JagerMeister Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 IMO, these are some of the most underrated elite players in the league. They're both excellent two way forwards and among the best playmakers in the league. But who do you think is the better player? Arguments for Backstrom - Has led the league in assists once, and has been third in assists 4 other times in his career. While Giroux's highest in the leaderboards was second, and never reaching higher then 4th on the four other occasions he was on the top ten in assists. - Has a higher career PPG and APG. 0.99 and 0.73 to Giroux's 0.90 and 0.66 - Has been a more consistent point producer. has been a top ten point producer 5 times to Giroux's 3. - Has higher single season totals. 101 points, 68 assists and 33 goals in 2009-10. Argument for Giroux - He doesn't play with the greatest goal scorer of their generation and undeniably a top ten goal scorer of all time. - Has a higher point total in the postseason...in less games. Giroux has 61 points in 57 games in comparison to Backstrom's 51 points in 71 games. - Has a higher GPG by a slight margin. 0.29 to 0.26 - Has been the third highest point producer in the league three times. Backstrom's highest is fourth in the league. Now remember, this is just offense. I have no idea who is the better defensive player, I do know they spend a considerable amount of time in the PK or so I have heard. Also, since the majority of users here are Flyers fans....Perhaps @hf101 should prohibit Flyers fans from voting to have this poll remain as objective as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 HEY, I resemble that remark.....I won't vote due to my personal bias but I would say your point about Backstrom spending a large portion of his time on a line with Ovechkin does inflate his numbers just a bit. He is still a great talent but that is a big advantage over say Hartnell/Simmonds/Raffl/Schenn/ or even Jagr(older version) and Vorachek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 23 minutes ago, flyerrod said: HEY, I resemble that remark.....I won't vote due to my personal bias but I would say your point about Backstrom spending a large portion of his time on a line with Ovechkin does inflate his numbers just a bit. He is still a great talent but that is a big advantage over say Hartnell/Simmonds/Raffl/Schenn/ or even Jagr(older version) and Vorachek. That's irrefutable. However, there is a rather small sample size of Backstrom excelling despite an inadequate season ( for his standards ) for Ovechkin. 2011-12 Ovechkin still outproduced Backstrom but Backstrom had 44 points in 42 games to Ovechkin's 65 in 78. Other then that, we don't have a season were Backstrom actually outproduces Ovechkin in a full season. So we don't exactly have a precise measure of Backstrom's abilities without Ovechkin. Yet despite all of that, I still believe Backstrom would remain an elite player without Backstrom. Why? Well, it seems as if truly elite players remain elite when their better counterparts are absent. The Sedins illustrate this perfectly. People though that without the chemistry of his twin brother Daniel, that Henrik's production would decrease moderately. Yet Henrik went on to win the Art Ross. another example is Adam Oates and Brett Hull. when Oates left, Hull's decrease in production was noticeable but his numbers remained elite. Now Backstrom actually hasn't proven himself without Ovechkin yet, but I know for certain he isn't simply some complimentary player. Because complimentary players still don't have elite numbers ( Or in this case, have near identical point production in many seasons ) in numerous cases, just astronomical improvement in production. sorry for the rant Rod, Just typed in my additional thoughts if anyone attempted to denigrate Backstrom to a certain extent that I don't perceive as reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 No need to restrict the vote - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 Just now, hf101 said: No need to restrict the vote - I was joking. I mean, you would have to restrict yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I don't like writing off Backstrom's ability as being mostly due to Ovechkin. Clearly, he benefits, but I bet so does Ovechkin. Kind of like Hull and Oates. It bothers me because I had to keep hearing the same thing about LeClair withLindros (that's another discussion and not quite the same thing and I don't want to hijack this thread). Backstrom is a 4th overall pick on his own merit. He didn't get there on Ovechkin's line. It's not like he was a 3rd liner somewhere who was traded to suddenly be elevated to the first line next to an all-world player. But that brings us to Backstrom vs. Giroux. I'm very tempted to say Giroux just based on the several #3 finishes, faceoff percentage (underrated stat, especially in combination with offensive stats), and better playoff numbers. But I keep