icehole Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I've broken it down to what I think the Flyers need to do to make the team a better contender in the next two or three years. It comes down to two things, trade couturier or have a different approach with him in the offseason. Please continue to read if you're interested in my analysis. It seems like there's 4 ways of thinking here. Either you think Couturier is great because you don't care at all about scoring as long as his defense is great. You are perfectly fine with his scoring as it is (30-35 points per season) because his defense is so good. You wish his scoring would come up a little but you think his defense is great. You wish his scoring would come up and you think his defense is a little overrated. If you are in the first or second category, you don't need to read on. If you're leaning toward the third or fourth category though, I have some suggestions. There's really three ways to get a second (or first) line scoring center, draft, free agency, or trade. The general feeling around here is that free agency isn't the way to go anymore. Some people are open to trades, but the majority wants to draft, draft, draft. I could be wrong with this, but do we have any centers in any of the lower leagues, or has hextall drafted any centers that are projected to become a 2nd line scoring center? I don't think there's any in the pipline yet. The flyers will most likely be a mid draft team this year. Even if they draft a center at 15, 16, 17, will that be good enough to make the team next year? Most likely, that won't be on the team for 2 or 3 years. I'm not on the sixers plan here. If he does make the team, what are the possibilities of him being a first or second line scoring center from the 15, 16, or 17 spot? Probably not to great. The second option is trading. I don't want to lose a winger do you? Let's focus on the centers. Will Bellemare, draft pick, and prospect get you a second line scoring center? Will Laughton, draft pick, prospect get you a second line scoring center? Giroux himself would probably get it done, but do you want to trade the guy with the most points in the past 5 years, a captain, a guy with toughness, the heart of this team right now, for a guy that will most likely be less of a player (Giroux is top 5 in my books)? That leaves one center to trade...Couturier. His stock seems to be pretty high. He could be packaged with a couple of picks or prospects to get a young scorer on this second line. Laughton becomes third line center, koneckny makes the team, your defense gets younger and better, and the rest irons itself out. You'll have to sacrifice a little bit, but all teams do to get better. Nobody just gives up dirt to get gold in return. The third option is to tell Couturier to cut the defense first B.S. We need a 2nd line scorer badly. Get in the weight room, get a power skating coach, and focus on offense, offense, offense. The rest of the team will be held accountable for getting back in their own zone. It will be year six. I'm sick of the F$%#ing excuses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertmega Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I think the centers should look like this next season: 1st line: Giroux 2nd line: Schenn 3rd line: Couturier 4th line: White Odd man out would Laughton in my book. I don't want to give up on him, but I am not too sure what his role would be if/when Schenn is extended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I'm not sure who in their right mind who trade Giroux...mind you the 1st line center....for a 2nd line center???? In fact i would love to hear the laughing from the other GM om the line when he says ok.....yeap 2nd line center plugged??? So who is going to be the 1st line center??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 47 minutes ago, icehole said: You are perfectly fine with his scoring as it is (30-35 points per season) because his defense is so good. He scored 39 and 37 the past two seasons and his 27 in 47 this year projects to 47 points... 49 minutes ago, icehole said: The third option is to tell Couturier to cut the defense first B.S. We need a 2nd line scorer badly. Get in the weight room, get a power skating coach, and focus on offense, offense, offense. The rest of the team will be held accountable for getting back in their own zone. It will be year six. I'm sick of the F$%#ing excuses You act as if Couturier is the one who assigns himself the most defensive zone draws and has told the coach that he demands to play defense-first. None of that, of course, is true. The franchise itself put Couturier into that position until this season. And his production has increased. And, again, history tells us that it is not at all unusual for players to fully develop at 24/25. Two great examples are Patrick Sharp and Justin Williams, who were both shipped out of town as "underperforming" and "disappointing" players who then blossomed into significant offensive presences in the league. The Flyers under Hextall, to their credit, are actually giving this player the opportunity to grow and develop here instead of myopically giving up on him. Time, of course, will tell if they are correct, but at the very least the numbers seem to be moving in their direction with Couturier averaging .57 points per game this season. That ppg average puts him in the same company this season as Mika Zibanejad, Tyler Johnson, Ryan Kesler, David Backes, Boone Jenner, Travis Zajac and Jordan Staal. Essentially: you seem to have a solution in search of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted March 11, 2016 Author Share Posted March 11, 2016 33 minutes ago, radoran said: He scored 39 and 37 the past two seasons and his 27 in 47 this year projects to 47 points... You act as if Couturier is the one who assigns himself the most defensive zone draws and has told the coach that he demands to play defense-first. None of that, of course, is true. The franchise itself put Couturier into that position until this season. And his production has increased. And, again, history tells us that it is not