with you that big=clunky/slow.  It's not necessarily the case, as the average size in top pair was fairly uniform with the average size overall.  The odd part is that the average weight of the top pairs was higher.  Doing just the top pair for the above teams might have created too small a sampling which could explain the 4 lb. difference in average weight for the top pair vs. overall, but I didn't have time to do the whole league.   But I do think its edifying.

 

All of this to say that I do think the two generalizations we're left with regarding the Flyers' defense vs. the other teams are 1) age (although this, too,  could be eliminated given the Habs and the Hawks) and 2) slower/less talent.   The slower/less talent is a little harder to quantify, unfortunately.  

 

But I do think you want to replace Grossman and Schenn for smoother, quicker skaters probably.  Coburn is odd because he's fairly big and a smooth skater.  He's just not all that bright.

 

I went and did the data for the chart largely because I thought your hypothesis (size) might actually be plausible and thought I'd investigate.  The numbers just don't bear it out.   I really think we're unfortunately left with talent and quickness. 

 

 

yes i know the islanders have won anything yet but they are like rangers, they are very quick team, good goaltending, it's the things the flyers dont have is quickness but good goaltending. im just going by what good teams and what this team doesnt. about coburn he could be a fast skater but because of his size he really slows down we tries to catch up to the player, like timms he's very small but because of his size and quickness he can catch up to the player and swipe the puck. that's why he was such a good pk.

 

theres alot disadvances of having a big defensemen is how fast can they get back to play d.

[ruxpin]

yes i know the islanders have won anything yet but they are like rangers, they are very quick team, good goaltending, it's the things the flyers dont have is quickness but good goaltending. im just going by what good teams and what this team doesnt. about coburn he could be a fast skater but because of his size he really slows down we tries to catch up to the player, like timms he's very small but because of his size and quickness he can catch up to the player and swipe the puck. that's why he was such a good pk.

 

theres alot disadvances of having a big defensemen is how fast can they get back to play d.

 

I think we're seeing the same problem players but just blaming different attributes.  I honestly don't think Coburn lacks quickness (except above the neck).  My problem is that he very quickly gets to the wrong place.  

 

I think the Islander benefit from two things the Flyers don't have:   

1) A coach.  You alluded to this.  

2) I do think the Islanders are a quicker team on defense.  I don't think it's size.  I do, however, think it's a combination of more skill and the fact that the coach has them quickly going to better places and is teaching them to quickly make better decisions with the puck.

 

I'll give you this:  there's no arguing that Schenn and Grossman (in particular) are slow.   Grossman tries to compensate by blocking a lot of shots.  But a lot of blocked shots also means a lot of instances where he's not on his feet and sliding around or screening the goalie.  

 

I think you want some size in front to "clear the porch."  But you want size that is also able to skate and make smart, quick decisions.   The Flyers clearly don't have that.    

 

One thing I noticed while doing the "top pairing" sizes was that one was big and the other wasn't.  There really isn't a point to this last part other than it was interesting to me that that was fairly uniform.

[RonJeremy]

@JackStraw, If Franson is looking for 6 million, then that is way too much. Of course the biggest problem we have in trading for defense is, if McD got 5 million and Franson gets 6, what will it cost for a  #1 or #2 dman.The free agent defense market is always overpriced. Maybe we need to trade up to the #3 spot in the draft and get Noah Hanfin, he seems like the kind of dman who can step right in and is a potential franchise guy who would get a rookie contract.

 

P.S. you said Franson was Leafs stink, but hes a product of Nashville who have a great record of drafting defense, except for one failure Ryan Parent,,, the guy we traded for.

[flyercanuck]

OK lets change the thread a bit... do we really think Hexy is going to go into next season without making a trade for a young skilled defensman? How can we possibly expect to contend if we go into next year with basically the same defense, minus Coburn and Grossman lets say... if our defense is not good enough this year, how will it be good enough next year?  I know Hexy wont trade for some over 30 dman, but I certainly see him going after a young quality dman. I just brought up Franson, because a second rounder is not alot considering his numbers and considering what we gave up for Grossman and Kubina and McDouchebag over the years.... Id rather pay Franson 3 million than Luke Schenn 4 million

 

 

Contend? For what? This team is screwed until Umberger and VLC are gone. And our D. 

 

Franson is just more vanilla on the backend. And we'd have to give him his big payday. Sounds great to me...where can we sign so we can have 9 overpaid mediocre Dmen.

[ruxpin]

I said "Leafs stink."

I'm aware he was drafted by Nashville, but he's been in Toronto too long. Leafs stink.

But all of that is largely tongue in cheek. He really just isn't that good. And when you factor in what he's making (and worse, what he's asking for) there's no way I go anywhere near him.

Between Franson and Phaneuf I'll take Franson. But that's about all I'll give him.

[radoran]

@RonJeremy - According to TSN, Franson just turned down a contract extension of 3 years at $4M per year and is looking for both more years and more $$$ (supposedly around $6M). There is no way I want any part of that. I don't think he's that good.

 

Who does he think he is? Andrew MacDonald?

 

This is the problem with idiot GMs offering stupid contracts - they warp the entire fabric of the market.