thinking Backstrom was 4th vs. 22nd overall in the very same draft. While neither has a ton of playoff experience, there is quite enough to draw some conclusions, and i'll go ahead and cast my vote for Giroux based largely on the fact that Giroux has much better playoff numbers. There's just too many postseasons where Backstrom really hasn't shown up at all. Some of that is the team, but he's supposed to be elite. Giroux, on the otherhand, is or is nearly a PPG player in each playoffs he's been in. EDGE: Giroux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 3 hours ago, JagerMeister said: That's irrefutable. However, there is a rather small sample size of Backstrom excelling despite an inadequate season ( for his standards ) for Ovechkin. 2011-12 Ovechkin still outproduced Backstrom but Backstrom had 44 points in 42 games to Ovechkin's 65 in 78. Other then that, we don't have a season were Backstrom actually outproduces Ovechkin in a full season. So we don't exactly have a precise measure of Backstrom's abilities without Ovechkin. Yet despite all of that, I still believe Backstrom would remain an elite player without Backstrom. Why? Well, it seems as if truly elite players remain elite when their better counterparts are absent. The Sedins illustrate this perfectly. People though that without the chemistry of his twin brother Daniel, that Henrik's production would decrease moderately. Yet Henrik went on to win the Art Ross. another example is Adam Oates and Brett Hull. when Oates left, Hull's decrease in production was noticeable but his numbers remained elite. Now Backstrom actually hasn't proven himself without Ovechkin yet, but I know for certain he isn't simply some complimentary player. Because complimentary players still don't have elite numbers ( Or in this case, have near identical point production in many seasons ) in numerous cases, just astronomical improvement in production. sorry for the rant Rod, Just typed in my additional thoughts if anyone attempted to denigrate Backstrom to a certain extent that I don't perceive as reasonable. 3 hours ago, flyerrod said: He is still a great talent but that is a big advantage over say Hartnell/Simmonds/Raffl/Schenn/ or even Jagr(older version) and Vorachek. I was not trying to denigrate his ability, I was just saying in my eye that(Ovechkin) gives him an edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I watch a fair amount of Caps games and Backstrom is truly an elite player. No question he derives benefits from playing with Ovechkin, however, he is the cat putting the puck on OV's stick when OV finds the space. It certainly doesn't hurt that 8 is the best goal scorer of this era and finishes the chances, but 19 puts the puck where 8 can let it fly. Backstrom could play for my team anyday. I think Orange Jesus is more competitive and has better leadership intangibles. As has been noted he plays his best when the stakes are the highest and for me that's worth more than regular season accolades. I think if I had to choose between the two players to build around i pick Giroux because i value his compete level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 8 hours ago, flyerrod said: I was not trying to denigrate his ability, I was just saying in my eye that(Ovechkin) gives him an edge. I know, that rant was for anyone else that tried to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 So the conclusion seems to be that its a rather close comparison, but an evident edge to Giroux because of playoff performance... I didn't anticipate anything else really, seeing as many of you have Toews as their selected best player in the game...Although, I agree with this conclusion. Because unlike Toews vs Ovechkin or Crosby, the difference between Giroux and Backstrom in the regular season is marginal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 "Flyers fans prefer Giroux over Backstrom" Not exactly a "Man Bites Dog" headline, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I will be that guy. In all honesty, although they're very, very close, I would take Backstrom over Giroux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 Ah, the devils advocate of this discussion. So tell me, why exactly would you choose him over Giroux? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Giroux is the better goal scorer, and a bit flashier. More physical too I suppose. I think Backstrom has the edge in all other categories. Better playmaker, better defensively, plays a smarter all around game. But like I said, they are VERY close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 33 minutes ago, JackStraw said: Giroux is the better goal scorer, and a bit flashier. More physical too I suppose. I think Backstrom has the edge in all other categories. Better playmaker, better defensively, plays a smarter all around game. But like I said, they are VERY close. Reported....and I put you on ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 2 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Reported....and I put you on ignore. I have you on ignore so I have no idea what you just said to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 12 hours ago, JackStraw said: I have you on ignore so I have no idea what you just said to me. I'll help you. He said: XXXXXXXX XXX X XXX XXX XX XXXXXX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 16 hours ago, JackStraw said: Giroux is the better goal scorer, and a bit flashier. More physical too I suppose. I think Backstrom has the edge in all other categories. Better playmaker, better defensively, plays a smarter all around game. But like I said, they are VERY close. It's kind of odd. Like you said, they're VERY close, and I wouldn't want to argue against any of the above. But in almost every category with the exception of "a bit flashier" it's too close to emphatically say "better" either way. Including the better goal scorer thing. I know Giroux is the captain, so maybe one could argue leadership, but that is so intangible that I wouldn't necessarily hang my hat on that either. From here, the only measurable separation is playoff performance. And honestly, with the exception of the 2010 run for the Flyers (in which Giroux was a contributor but certainly not a lead), neither has been ultimately successful as far as their team goes. I'm not arguing with your post. It's very close. Someone says Backstrom, it's a defensible position. I'm only kind of doubling down on your "they are VERY close." And they are also two players it wouldn't have occurred to me to compare. But it's really a dead heat. Interesting topic, @JagerMeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 2 hours ago, ruxpin said: It's kind of odd. Like you said, they're VERY close, and I wouldn't want to argue against any of the above. But in almost every category with the exception of "a bit flashier" it's too close to emphatically say "better" either way. Including the better goal scorer thing. I know Giroux is the captain, so maybe one could argue leadership, but that is so intangible that I wouldn't necessarily hang my hat on that either. From here, the only measurable separation is playoff performance. And honestly, with the exception of the 2010 run for the Flyers (in which Giroux was a contributor but certainly not a lead), neither has been ultimately successful as far as their team goes. I'm not arguing with your post. It's very close. Someone says Backstrom, it's a defensible position. I'm only kind of doubling down on your "they are VERY close." And they are also two players it wouldn't have occurred to me to compare. But it's really a dead heat. Interesting topic, @JagerMeister I've had them linked in my mind for a long time, maybe because I used to live in DC. They almost the same age (I think G is a few months older) and they even resemble one another... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 3 hours ago, JackStraw said: I've had them linked in my mind for a long time, maybe because I used to live in DC. They almost the same age (I think G is a few months older) and they even resemble one another... Wow. Holy crap. Yeah, I just don't watch a lot of Caps hockey. They are my least favorite team and fan base in the NHL. No offense meant. But for me no other team comes close. My aunts lived I Linthicum Heights and one was a huge Caps fan. Used to take me to games way back in the Bernie Parent vs. Bernie Wolfe days. I loved her to pieces, but I think that's where my hated of the Caps started. But man, they DO look very similar. Good call! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 18 hours ago, JackStraw said: I have you on ignore so I have no idea what you just said to me. What was that? I can't hear you cause you're typing. Please type louder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 3 hours ago, flyercanuck said: What was that? I can't hear you cause you're typing. Please type louder XXXX XX XXXXX X XXXXXXXX XX XXX XXXXX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 @ruxpin gobble gobble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 4 hours ago, flyercanuck said: What was that? I can't hear you cause you're typing. Please type louder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 Even though I share Ruxpin's sentiment of Giroux over Backstrom, I will play devils advocate here and attempt to defend JackStraw's position despite there being 3 other people who voted for Backstrom, way to make a convincing argument guys..... It seems @JackStraw was right, Backstrom is the superior defensive player and perhaps even the better possession player. Backstrom Takeaway/Giveaway 475/326 408 blocked shots Selke voting finishes 10, 11, 23, 28 Giroux Takeaway/Giveaway 306/278 284 blocked shots Selke voting finishes 14, 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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