Good thing we fired the coach

[radoran]

We had secondary scoring?

 

Given the lack of primary scoring, at the start of the year all they pretty much had was secondary scoring.

 

[murraycraven]

Given the lack of primary scoring, at the start of the year all they pretty much had was secondary scoring.

 

 

Well, that is true...

[Mad Dog]

The team is BAD.  I mean REALLY bad.  I agree with the consensus: you can bring FIVE Scotty Bowmans and they will still be BAD.  The hurting reality is they will be bad next year as well.  And that's tactually the good news.  If the Old Man doesn't start going nuts again as he used to, the transition from good to awesome in 2 years should happen.

[icehole]

I knew this post was coming soon from somebody.

This is what's called growing pains. A new coach was never gonna come in and turn everything around on a dime. Look at Toronto!? lol.

I disagree. There's plenty of coaches that get instant results. Lavi, Bylsma, Lavi again, and Boudreau off the top of my head. It can go the other way too...Torts in Vancouver.

Im not saying personell is not a problem, but some coaches can get a lot out of a team lacking talent. I was hoping Hak could do that but I guess not. I guess we'll just have to wait until he gets talent before we judge too harshly.

What scares me is the starts to games. I believe that falls mostly on the coach. They lose 4 in a row, including buffalo twice, they get blown out the night before, they go into McDavid land, and they get outshot 19-2 in the first period??? WTF was your speach pregame Hak?

[canoli]

I still think something happened during that week after the Boston and Rags games - before Buffalo. The [edit: first] few weeks the Flyers were playing pretty well. Not great but as a team they were at least on the same page. Remember "the redemption line?" There was reason to believe the Flyers were headed in the right direction.

 

Suddenly Buffalo came to town and the Flyers game went to hell. It's still MIA. Worse yet it appears as if no one cares to even look for it.

[OccamsRazor]

Might have a good year but for the most part has been average at best.

 

And as your 6th 7th Dman that is ok i guess..........but not as your top pair. To be honest i think they could have gotten better or the same from a cheaper option like Drewskie.

 

One year deal was fine... two was too much.

 

Again agree. To me he has not been worth the money he signed for. Still scratching my head on this signing.

[Digityman]

I disagree. There's plenty of coaches that get instant results. Lavi, Bylsma, Lavi again, and Boudreau off the top of my head. It can go the other way too...Torts in Vancouver.

Im not saying personell is not a problem, but some coaches can get a lot out of a team lacking talent. I was hoping Hak could do that but I guess not. I guess we'll just have to wait until he gets talent before we judge too harshly.

What scares me is the starts to games. I believe that falls mostly on the coach. They lose 4 in a row, including buffalo twice, they get blown out the night before, they go into McDavid land, and they get outshot 19-2 in the first period??? WTF was your speach pregame Hak?

 

It's been consistant for a few years now through 3 coaches (that I can recall).  At one point does it land on the leadership of the team (Giroux, Jake, Streit...).

[Digityman]

One thing I question is if you are a player on this team that's not playing for a contract, what are you playing for? 

You know this team isn't winning the cup so you might not put in that extra effort each night.

I wonder how that affects some of the players on the team.  Just a thought.

[brelic]

5 years might not be enough

 

It depends on what you expect in 5 years. 

 

A serious Cup contender? Maybe - but I doubt it.

 

A very competitive team (top 10) with the potential to do some real damage in the playoffs? Absolutely.

 

Think about the next 5 years as 5 draft classes - we can only really expect 2 of those 5 1st round picks to be playing in the NHL. If we have more, great, but that's the likely scenario. Hopefully we'll have some later round picks that pan out during that time too so we can count on a handful of draftees on the big roster. 

[OccamsRazor]

Now that we got rid of the anchor that was holding us back, we can let these players do what they can do… Because you know it's not their fault or anything

 

Yes i am glad Berube is gone. Hak will coach them up but it will take time.

 

This team???

 

[Bakanekimiwa]

I disagree. There's plenty of coaches that get instant results. Lavi, Bylsma, Lavi again, and Boudreau off the top of my head. It can go the other way too...Torts in Vancouver.

Im not saying personell is not a problem, but some coaches can get a lot out of a team lacking talent. I was hoping Hak could do that but I guess not. I guess we'll just have to wait until he gets talent before we judge too harshly.

What scares me is the starts to games. I believe that falls mostly on the coach. They lose 4 in a row, including buffalo twice, they get blown out the night before, they go into McDavid land, and they get outshot 19-2 in the first period??? WTF was your speach pregame Hak?

 

 

My comment was specific to THIS team. This lineup... no coach was going to come to Philly and turn THIS team around on a dime. That doesn't mean that any other coach can't come in and turnaround another team just like that. In referencing Toronto, I'm suggesting what you see is similar. That team is a steaming pile of.. you know what and the revered CockMike McBabcock can't do dookie with that pile of horse manure. 