at all unusual for players to fully develop at 24/25. Two great examples are Patrick Sharp and Justin Williams, who were both shipped out of town as "underperforming" and "disappointing" players who then blossomed into significant offensive presences in the league. The Flyers under Hextall, to their credit, are actually giving this player the opportunity to grow and develop here instead of myopically giving up on him. Time, of course, will tell if they are correct, but at the very least the numbers seem to be moving in their direction with Couturier averaging .57 points per game this season. That ppg average puts him in the same company this season as Mika Zibanejad, Tyler Johnson, Ryan Kesler, David Backes, Boone Jenner, Travis Zajac and Jordan Staal. Essentially: you seem to have a solution in search of a problem. Ok. Maybe I cut him a few points short. So you're saying he's going to score 20 points in the last 15 or so games to hit 47? You're saying what he would have reached if he played 82 games. That's a very positive way of looking at it. If he had 60 points last season but was low this season because of injury, I guess that stat would be more valid. You seem to be happy with those stats and I can't change that. So you better hope that year 6 is the year he breaks out or this team will be in the same spot again next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 1 hour ago, icehole said: Please continue to read if you're interested in my analysis. Could I ask that you please put spaces between your paragraphs? You're half way there, with the new paragraph idea, you just need that extra space to separate the two. It helps with the reading part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 43 minutes ago, radoran said: Essentially: you seem to have a solution in search of a problem. I dunno. He's got plenty of problems I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 4 minutes ago, icehole said: Ok. Maybe I cut him a few points short. So you're saying he's going to score 20 points in the last 15 or so games to hit 47? You're saying what he would have reached if he played 82 games. That's a very positive way of looking at it. If he had 60 points last season but was low this season because of injury, I guess that stat would be more valid. You seem to be happy with those stats and I can't change that. So you better hope that year 6 is the year he breaks out or this team will be in the same spot again next year. You cut him short every opportunity you get. I am saying that points-per-game is a very valid statistical way of looking at things. Again, he's at .57 ppg and on the same level this season as those other players mentioned. I also look at it this way: at 23/24 David Backes put up 13 goals and 31 points in 72 games. At 25 he put up 31 goals and 54 points. By your logic the Blues "should have" traded him away for an "established" player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Couturier's Points per 60 minutes this year is 2.12, while Giroux's is 1.69... He has the best Scoring Chances per 60, best Scoring Chance +/-, the best High Danger Chances per 60 (while simultaneously giving up the least), the Flyers score more goal while he's on the ice than any other forward, and all with him having the toughest zone starts... But his offense is a problem? Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 33 minutes ago, icehole said: Ok. Maybe I cut him a few points short. So you're saying he's going to score 20 points in the last 15 or so games to hit 47? You're saying what he would have reached if he played 82 games. That's a very positive way of looking at it. If he had 60 points last season but was low this season because of injury, I guess that stat would be more valid. You seem to be happy with those stats and I can't change that. So you better hope that year 6 is the year he breaks out or this team will be in the same spot again next year. So i have a question that needs to be answered....so who is this elusive "2nd line center" you want to move Coots for...i'm dying to hear your bench mark. Thanks i wait for your response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted March 11, 2016 Author Share Posted March 11, 2016 14 minutes ago, radoran said: You cut him short every opportunity you get. I am saying that points-per-game is a very valid statistical way of looking at things. Again, he's at .57 ppg and on the same level this season as those other players mentioned. I also look at it this way: at 23/24 David Backes put up 13 goals and 31 points in 72 games. At 25 he put up 31 goals and 54 points. By your logic the Blues "should have" traded him away for an "established" player. I finally figured you guys out. You are so scarred from past trades that you're afraid to ever make one again. Don't you trust Hextall to make a good trade? Or would you rather just draft draft draft draft draft until guys either retire or have no value? Letting go of Sharp may not have been the wrong move, but getting Ellison in return was. Letting go of Williams may not have been the wrong move, but getting Markov was. Happy with couturier's numbers or not, teams make trades. If you want to make your team better at center next season, what do you do? Do you want to keep everyone forever? Or do you think trading players like Vandevelde is going to get you something? Who are you willing to trade to get something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said: So i have a question that needs to be answered....so who is this elusive "2nd line center" you want to move Coots for...i'm dying to hear your bench mark. Thanks i wait for your response. This is a good question. Right now, that Points/60 I mentioned is good for 12th among centres in the entire NHL, right between Joe Pavelski and Tyler Seguin. Trading that for something in the 31-60 range seems kind of...... dumb to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, icehole said: Or would you rather just draft draft draft draft draft until guys either retire or have no value? I don't even know what the hell this means? It's like your speaking in tongues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 9 minutes ago, JR Ewing said: Couturier's Points per 60 minutes this year is 2.12, while Giroux's is 1.69... He has the best Scoring Chances per 60, best Scoring Chance +/-, the best High Danger Chances per 60 (while simultaneously giving up the least), the Flyers score more goal while he's on the ice than any other forward, and all with him having the toughest zone starts... But his offense is a problem? Trade him, his value will never be higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Trade Giroux and move Couts to the first line center Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Just now, murraycraven said: Trade Giroux and move Couts to the first line center Imagine the howling if Coots was 1st line center! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Just now, Podein25 said: Imagine the howling if Coots was 1st line center! If Couts played 1st line minutes and was in an offensive role he would score 40+ goals a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 3 minutes ago, icehole said: I finally figured you guys out. You are so scarred from past trades that you're afraid to ever make one again. Don't you trust Hextall to make a good trade? Or would you rather just draft draft draft draft draft until guys either retire or have no value? Letting go of Sharp may not have been the wrong move, but getting Ellison in return was. Letting go of Williams may not have been the wrong move, but getting Markov was. Happy with couturier's numbers or not, teams make trades. If you want to make your team better at center next season, what do you do? Do you want to keep everyone forever? Or do you think trading players like Vandevelde is going to get you something? Who are you willing to trade to get something? You haven't figured out anything. I'm not at all "scared" of making trades. I would trade anyone on the roster for the right deal. But it has to be the right deal. Now, I've asked you several times on different threads WHAT your potential trade is. You have NEVER answered the question. I'm happy to listen. WHO do you want to trade Couturier for? WHAT is "the right deal" here? Just now, murraycraven said: If Couts played 1st line minutes and was in an offensive role he would score 40+ goals a year. Now we're verging on "Crater will score 60" and "Nodl will outscore Jagr" territory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Just now, murraycraven said: If Couts played 1st line minutes and was in an offensive role he would score 40+ goals a year. Oh dear, you've just gone and created 42 more Couturier threads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Just now, Podein25 said: Oh dear, you've just gone and created 42 more Couturier threads! Shooting for 48... as in breier48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Just now, murraycraven said: Shooting for 48... as in breier48 Yeah, that's the ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I highly doubt Couturier will be traded this off season. I believe the organization is content with the strengths he brings to the team and that during the off season he will continue to improve the areas of his game which need some tuning. Although I'm critical too of some of his skating skills and some decision making, I don't see an issue with plans to move forward with him a 2nd line center. He may never be an offensive star, his passing skills are decent. He can feed the puck to more talented scoring threats such as his wingers and he can defend against other teams top lines. Couturier isn't the weakest link on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 6 minutes ago, radoran said: You haven't figured out anything. I'm not at all "scared" of making trades. I would trade anyone on the roster for the right deal. But it has to be the right deal. Now, I've asked you several times on different threads WHAT your potential trade is. You have NEVER answered the question. I'm happy to listen. WHO do you want to trade Couturier for? WHAT is "the right deal" here? Now we're verging on "Crater will score 60" and "Nodl will outscore Jagr" territory similar to the umby will score 30 easy as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, hf101 said: I highly doubt Couturier will be traded this off season. I believe the organization is content with the strengths he brings to the team and that during the off season he will continue to improve the areas of his game which need some tuning. Although I'm critical too of some of his skating skills and some decision making, I don't see an issue with plans to move forward with him a 2nd line center. He may never be an offensive star, his passing skills are decent. He can feed the puck to more talented scoring threats such as his wingers and he can defend against other teams top lines. Couturier isn't the weakest link on the team. I could more easily see them signing a UFA than making a deal in this situation. If Backes, for example, gets to test the market at the FA level, I wouldn't mind them taking a good look. You could create essentially a 2a and 2b line situation. And I very much like depth scoring. I wouldn't break the bank on him, though. His $4.5M is pretty much in line with a 20/50 guy. If they could get him for a $5M or so number... But, again, Couturier's salary is fairly solid now and will likely be a real value by the end of the deal even if he simply keeps up a .57 ppg average. That said, if they can pull off a deal for a Taylor Hall, I'd seriously consider it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I think we've pretty much seen the lineup at the start of next year in bits and pieces over the last month or so as players have been in and out with injuries: Voracek - Giroux - Simmonds Raffl - Couturier - Schenn Laughton - Cousins - Read Vandevelde - Bellemare - Weal Umberger Maybe Voracek/Simmonds and Schenn swap. but otherwise I think it's pretty close to the way they will move forward next year. I'd be pretty ok with that look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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