JagerMeister Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Who is the most overrated superstar player in history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Toews IMO AINEC, people comparing him to Crosby like he is in the same tier. Bitch please, he is atleast a tier below him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 How many Stanley cups does Toews have versus Crosby? Twice as many.....OK how about we talk about Olympic gold medals..........Funny, that is twice as many too. Just sayin'.......Toews gets something that Crosby can only dream of, respect. It is something that is earned and for all of his skill and ability, Crosby is severely lacking in that department. If you don't consider Toews on the same tier as Crosby, I would have to say you are not being entirely honest with yourself. When I think of an overrated player, Phil Kessel/Dion Phaneuf are both poster children for that dubious title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 How many Stanley cups does Toews have versus Crosby? Twice as many.....OK how about we talk about Olympic gold medals..........Funny, that is twice as many too. Just sayin'.......Toews gets something that Crosby can only dream of, respect. It is something that is earned and for all of his skill and ability, Crosby is severely lacking in that department. If you don't consider Toews on the same tier as Crosby, I would have to say you are not being entirely honest with yourself. When I think of an overrated player, Phil Kessel/Dion Phaneuf are both poster children for that dubious title.First of all, using Stanley cups to compare players isnt good, because the player with the stanley cup has the better team, its a team accomplishment so you should just leave it out of the conversation for comparing who the better player is. As for the gold medals, ok i agree with you. But Toews will never win an art ross or a pearson. Btw, Messier>Lemieux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 First of all, using Stanley cups to compare players isnt good, because the player with the stanley cup has the better team, its a team accomplishment so you should just leave it out of the conversation for comparing who the better player is. As for the gold medals, ok i agree with you. But Toews will never win an art ross or a pearson. Btw, Messier>LemieToews is a person that can lead people in a battle.He is 10x the leader that Crosby is and has been throughout his young career. If I am looking for a TEAM leader then Jonathan Toews is my guy. He would be extremely low on my "overrated" list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Toews is a person that can lead people in a battle.He is 10x the leader that Crosby is and has been throughout his young career. If I am looking for a TEAM leader then Jonathan Toews is my guy. He would be extremely low on my "overrated" list. If you swapped teams for Crosby and Toews, I would be willing to bet that Toews would have 0 Cups with the Pens and Crosby would have at least 2 with the Hawks, if not more. Chicago just has a much better foundation, and Toews has benefited greatly from that. It's not to take anything *away* from Toews, but it is to give a lot more credit to the cast around him. Duncan Keith is just as important to those winning Hawks teams as Toews. Dude is on the ice for half the game. In terms of pure offensive skillset, I don't think Toews is even in the same conversation as Crosby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 @brelic While I don't disagree with you, Toews has also been a big influence in the maturing of Patrick Kane, who's been pretty quiet recently outside of hockey and pretty loud in it. I'm not sure Crosbys "lose it when it doesn't go my way" has the same effect. But the Hawks definately have the better 'team" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 If you swapped teams for Crosby and Toews, I would be willing to bet that Toews would have 0 Cups with the Pens and Crosby would have at least 2 with the Hawks, if not more. Chicago just has a much better foundation, and Toews has benefited greatly from that. It's not to take anything *away* from Toews, but it is to give a lot more credit to the cast around him. Duncan Keith is just as important to those winning Hawks teams as Toews. Dude is on the ice for half the game. In terms of pure offensive skillset, I don't think Toews is even in the same conversation as Crosby. I didn't compare them on strictly offensive abilities alone. As much as I dislike Crosby, he is offensively gifted above and beyond most players but his leadership skills and abilities are a joke. When it comes to leadership/ being a captain, Toews is as far above Crosby in that respect as Crosby is ahead of him on skills. Jagr threw Toews out as his choice for overrated. I think there is a long list of people who need to be on that list long before Toews name ever comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Mats Sundin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Jumbo Joe, never seems to get it done. Alex Ovechkin Patrick Roy Towes isn't anywhere near my "overrated list" Edit: good one Ruxaran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 As much as I dislike Crosby, he is offensively gifted above and beyond most players but his leadership skills and abilities are a joke. When it comes to leadership/ being a captain, Toews is as far above Crosby in that respect as Crosby is ahead of him on skills. I believe Toews' leadership abilities are overrated when it comes to the Hawks' success. No doubt he is a solid leader, as he's been one at every level. But Sidney Crosby would have won 2 Cups with that Hawks squad, no question. And Toews would not have won any in Pittsburgh. That's all I mean by his leadership being elevated to some sort of deity status in these parts. It's overvalued because of the context, IMO of course. Jagr threw Toews out as his choice for overrated. I think there is a long list of people who need to be on that list long before Toews name ever comes up. Completely agree - though I guess it depends on how you look at it. If it's 'overrated leadership skills', Toews might head that list. He's seemingly a great leader, but how much of that is due to the Hawks effect? But yeah, there are much better candidates for overrated players in the league, and Kessel/Phaneuf come to mind immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Jumbo Joe, never seems to get it done. Totally agree. He's one of those regular season guys, and playoff chumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 @brelic While I don't disagree with you, Toews has also been a big influence in the maturing of Patrick Kane, who's been pretty quiet recently outside of hockey and pretty loud in it. I'm not sure Crosbys "lose it when it doesn't go my way" has the same effect. But the Hawks definately have the better 'team"How do you know this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Completely agree - though I guess it depends on how you look at it. If it's 'overrated leadership skills', Toews might head that list. He's seemingly a great leader, but how much of that is due to the Hawks effect? But yeah, there are much better candidates for