 

I'm in agreement with @radoran on this one. The leadership group of this team should be taken to task well before an NCAA coach that will need time to figure out this level. These guys have been here more than a few years now and they have been consistently inconsistent. The coach can't skate for them and they continually seem to show up late to games. This is has now been the case with THREE coaches. 

 

For these reasons, I simply cannot get behind the issues with this team's failing coming down squarely on the coach right now. However, it's a huge poo sammich and they're all gonna have to take a bite.

[radoran]

It's been consistant for a few years now through 3 coaches (that I can recall).  At one point does it land on the leadership of the team (Giroux, Jake, Streit...).

 

AFAIC, it lands on them right now.

 

It is unbelievable to me that this team comes out of back to back losses to Vancouver and Edmonton talking about the "good things" they've done and how it "just needs to come together" for them.

 

Nonsense. You just lost to a 5-8 Edmonton team - be angry, dammit! Don't talk about what a beautiful highlight reel goal Giroux scored to lose 4-1 to Vancouver. Don't talk about the "good things" after getting outshot 19-2 in the first period on the way to giving up 49 shots.

 

It's worth noting (to me) that Giroux had never been a captain at any level before being handed the C in Philadelphia. I read posts all the time talking about how he is "leading" the team. Well - where is he leading them, exactly?

 

Year One: failed to make the playoffs

Year Two: first round exit

Year Three: failed to make the playoffs

 

And, quite frankly, it isn't looking like Y4 will see any postseason games in Philadelphia.

 

This is the worst stretch of hockey for the organization since the early '90s. And there was much rejoicing when this "core" was locked up long term.

 

One thing I question is if you are a player on this team that's not playing for a contract, what are you playing for? 

You know this team isn't winning the cup so you might not put in that extra effort each night.

I wonder how that affects some of the players on the team.  Just a thought.

 

I wonder how getting rewarded for failure affects the team. Again, Giroux has one round of playoffs in his first two seasons as captain. And gets $66.2M for it.

 

Jake Voracek has all of seven playoff games as a Flyer and gets - $66M for it.

 

Yes, there is a level of professional pride with professional athletes. Yes, I believe they "want to win".

 

But they haven't won and have gotten rewarded handsomely for it.

 

"What else could they have done?"

 

You mean "what else could they do to get one round of playoff hockey in four years?"

 

Quite a lot, actually.

[aziz]

The team is BAD.  I mean REALLY bad.  I agree with the consensus: you can bring FIVE Scotty Bowmans and they will still be BAD.  The hurting reality is they will be bad next year as well.  And that's tactually the good news.  If the Old Man doesn't start going nuts again as he used to, the transition from good to awesome in 2 years should happen.

 

imo, no.  *if* the issue right now is the roster, a handful of defensive prospects aren't going to change much.  certainly not in 2 years.

 

the roster is currently incapable of playing effective hockey right now, for some reason.  the entire roster.  if the reason is simply talent, if this roster is just not good enough to compete at the NHL level, then the whole roster is not able to compete at the NHL level, and you are looking at a top-to-bottom dump-and-rebuild.  if, for example, giroux, voracek and simmonds have only scored a combined 5 goals this season because they just aren't good enough to do better, adding 2 or 3 rookie blueliners isn't going to make any difference.

 

i would agree with you if parts of the team were working well, but a few big holes were tanking the team's chances.  if, say, the top line was managing to score at a nice 2goals/game clip, but the spotty D was giving up a ton of high quality shots...then a few impact additions to the dcorps might do the trick.  patch the holes and right the ship.  the entire team is a mess right now, though.  nothing is working.  if we're gonna point at the talent level of the team as the primary cause, then it's the talent level of the entire team.  if the team's #1 center has suddenly turned into a 40 point player, if voracek will only produce at a replacement level going forward, if simmonds will top out at 10 goals/season for the rest of his career......a couple green 2/3 dmen aren't going to make any difference at all.  at that point, the entire thing needs to be blown up, and don't hope for much success over the next decade.

 

personally, i'm having a really tough time seeing the actual level of talent being the primary problem right now.  too many players we *know* are capable of a lot more than they are doing now are falling on their faces.  i don't have a clever guess as to why that is happening, but "they just aren't good enough" strikes me as too easy an answer.  and an answer that doesn't jive with what we have seen a number of these very players do in the recent past.  

 

i could be wrong, maybe giroux really is only good enough now to hope for 40 points.

[fanaticV3.0]

Well, it is their fault - but there's not a whole lot that can be done about it over the course of one offseason.

 

And with 10 forwards. 3 defencemen and 2 goalies signed for next year, we'll see what can happen there.