 

If Andrew MacDonald (353 games, 19 g, 84 a, 103p, -19) is a $5M player (we know he isn't, but that's "market rate" for a player like him now) then what is Franson (372 games, 34g, 129a, 163p, +1) "worth"?

 

I don't want any part of Franson at that rate, either. Certainly not to give up assets (a 2nd and a 3rd? ) for the privilege.

 

Kick the tires in free agency, maybe...

[King Knut]

I don't really know that this is a given.

Jones and Ekblad are certainly exceptions to many rules and our kids aren't quite in that league, but they're still a fairly talented bunch.

 

We won't see more than Ghost and Morin next year in all likelihood... and in fact Hexy may not have much of a choice but to play them if he has any luck moving guys this spring... but if we do, I would more likely think we would see a lot of impact from them both... just not a lot of consistency.

 

I'd expect for every amazing thing they do for us, we'd see a mistake or two.  I expect that's what would change in 2-3 years.  In the mean time though i would think they might have a shot at being very effective. 

 

More than anything I worry about their endurance (Ghost will be recovering and still not have played anything close to an 82 game season at any level) and their ability to protect themselves out there. 

 

3 years before they make an impact.

[King Knut]

1) A coach. You alluded to this.

2) I do think the Islanders are a quicker team on defense. I don't think it's size. I do, however, think it's a combination of more skill and the fact that the coach has them quickly going to better places and is teaching them to quickly make better decisions with the puck.

 

Agree completely on both points.  Our team just has awful positioning defensively.  It's awful for preventing goals and shutting down attacks and it's awful for transitioning. 

It's JUST PLAIN AWFUL in every way that you want your defense to be good.  It literally fails at every mark.

 

I'd venture to add that not only do the Islanders make better decisions with the puck and have more skill with it, but I'll assert that said skill and decisions = much much much better passing.  sharper, smarter and more play making up and down a few of their lines, whereas we get it from 2 guys on one line and that's about it.  Schenn, Simmonds, Umberger and Read have absolutely unimpressed me all year with any sense of finding each other or anticipating a play unfolding.  VLC tends to get good at it on the 4th line for some reason I still can't comprehend... maybe fewer minutes means his brain has more oxygen and maybe playing against the other team's lower line is easier for him to capitalize on.  Coots is the one guy I see actually potentially moving the puck and seeing things like a play maker, but his line mates this year have been absolute murder on him progressing in this respect and outletting to them usually means attempting to thread difficult passes to guys that just aren't able to create any space and get open.

 

Straka and Raffl each show promise.  I'd sooner see Straka play with Schenn and Simmer to see what can materialize.  I'd also consider putting Raffle with Coots in an attempt to bring some speed and separation for him to make some things happen.

 

But as far as play making and puck moving on D though, Streit just can't play every minute of every game and MDZ shows some hints, but is still coming along.  Ghost and Sanheim can't grow up to the big boy league soon enough.

[murraycraven]

Contend? For what? This team is screwed until Umberger and VLC are gone. And our D. 

 

Franson is just more vanilla on the backend. And we'd have to give him his big payday. Sounds great to me...where can we sign so we can have 9 overpaid mediocre Dmen.

 

 

this Team is nowhere ready to even discuss contending.  

 

@JackStraw, If Franson is looking for 6 million, then that is way too much. Of course the biggest problem we have in trading for defense is, if McD got 5 million and Franson gets 6, what will it cost for a  #1 or #2 dman.The free agent defense market is always overpriced. Maybe we need to trade up to the #3 spot in the draft and get Noah Hanfin, he seems like the kind of dman who can step right in and is a potential franchise guy who would get a rookie contract.

 

P.S. you said Franson was Leafs stink, but hes a product of Nashville who have a great record of drafting defense, except for one failure Ryan Parent,,, the guy we traded for.

 

 

I dont think Hanifan would be a bad choice at all but I am not sure the Flyers will get near the top 3 pick.  No matter what if you want a tried and true #1 defenseman you are going to have to go one of two ways:  (1) Overpay for him or (2) draft a defenseman.  #2 relies on a lot of luck and a good development program which is something I am not sure the Flyers possess.  Looking at our track record of "grooming" defensemen it makes me nervous.  

 

With that said I am not sure that it has to be an either/or situation here.  Just b/c we are paying 4M to L Schenn does not mean we need to pay Franson 3M.  They are both vanilla players (as FC stated) and Franson is not going to be a difference maker.  At some point here Hextall needs to call a duck a duck (when they are officially out of the playoffs or the deadline) and sell assets.  I dont really think there needs to be a rush to sign anyone that is not part of the plan.  

 

Try and trade assets at the deadline.  Try and trade any dman on the current roster for picks.   See what happens in the draft and then look at FA but be critical... this is not a one year build - we are looking 3 to 4 years from now.   

[RonJeremy]

So then  if were gonna suck for the next 3-4 years until we get out from under all those contracts, wait for our young dmen to come up and get some more scoring/speed up front.  I guess you can say were in a rebuilding mode. If that's the case, then as discussed before , maybe we do try and trade Giroux for the first pick plus more and get a Connor McDavid.  Giroux will be in his 30s and on a down swing by the time were good again. May as well see what we can get. As discussed if the Oilers get the pick and give us MCDavid and Nurse for Coburn and Giroux and we throw in MCD or VLC...