J0e Th0rnton Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I would like him to be moved only because you can't build a team around a winger, it doesn't work, you build around centres and even defencemen but not wingers. Kessel would bring back a big haul whether you like it or not, for a 27 year old who has been the 9th most productive player in the past 3 seasons, highest among American forwards the return will be a good one for the Leafs, and like I said The whole Team stopped producing since February, not just Kessel. Don't see how hard that is for your to grasp. I've come up with some comparisons to give people a better idea of where he stands when compared with some of the leagues best. Numbers are taken from the beginning of the 2010-2011 season up until the end of the 2014-2015 season.Kessel 151G - 188A - 339Points - 376GP - Age 27 - CH 8Mil til 2022.90Ppg & .40GpgP.Kane 129G - 198A - 327Points - 332GP - Age 26 - CH 10.5Mil til 2023.98Ppg & .39GpgToews 140G - 175A - 315Points - 343GP - Age 27 - CH 10.5Mil til 2023.92ppg & .40gpgGetzlaf 101G - 238A - 339Points - 347GP - Age 30 - CH 8.25Mil til 2021.98ppg & .29gpgGiroux 119G - 257A - 376Points - 370GP - Age 27 - 8.275 Mil til 20221.01ppg & .32gpgPerry 178G - 153A - 331Points - 354GP - Age 30 - 8.625 Mil til 2022.94ppg & .50gpgBackstrom 76G - 239A - 315 Points - 331GP - Age 27 - 6.7 Mil til 2020.95ppg & .23gpgE.Staal 119G - 195A - 314 Points - 367GP - Age 30 - 8.25 Mil til 2016.86ppg & .32gpgPPG Leaders GPG Leaders As you might now see, Kessel is being paid in the same range as fellow elite players in the NHL, to say he is overpaid only makes you appear clueless about how the market works. He is worth a 1st round pick, grade A prospect, roster player and perhaps a bad contract coming back to the Leafs along with it. That list is a bit bare and seems to focus on high paid guys only.There are plenty of names missing who are near that PPG mark.Daniel and Henrik Sedin. Joe Thornton, Anze Kopitar, John Tavares, Martin StLouis, Henrik Zetterberg, Jamie Benn. most who make between 5.25 and 7 million. Most who bring more to the table than Kessel too. http://www.hockey-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&year_min=2011&year_max=2015&season_start=1&season_end=-1&rookie=N&age_min=0&age_max=99&birth_country=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=S&handed=&is_playoffs=N&c1stat=points&c1comp=gt&c1val=250&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=games_played The thing is, if his contract was a bargain, the leafs would just keep him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92WickedHockey Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 @yave1964 ...We'll wait and see, I'm pretty sure the Wings don't have interest in Phaneuf anymore and apparently the Leafs are only talking to western teams about Kessel also. But both players aren't in the future plans moving forward, Leafs need a complete roster overhaul like the Lightning did with only Stamkos and Hedman if i'm correct as the only guys who survived being moved out. I would say everyone on the Leafs is movable with the exception of Morgan Rielly, William Nylander and the 4th overall pick in a few days which will turn out to be one of Strome/Marner/Hanifin most likely. I think the Coyotes are taking Strome IMO, id be pretty happy with Hanifin, Rielly-Hanifin would be the top pairing in Toronto for the next 10-15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 @92WickedHockeyNylander and Gautheir at center going forward and adding Hanifin to go with Reilly does give the Leafs something to build around. That is of course providing that Hanifin falls there. He is a perfect fit for the Leafs if he gets there. Phaneuf, IMHO is tradeable, as defrenseman are always a hot commodity. As much as I do not like Kessel because of his work habits and contract, I think that Phaneuf gets short shift and gets too much blame for the Leafs trouble. On the right team, second pair, running the second unit on the power play I believe he is very serviceable. He has been forced to play out of position because of the lack of depth and talent on the Leafs.BTW a big name out there among the free agents is Franson who you obviously see more than most of us. I usually go for him in fantasy because he falls thru the cracks. I understand that his defense is terrible or reputed to be, is he as bad as he is made out to be or just a scapegoat? I couldn't help but notice that the Leaf offense fell off a cliff after he was donated to Nashville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92WickedHockey Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 @yave1964, I liked Franson he is a good right hand shot which the Wings are obviously looking for, particularly with the quick wrist shot release he has from the point. He's a big guy at 6'5" so you'd think he'd be physical but he's more of a tall lanky guy who shies away from the hitting game. Apart from that he's a decent skater and in the right system is a top 2 guy, at 27 I think his best days are ahead of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 @yave1964, I liked Franson he is a good right hand shot which the Wings are obviously looking for, particularly with the quick wrist shot release he has from the point. He's a big guy at 6'5" so you'd think he'd be physical but he's more of a tall lanky guy who shies away from the hitting game. Apart from