(2nd) greatest player in Edmonton Oiler history

[JagerMeister]

@FD197372 Except that it's not just the numbers that make him the greatest offensive force, It's also the margins in which he won his art Ross trophies by. How ahead he was in contrast to the rest of the league is what makes Gretzky one of, if not the greatest hockey player in history.

Considering how high your regard for intangibles is, You must have Howe ahead of Gretzky as well? Unless you also believe Messier to be superior to Howe...

[FD19372]

@FD197372 Except that it's not just the numbers that make him the greatest offensive force, It's also the margins in which he won his art Ross trophies by. How ahead he was in contrast to the rest of the league is what makes Gretzky one of, if not the greatest hockey player in history.

Considering how high your regard for intangibles is, You must have Howe ahead of Gretzky as well? Unless you also believe Messier to be superior to Howe...

Even Wayne Gretzky admitted Gordie Howe was better than he was. No, Messier is not better than Howe.

[JagerMeister]

FD@19372 Gretzky giving out compliments ? I'm astonished....

Gretzky proclaimed Hemsky as one of the best players in the game...

[ScottM]

I have no gripe with anyone putting Howe above Gretzky, and I can easily see the case. That said, Gretzky is a bit too diplomatic with compliments for me to take him seriously when he makes them.

[jammer2]

  I didn't see Kurri leaving for a lesser team, taking them to the finals AND then boast/declare a guaranteed win....why...cause that kinda thing was beyond the player Kurri was.....a great player in his own right, but no where near the Mess. Messier won cups when Wayne was not there...why you ask? Cause he made those around him better and was one of the single greatest leaders of all time. You just can't say stuff like that about Kurri.

[JagerMeister]

This is Mark Messier by a country mile.   Others are very good players in their own right, but not in Messier territory.

 

And Grant Fuhr might be one of the most overrated Cup-winning goalies of all time.  He got the job done, obviously, but I think you could have inserted numerous other goalies into the same spot and have ultimately gotten pretty similar results.

Stastically, Kurri and Messier are very comparable. 

 

Messier

Goals 

1981-82 NHL 50 (8)

1982-83 NHL 48 (9)

1989-90 NHL 45 (9)

1995-96 NHL 47 (9)

Assists 

1986-87 NHL 70 (3)

1987-88 NHL 74 (5)

1988-89 NHL 61 (8)

1989-90 NHL 84 (2)

1991-92 NHL 72 (6)

1994-95 NHL 39 (6)

Points 

1982-83 NHL 106 (7)

1986-87 NHL 107 (3)

1987-88 NHL 111 (5)

1989-90 NHL 129 (2)

1991-92 NHL 107 (5)

1994-95 NHL 53 (10)

 

Kurri

Goals 

1983-84 NHL 52 (5)

1984-85 NHL 71 (2)

1985-86 NHL 68 (1)

1986-87 NHL 54 (3)

Assists 

1982-83 NHL 59 (10)

1984-85 NHL 64 (9)

1985-86 NHL 63 (9)

Points 

1982-83 NHL 104 (9)

1983-84 NHL 113 (7)

1984-85 NHL 135 (2)

1985-86 NHL 131 (4)

1986-87 NHL 108 (2)

1988-89 NHL 102 (8)

 

As you can discern from the data gathered, taking into account overall offensive production, Kurri has slightly more impressive point finishes and while one might assuredly argue that Kurri played with Gretzky, Im of the notion that Kurri would nevertheless be a HHOF without Gretzky aiding him.

 

when it comes to two way play, Kurri notably has higher selke finishes as well. Messier was the more imposing physical player in contrast to Kurri's more traditional defense.

 

As for intangibles, If you measure it based of off the number of cups a player has captained, I guess Messier wins in this regard...

 

 I simply dont believe this should be unanimous like the poll indicates.

[JagerMeister]

  I didn't see Kurri leaving for a lesser team, taking them to the finals AND then boast/declare a guaranteed win....why...cause that kinda thing was beyond the player Kurri was.....a great player in his own right, but no where near the Mess. Messier won cups when Wayne was not there...why you ask? Cause he made those around him better and was one of the single greatest leaders of all time. You just can't say stuff like that about Kurri.

Due to his intangibles or playmaking? If it's the latter, one could also argue that Kurri made those around him better simply because of his ability to score. An exceptional goal scorer can turn a mediocre pass into something which produces results...

[ruxpin]

Stastically, Kurri and Messier are very comparable. 