 

I do think Hackstol is a billion times the coach that Berube is/was, but it remains to be see if he can shine the turd Holmgren left.

 

That said, I'm not impressed with Hextall's Hartnell/Umburglar deal, nor the Schultz signing and the jury is out on the Voracek and Couturier deals.

 

The honeymoon is over for Hexy. Gotta start showing some results on the ice.

 

At least he sent MacDud to Lehigh.

 

 

The guys who are here could play better for starters. I mean the proven ones. I get that the rest of them suck or are what they are,, but some of those other guys need to get their head out of their ass. G's slow starts are old. I have a really bad feeling Voracek was a fluke last year too.

 

I'm not in love with Hextall or Hakstol right now.

[fanaticV3.0]

Yes i am glad Berube is gone. Hak will coach them up but it will take time.

 

This team???

 

 

You had confidence in Chip Kelly too. Lectured us all pretty good this past off-season..

[Phlyer1]

A good thing we fired the coach. Would that be Lavy??

[aziz]

I wonder how getting rewarded for failure affects the team. Again, Giroux has one round of playoffs in his first two seasons as captain. And gets $66.2M for it.

 

he'd scored 141 points in 125 games under his previous contract.  no, the team didn't accomplish much over that span, but i don't know that scoring at a 1.12p/g pace can really be called "failure".  or getting a contract reflective of placing among the top 3 point-scorers in the league "rewarding failure".

 

i know i know, only the cup counts.  if it is the only measure, though, then holy crap have subban and ovechkin been rewarded for failure.  and don't get me started on lundqvist.

[OccamsRazor]

Lectured us all pretty good this past off-season..

 

Lectured you......to funny...not sure what your point is...but that the case with most your post.

[Bakanekimiwa]

imo, no.  *if* the issue right now is the roster, a handful of defensive prospects aren't going to change much.  certainly not in 2 years.

 

the roster is currently incapable of playing effective hockey right now, for some reason.  the entire roster.  if the reason is simply talent, if this roster is just not good enough to compete at the NHL level, then the whole roster is not able to compete at the NHL level, and you are looking at a top-to-bottom dump-and-rebuild.  if, for example, giroux, voracek and simmonds have only scored a combined 5 goals this season because they just aren't good enough to do better, adding 2 or 3 rookie blueliners isn't going to make any difference.

 

i would agree with you if parts of the team were working well, but a few big holes were tanking the team's chances.  if, say, the top line was managing to score at a nice 2goals/game clip, but the spotty D was giving up a ton of high quality shots...then a few impact additions to the dcorps might do the trick.  patch the holes and right the ship.  the entire team is a mess right now, though.  nothing is working.  if we're gonna point at the talent level of the team as the primary cause, then it's the talent level of the entire team.  if the team's #1 center has suddenly turned into a 40 point player, if voracek will only produce at a replacement level going forward, if simmonds will top out at 10 goals/season for the rest of his career......a couple green 2/3 dmen aren't going to make any difference at all.  at that point, the entire thing needs to be blown up, and don't hope for much success over the next decade.

 

personally, i'm having a really tough time seeing the actual level of talent being the primary problem right now.  too many players we *know* are capable of a lot more than they are doing now are falling on their faces.  i don't have a clever guess as to why that is happening, but "they just aren't good enough" strikes me as too easy an answer.  and an answer that doesn't jive with what we have seen a number of these very players do in the recent past.  

 

i could be wrong, maybe giroux really is only good enough now to hope for 40 points.

 

 

I don't think we're looking at a top/bottom rebuild here as a solution, by any means. Not that that's what you're saying here. I think we can tend to underestimate just how detrimental a below avg D corp and it's effects on the entire team can be. I don't think there's a coincidence here that we have one of the worst D corp in the league and we're having major troubles scoring.

 

There is a catalytic effect going on here when the forwards NEED to be more responsible in their own zone. Of course, I mean to say that they always need to be D responsible, but with this D corp the F's need to be especially responsible to the point of not being able to get their Offensive game going to any effective degree. 

 

Honestly, I think we all know there is no quick fix here and there are myriad reasons why this team is failing. But, to me, it's always coming back to our very poor D corp. This is our Achilles heel and our obvious major weakness. Teams with a weakness as great as ours on D tend to also have trouble scoring. It's my opinion that that is what we're seeing here. 

 

I honestly think our scoring can be fine with an avg, to above, D corp. I also honestly happen to think ours is nowhere near being good enough to have any sustained success. Not this year... probably not next year. 

[radoran]

he'd scored 141 points in 125 games under his previous contract.  no, the team didn't accomplish much over that span, but i don't know that scoring at a 1.12p/g pace can really be called "failure".  or getting a contract reflective of placing among the top 3 point-scorers in the league "rewarding failure".