that he's a decent skater and in the right system is a top 2 guy, at 27 I think his best days are ahead of him.I would love to see him in Detroit, if we swing and miss on resigning Zidlicky. Zid will likely command around 3 to 3.5 mill based off age, on a one or two year deal and with the Wings defensive prospects (Oullet, Marchenko and Sproul) all ready or nearly so, a longterm deal for a d-man may not be to our advantage. Based off the absurd contract signed by Petry (6 years, 33 million) and the lack of talent in this years free agnet class, Franson, in spite of an awful time in Nashille will get paid. I love the right handed shot tho, something the Wings really haven't had since Rafalski surprised them by retiring. We may just have to bite the bullet and pay the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckylarry Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Marc Crawford said this morning that Kessel still has a lot of value in the league. Getting a guy with his scoring ability, who is in his prime, is worth a lot. I think Kessel will be traded, but it will be after his July first bonus of 4 mil. is paid by the Leafs. I have no clue what a team will pay for him though: a first, and a good prospect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Penguins have inquired about Kessel... Not sure how I feel about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 @Polaris922 I would be too. He'd obviously help in the goalscoring dept. (50 wouldn't be out of the question with a real #1 centre) but that contract would scare the hell out of me. As would playing shorthanded in your own end when he's on the ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 @Polaris922I would be too. He'd obviously help in the goalscoring dept. (50 wouldn't be out of the question with a real #1 centre) but that contract would scare the hell out of me. As would playing shorthanded in your own end when he's on the ice.If he skated with Sid I'd be for it positionally. Sid had a great run last year on the defensive side of the ice, and was even in discussion for the Selke at one point. It's the contract I fear. If Toronto bites $3 mill of the cap hit then okay. But he's 27 and signed for 7 more years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 @Polaris922 He'd be great with Crosby...or Malkin I'd think. At scoring. But ya, I think that contract is going to start looking pretty ugly in about 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 @Polaris922 I would be too. He'd obviously help in the goalscoring dept. (50 wouldn't be out of the question with a real #1 centre) but that contract would scare the hell out of me. As would playing shorthanded in your own end when he's on the ice. Agree. (Sorry - I reached my quota.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nossagog Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 @Polaris922 He'd be great with Crosby...or Malkin I'd think. At scoring. But ya, I think that contract is going to start looking pretty ugly in about 3 years.Crosby yes, but I'm not sure about Malkin. Crosby's defensive play should be able to mask Kessel's lack there of. But Malkin has always been kind of a free wheeling player when he's at his best in the offensive zone. You need forwards who understand that and have the willingness to cover for him. I would worry about Kessel in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0e Th0rnton Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 If he skated with Sid I'd be for it positionally. Sid had a great run last year on the defensive side of the ice, and was even in discussion for the Selke at one point. It's the contract I fear. If Toronto bites $3 mill of the cap hit then okay. But he's 27 and signed for 7 more years...Yeah, Imagine. if they do not eat Salary for you, Crosby 8.7, Malkin 9.5 and Kessel 8. ugh. Makes it hard to flesh out a team with Depth. And they already have trouble with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 No, but giving out free cookies to go along with the free beer, free hot dogs, free parking, free jerseys, free programs and free tickets will. And..... you can throw the cookies at Kessel's head. Bonus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Kessel is being paid the market standard for a player of his caliber, if you expected the Leafs to sign him to 5 or 6 million a year you're dreaming and clearly know nothing about the economics and market value of top scoring snipers in the NHL. Kessel wouldn't have accepted a lowball like that from any team. So while you may enjoy to poke at his physical appearance the fact remains that he can produce, you may not be physically attracted to him but last time I checked hockey players aren't models, they are paid to produce not look like Hugo Boss models. Kessel has been among the top 10 point producers in the NHL in the past 3 seasons, naturally he will be getting Getzlaf, Perry, Giroux etc type money because he has consistently proven he can manufacture points. With regards to this year it wasn't Kessel that slipped it was the Leafs that slipped, Hockey is a team game not an individual one, hard to score when the Leafs as a team couldn't get out of their own zone for 85% of the season. This isn't the NBA where LeBron James can single handily take a team to the final, in Hockey if you don't have a good supporting cast around great players they won't be as