 

Messier

Goals 

1981-82 NHL 50 (8)

1982-83 NHL 48 (9)

1989-90 NHL 45 (9)

1995-96 NHL 47 (9)

Assists 

1986-87 NHL 70 (3)

1987-88 NHL 74 (5)

1988-89 NHL 61 (8)

1989-90 NHL 84 (2)

1991-92 NHL 72 (6)

1994-95 NHL 39 (6)

Points 

1982-83 NHL 106 (7)

1986-87 NHL 107 (3)

1987-88 NHL 111 (5)

1989-90 NHL 129 (2)

1991-92 NHL 107 (5)

1994-95 NHL 53 (10)

 

Kurri

Goals 

1983-84 NHL 52 (5)

1984-85 NHL 71 (2)

1985-86 NHL 68 (1)

1986-87 NHL 54 (3)

Assists 

1982-83 NHL 59 (10)

1984-85 NHL 64 (9)

1985-86 NHL 63 (9)

Points 

1982-83 NHL 104 (9)

1983-84 NHL 113 (7)

1984-85 NHL 135 (2)

1985-86 NHL 131 (4)

1986-87 NHL 108 (2)

1988-89 NHL 102 (8)

 

As you can discern from the data gathered, taking into account overall offensive production, Kurri has slightly more impressive point finishes and while one might assuredly argue that Kurri played with Gretzky, Im of the notion that Kurri would nevertheless be a HHOF without Gretzky aiding him.

 

when it comes to two way play, Kurri notably has higher selke finishes as well. Messier was the more imposing physical player in contrast to Kurri's more traditional defense.

 

As for intangibles, If you measure it based of off the number of cups a player has captained, I guess Messier wins in this regard...

 

 I simply dont believe this should be unanimous like the poll indicates.

 

The data you present says to me Messier by a country mile.

 

The straight up numbers are close but favor Kurri.   Kurri also winged with the best player in the world.  Messier did not.

Messier won a Con Smythe and two Harts.   Kurri won a Lady Bing.  Ain't that special.

 

Both won a Cup with the Oilers without Gretzky.  But Messier was captain.

Kurri's line that year:   33-60-93  (10-15-25 playoffs)

Messier's line that year:  45-84-129  (9-22-31 playoffs) and won the Hart and the Pearson.

 

Whatever on the Selke, but I'm telling you opposing teams would much rather go into a corner or the front of the net against Kurri than Messier.   Players changed their game around Messier.

 

There's a reason this is nearly unanimous:  it's really not close.

[jammer2]

Due to his intangibles or playmaking? If it's the latter, one could also argue that Kurri made those around him better simply because of his ability to score. An exceptional goal scorer can turn a mediocre pass into something which produces results...

 

 I do think Kurri was an elite star...but he did not make good players great like Mess did. First off, Mess was so menacing, he made every player around him a few inches taller and a few pounds heavier. If Kurri ever went to a lesser team, like Mess did, chances are, he would not lead them to a Cup, he needed elite players around him to make him what he was. He would still be a very good player, but put Kurri on the NYR instead of Mess the year they won the cup....and they don't win the cup.

 

 One more thing that Mess did FAR better than Kurri, and that was imposing his will on others through grit, physicality and skill. He had the great trifecta, where Kurri was a pure sniper, but brought no toughness and no real ability to lead. Imposing his will on opponents was something that Mess has that seperated him from others. To a lesser extent, Lindros and Neeley were much like Mess in that regard.

[yave1964]

Devils advocate with Mess for a minute, keep in mind that I loved him and consider him one of the top 5 centers of all time.

He faced other teams second best defenders, Gretzky drew the top coverage leaving lesser players to handle the second line which Mess centered. That is truly the only argument that I have ever heard that makes sense against him.

That said, he won after Gretzky left. Wayne never did win elsewhere. Then he won with the Rangers. Wayne did not.

Mess was the second greatest player in Oiler history but I do temper it that his numbers were skewed by centering the second line while everyone was watching that guy on the first line. You do have to account for that. But he was a postseason warrior, one of the all time greats.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Devils advocate with Mess for a minute, keep in mind that I loved him and consider him one of the top 5 centers of all time.

He faced other teams second best defenders, Gretzky drew the top coverage leaving lesser players to handle the second line which Mess centered. That is truly the only argument that I have ever heard that makes sense against him.

That said, he won after Gretzky left. Wayne never did win elsewhere. Then he won with the Rangers. Wayne did not.

Mess was the second greatest player in Oiler history but I do temper it that his numbers were skewed by centering the second line while everyone was watching that guy on the first line. You do have to account for that. But he was a postseason warrior, one of the all time greats.

Strangely, once he took over the team after Gretzky left and faced said top checkers, he had his best season for points in 1990 even though he was getting older