 

i know i know, only the cup counts.  if it is the only measure, though, then holy crap have subban and ovechkin been rewarded for failure.  and don't get me started on lundqvist.

 

Well, It's not "just the Cup" - I think that actually being "competitive" counts. And I mean "really competitive" and not "make the playoffs and anything can happen" competitive.

 

And you can say that the Habs and the Rags have been "competitive" - certainly more than the Flyers. The Rangers have two Conference Finals and a Cup Final in the past four years - and have been 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st in their division. The Habs have six rounds of playoffs in the past three, including a Conference Final - and two division wins. And Subban does have that Norris Trophy on the shelf and Lundqvist has his 2012 Vezina.

 

Ovechkin - who will be called a failure if he doesn't at least get to a Final - only has the three MVP trophies next to his three Pearson/Lindsays, five Richards, a Calder and an Art Ross. Oh, and the NHL record for most seasons with 10+ game winning goals.

 

Claude Giroux has 26 game winners in his career and a fabulous trophy case with three Bobby Clarke Trophies and four Toyota Cups. Oh, and three more goals in his career than Ovechkin has in the past three years.

 

But, hey, those are some nice apples-to-apples comparisons you've got there.

 

So, no it's not "just the Cup" - it's being in a position where you are a serious contender and not a "No Doubt™" playoff team with one round of hockey in three going on four years.

 

Again, there are lots of things that could have gotten the Flyers one playoff round in the past three years and looking at no playoffs in the fourth.

[aziz]

Honestly, I think we all know there is no quick fix here and there are myriad reasons why this team is failing. But, to me, it's always coming back to our very poor D corp. This is our Achilles heel and our obvious major weakness. Teams with a weakness as great as ours on D tend to also have trouble scoring. It's my opinion that that is what we're seeing here. 

 

i get that, and can see it playing a part.  you do have teams like washington or dallas with bad d-corps but still able to put points on the board, though.  not to mention, it was almost the same flyers roster last season that managed to have a very strong powerplay.  this season, it's a hot mess like everything else the team tries to do.  so far, anyway.  

[Bakanekimiwa]

i get that, and can see it playing a part.  you do have teams like washington or dallas with bad d-corps but still able to put points on the board, though.  not to mention, it was almost the same flyers roster last season that managed to have a very strong powerplay.  this season, it's a hot mess like everything else the team tries to do.  so far, anyway.  

 

Oh no doubt. I mean, clearly our 'star' players need to start playing like it. Bad D or not. They're running out of excuses at this point and it's incredibly boring to watch this team right now. 

[aziz]

 

 

But, hey, those are some nice apples-to-apples comparisons you've got there.

 

 

 

so....personal accolades for ovechkin count.  being consistently in the mix for lundqvist counts.  leaning crazy heavy on price's ability to keep an outclassed team in a lot of games counts for subban.  those are all "success", and massive contracts are appropriate.  scoring at a rate unmatched by all but 2 or 3 players in the league over the previous 3 seasons does not count for giroux.  that is still "failure".  got it, sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

i wonder what would have happened if the flyers hadn't offered that contract to giroux, and the thing had ended up in arbitration.  giroux's agent would say to the arbiter, "hey, my client has score more points over the last three seasons than alex ovechkin.  i would say that makes his performance comparable, at the least, and would like his $9.53mil cap hit to be used as a baseline in these proceedings."  the flyers brass would surely respond, "well, ovechkin won several personal trophies over that span, so it is an entirely different situation.  see, he succeeded.  claude has failed.  and we don't think we should have to reward failure."

 

i'm thinking the arbiter would have looked at the flyers management like they were crazy people, and giroux's cap hit would be around a million dollars higher.  but maybe he would have said, "no, i totally get your point, we'll use brooks laich as the comparable."

[canoli]

i'm convinced something happened after the Rags game, a personality conflict, something in the locker room. That PP last night was ridiculous, the top unit literally standing like they were glued to their spots around the horseshoe, playing a lukewarm version of catch.

 

This team is going through something right now that it wasn't going through in the first few weeks of the season. Where did I read that Giroux was barking at Hakstol on the bench a few games back? Somebody posted it on the board somewhere.

[OccamsRazor]

i'm convinced something happened after the Rags game, a personality conflict, something in the locker room. That PP last night was ridiculous, the top unit literally standing like they were glued to their spots around the horseshoe, playing a lukewarm version of catch.

 

This team is going through something right now that it wasn't going through in the first few weeks of the season. Where did I read that Giroux was barking at Hakstol on the bench a few games back? Somebody posted it on the board somewhere.

 

 

Good question all i know it seems like they were Flying high after beating one of the best teams in the East...the Captain besting his nemesis goaltender (Lundqvist) in the shootout...it hard to get more storied booked ending than that....then they play and lose the the lowly Sabres....it doesn't get more manic depressive than that...i have no answers!!!