successful as they could have been, exhibit A - Mats Sundin. I think you might be confused as to which sport we're talking about here. You hit the nail on the head with some key points.Kessel IS being paid market value for being an elite scorer. Nobody could have got him for less.The team tried a defensive system midway through the year which killed scoring to ALL Leafs players, not just Kessel.Kessel is the kind of player that could be 1-2 in league scoring if he played with Sidney Crosby. The Leafs know that.We operate in a salary cap league. That's why a Malkin for Kessel deal makes perfect sense. The Penguins can't take on salary without getting rid of salary. Normally (if money were no object), it would be an unfair trade. In today's NHL, Toews for Kadri is a fair deal when you need to dump salary to get under the salary cap. Everything is a "fair" deal nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 @92WickedHockeySo in the interest of getting back towards civility, as a Leaf fan, what is your opinion of what they should do with Kessel? Should they:A) trade him now for whatever you can and clear the cap spaceB) keep him and use him as a cornerstone to build aroundC) take a wait and see approachOpinion? Option D) If the right deal presents itself (1st round draft pick), you move him now. If you don't see a fair trade out there, you start the season with Kessel in your lineup and give him a chance to have a bounce-back year and elevate his trade value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Yeah, Imagine. if they do not eat Salary for you, Crosby 8.7, Malkin 9.5 and Kessel 8. ugh. Makes it hard to flesh out a team with Depth. And they already have trouble with that. No need to worry about Malkin's contract..... he would be the guy going the other way. If the Penguins acquire Kessel, it will be for Evgeni Malkin. I'm dead serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0e Th0rnton Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 No need to worry about Malkin's contract..... he would be the guy going the other way. If the Penguins acquire Kessel, it will be for Evgeni Malkin. I'm dead serious. RoflKessel + Reilly + 2016 1st maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 RoflKessel + Reilly + 2016 1st maybe I know it seems ridiculous at first glance, but you have to see it from Pittsburgh's perspective: The Penguins haven't won a Cup since 2009. They have two #1 centers, no decent wingers, and their D is questionable. The bottom line is simply this: The Penguins are "unbalanced". Malkin doesn't help them as much as having someone to pair with Crosby would. It's also a question of cap space. For the money you save by going from Malkin to Kessel, you can acquire another 1.5 mil player that can contribute. It spreads the talent around a bit more. We've seen this happen before many times. Stacking players at one position doesn't work in a cap league. Teams can't afford to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 @WordsOfWisdom I get your reasoning....but trading Malkin for Kessel is insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 @WordsOfWisdom I get your reasoning....but trading Malkin for Kessel is insane. Crosby is the only player on the Penguins that is untradeable. Adding Kessel would give the Penguins the most dangerous line in the NHL. It would be like Lemieux and Jagr in the 90's. And without a salary cap, I'm sure they would gladly do it and keep Malkin at the same time. But you can't have 30 mil invested in three forwards. That's almost half your cap space gone. The Penguins are looking to try something new (because the status quo isn't working for them anymore), and the Leafs haven't had a #1 center since Sundin. I'm sure Malkin wants a chance to be "the guy". He would be the captain and #1 player on a rebuilding Leafs team. That's powerful motivation to leave Pittsburgh. I'm sure that Crosby has quietly put pressure on ownership to get him a talented winger to play with. Someone that can play at his level, not someone he has to drag around. There is a very real chance that this actually happens. It's not a "wishful thinking" kind of deal. (Maybe I'm insane though.) It makes sense for both sides. If Kessel goes to Pittsburgh, he and Crosby could be #1 and #2 in league scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 @WordsOfWisdom I get why the Leafs do it. But Kessel is nowhere near Malkins league as a player though. I know he's a very good goal scorer. But he's not very good at anything else (that doesn't involve cookies and fishing). And that contract.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 You better throw more than Phil Kessel if you're thinking Malkin. @flyercanuck is absolutely right. Kessel is not in the same tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 You better throw more than Phil Kessel if you're thinking Malkin. @flyercanuck is absolutely right. Kessel is not in the same tier.i think similarly but there aren't many options to make the salaries work out. it would have to picks and an entry level contract. the money works pretty well on a one for one swap, but ii agree it doesn't work "player" wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Won't happen. I could see the Penguins adding Kessel but not at the expense of Malkin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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