overrated players in the league, and Kessel/Phaneuf come to mind immediately. I keep remembering the series the 'hawks had a couple years ago where the at the over matched Redwings pushed them to 7 games. Zetterberg was doing Towes so dirty in that series ,no means no was not applicable. Towes lost his cool in game two, but then came back and just took it from Zetts and did his job. The whole team followed that lead, i remember instances of other players leading their teams down the toilet in similar situations. I don't think Towes leadership is overrated at all. I will allow that he plays for a great team so that does help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 the media likes to throw around which players are great leaders, messier, yzerman, sakic, toews. But how do they know? do they know what goes on in the locker room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 the media likes to throw around which players are great leaders, messier, yzerman, sakic, toews. But how do they know? do they know what goes on in the locker room?you can "know" by what you see the player doing on the ice. it isn't hard, you see it when a guy hustles on the back check even when he's out of the play, you see it when a guy lays out to block a shot, you see it when a guy takes the after whistle bs and puts points on the score sheet instead of asses in the penalty box. you see it when a guy chirps on his bench to keep his teammates in the game. And you see it when those things don't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Mats Sundin is another one, why is he in the HHOF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 How do you know this? I don't...that's why i said "I'm not sure". But this I do know...if I want to build a champion, Toews is likely going to be a part of that team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 I don't...that's why i said "I'm not sure". But this I do know...if I want to build a champion, Toews is likely going to be a part of that team. You want a true leader, pick Kessel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Totally agree. He's one of those regular season guys, and playoff chumps. This is kind of a myth. His regular season numbers are .99ppg, while his playoff numbers are .77ppg. It's a drop for sure, but it isn't exactly bad. I have wondered the same thing as you about Toews (and Kane) to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'm not going to say the words, but how many cups did Gretzky win outside of Edmonton? Just sayin'. I'll take Messier, Sakic, and Yzerman on a team that isn't an all-star team before The Great One. There's a lot of "frauds" (for lack of a better word) that came out of the 80s and 90s. Ron Francis, Luc Robataille, Jari Kurri, and several other guys who have well over 1000 points, but were "along for the ride" kind of players. I go back and forth on both Toews and Kane. I know it's not all about points, but neither one has overly impressive offensive numbers. Toews averages 62 points a year and Kane 70 (but hasn't hit that mark since 10-11). That's 4 years ago already. These are not "bad" numbers, but these are not unstoppable forces. The other part of me knows that they bring other intangibles to the table, Toews especially. When their names get brought up in comparison to Crosby, I laugh. He's elite. But then sometimes I think you don't have to be great offensively to be considered elite (if you are strong enough in other areas). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 This is kind of a myth. His regular season numbers are .99ppg, while his playoff numbers are .77ppg. It's a drop for sure, but it isn't exactly bad. I'd say that a quarter point per game drop is significant for one of your core pieces. If Giroux had those numbers, I'd be disappointed. Consider that he's a career regular season +154 and a career playoff -27. Compare that to Marleau who is career regular season +18 and playoff -11. His PPG also drops from 0.75 to 0.71 in the playoffs, but that is manageable drop. Other players have drops too, though.. Crosby from 1.38 to 1.20; Datsyuk from 0.97 to 0.74; Toews from 0.90 to 0.86. Kane keeps it even (0.97 to 0.98). Giroux goes up from 0.92 to 1.07. Not sure where I'm going with this... haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 @brelic Toews drops from .90 to .86? So in a playoff run all the way to the cup he'd get ONE less point, playing against the best teams in the NHL, than he would in the regular season in that many games? That tells me he's actually better in postseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropicalFruitGirl26 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Hmmm....I am not sure if I can call him MOST overrated, but whenever I think of overrated players, for some reason Kris Letang comes to mind. And I know that may rub some fans on here the wrong way, but for as much offense as he provides (which is pretty sizable), I still find him to be quite a defensive liability.Couple that with his huge salary and I just don't see a player whom one can say "yea, he is worth what we are paying him, I don't know where we'd be without him". A look around the league, and one can find some other defensemen who provide just as much offense, or close to it, while still either being defensively responsible or much more cost effective. And it has been this way for a while, not just this season, where Kris Letang isn't necessarily one of the better defensemen or even OFFENSIVE defenseman out there, but he certainly is one of the more talked about guys and certainly one of the more expensive ones for what he provides. As a hockey player who can add offensense, I think he is great.As a defenseman, whose primary job is to, you know, defend, I think he is mediocre at best, a total disaster at worst when he gets spun around, pinches in at the wrong time, and isn't necessarily effective on a back check (if he even tries back checking at all). Again, wouldn't say he is the MOST overrated, because he does provide things that are quite helpful to his team, but to hear some analysts, announcers, and NHL fans, one would think he was the best thing since Ray Bourque...I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 @brelic Toews drops from .90 to .86? So in a playoff run all the way to the cup he'd get ONE less point, playing against the best teams in the NHL, than he would in the regular season in that many games? That tells me he's actually better in postseason. Right - he and Kane are pretty consistent. I was just posting some numbers, not making a conclusion out of it. A drop for the top players is probably normal, based on that small sample size. Playoffs are tighter checking, and without looking it up, I would guess that scoring is slightly down. So there's that. But for a 'leader' like Thornton to drop a quarter point per game, to me, is significant. If he's not also killing penalties, and helping out a lot in other ways, it's a substantial blow to your team's offense. EDIT: Datsyuk has a similar drop to Thornton's but he provides so much more than Thornton does even when he's not scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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