Manning, Weal, Schenn elect arbitration

[AJgoal]

Doubtful any of them get there, but there it is.

 

http://kuklaskorner.com/hockey/comments/nhl-players-who-have-elected-salary-arbitration?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

Flyers will also now have a second buyout period following the last settlement or award.

[AJgoal]

Also, that means Schenn can't be signed to an offer sheet.

[Howie58]

Putting aside the technical aspects, I have to wonder about the signals sent, particularly to Schenn.  I for one don't see this a good thing in terms of the relationship.  I know this is business. But this just doesn't sound right.

 

 

[AJgoal]

Just now, Howie58 said:

Putting aside the technical aspects, I have to wonder about the signals sent, particularly to Schenn.  I for one don't see this a good thing in terms of the relationship.  I know this is business. But this just doesn't sound right.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean. The players filed for arbitration, not the Flyers.

[aziz]

2 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

I'm not sure what you mean. The players filed for arbitration, not the Flyers.

 

there, too, though.  the flyers didn't offer him anything that he found acceptable enough, and felt his best option was an arbiter.  that isn't good.  both because it can't mean anything positive as regards his relationship with management, and because his statistical comparibles are going to be wayne simmonds (60pts, -7, $3.975mil), matt duchene (60pts, -16, $6mil), aleks barkov (59pts, +18, $5.9mil), and ryan o'reilly (60pts, -16, $7.5mil).  

 

schenn (59pts, +3) is going to be awarded $5mil.  would have been really nice if hexy could have found a way to keep that number down.  out of his hands now.

[radoran]

51 minutes ago, aziz said:

 

there, too, though.  the flyers didn't offer him anything that he found acceptable enough, and felt his best option was an arbiter.  that isn't good.  both because it can't mean anything positive as regards his relationship with management, and because his statistical comparibles are going to be wayne simmonds (60pts, -7, $3.975mil), matt duchene (60pts, -16, $6mil), aleks barkov (59pts, +18, $5.9mil), and ryan o'reilly (60pts, -16, $7.5mil).  

 

schenn (59pts, +3) is going to be awarded $5mil.  would have been really nice if hexy could have found a way to keep that number down.  out of his hands now.

 

They can still come to anagreement prior to arbitration.

 

One could easily look at this as the players saying they want to remain in Philadelphia since they have removed any threat of an offer sheet.

 

I also think that the whole situation shows how teams have blown the salary structure of the league totally out of proportion to accomplishment. O'Reilly at $7.5M is, frankly, absurd. 

 

I think they might be working on term,  more than anything. Just a hunch.

[Howie58]

5 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

I'm not sure what you mean. The players filed for arbitration, not the Flyers.

AJ:

 

Aziz set the table on this....could be the beginning of bad blood. I am a little surprised this hasn't been settled. If I were Schenn it's a bit like being told, "You are good but not good enough for us to cough up the dough."  Now a third party is going to make the call. The only "excuse" is our cap crap. Hexy has to make every dollar count.  

 

Howie

[AJgoal]

Eh. I'll worry about bad blood if it actually makes it to arbitration. Most of these cases will settle out before then. As I posted in the shoutbox, Del Zotto filed last year and signed ahead of time. Also, Schenn's agent is Don Meehan, who uses arbitration regularly as a negotiating tactic (see again MDZ).

[flyercanuck]

9 hours ago, aziz said:

 

there, too, though.  the flyers didn't offer him anything that he found acceptable enough, and felt his best option was an arbiter.  that isn't good.  both because it can't mean anything positive as regards his relationship with management, and because his statistical comparibles are going to be wayne simmonds (60pts, -7, $3.975mil), matt duchene (60pts, -16, $6mil), aleks barkov (59pts, +18, $5.9mil), and ryan o'reilly (60pts, -16, $7.5mil).  

 

schenn (59pts, +3) is going to be awarded $5mil.  would have been really nice if hexy could have found a way to keep that number down.  out of his hands now.

 

Weal filed too...he of fourteen career NHL games and zero points. What's he owed?

 

 

[brelic]

2 hours ago, AJgoal said:

Eh. I'll worry about bad blood if it actually makes it to arbitration. Most of these cases will settle out before then. As I posted in the shoutbox, Del Zotto filed last year and signed ahead of time. Also, Schenn's agent is Don Meehan, who uses arbitration regularly as a negotiating tactic (see again MDZ).

 

Normally I would agree with this, but management has long been lukewarm in what it says publicly about Brayden Schenn. They never seem fully committed to him, if that makes sense. I have no idea why. Sure, he could be better, but he now looks like the player we hoped we'd be getting, isn't he?

 

So strange.

[aziz]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Weal filed too...he of fourteen career NHL games and zero points. What's he owed?

 

 

 

well, based on comparibles, he'll probably get somewhere around $whocares.

 

my guess is he's trying to force a walk-away.  given his age and AHL production, he may very well get $800k and possibly a one-way deal.  which the flyers have no use for.  and so he becomes UFA.

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Weal filed too...he of fourteen career NHL games and zero points. What's he owed?

 

 

 

seriously....  He should be happy he even lands on a another team......

[flyercanuck]

14 minutes ago, aziz said:

 

well, based on comparibles, he'll probably get somewhere around $whocares.

 

my guess is he's trying to force a walk-away.  given his age and AHL production, he may very well get $800k and possibly a one-way deal.  which the flyers have no use for.  and so he becomes UFA.

 

 

The point is it isn't all about hurting players feelings. This thing goes both ways. Players want more. Team want to pay less. Ok, some teams want to pay less. I'm just glad Homer isn't throwing Schenn a 10 year $100,000,000 contract with 6 NTCs and 3 NMCs and 4-2nd round picks as a bonus.

[aziz]

5 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 

The point is it isn't all about hurting players feelings. This thing goes both ways. Players want more. Team want to pay less. Ok, some teams want to pay less. I'm just glad Homer isn't throwing Schenn a 10 year $100,000,000 contract with 6 NTCs and 3 NMCs and 4-2nd round picks as a bonus.

 

i get that, but an arbitration award is not a fun thing.  schenn gets a one or two year deal for a "reasonable" salary, and then goes UFA, two or three years early.  it isn't the end of the world, but it is far from an ideal thing.

 

they may come to an agreement before the actual arbitration.  hopefully.

[flyercanuck]

Just now, aziz said:

 

i get that, but an arbitration award is not a fun thing.  schenn gets a one or two year deal for a "reasonable" salary, and then goes UFA, two or three years early.  it isn't the end of the world, but it is far from an ideal thing.

 

they may come to an agreement before the actual arbitration.  hopefully.

 

It could just be Hextall letting these guys know...I'm not Holmgren and you guys are going to get paid what you earn...not what you dream of earning.

[brelic]

19 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

It could just be Hextall letting these guys know...I'm not Holmgren and you guys are going to get paid what you earn...not what you dream of earning.

 

Right - but then you look at the quickness with with Hextall extended Couturier and Gudas, and Schenn has to be left wondering wtf? Had Couturier *really* earned such a nice extension that much more than Schenn? I wouldn't say so... So in a sense, it sends a message to Schenn that he appears to be an afterthought for the organization.

 

 

[DaGreatGazoo]

13 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Right - but then you look at the quickness with with Hextall extended Couturier and Gudas, and Schenn has to be left wondering wtf? Had Couturier *really* earned such a nice extension that much more than Schenn? I wouldn't say so... So in a sense, it sends a message to Schenn that he appears to be an afterthought for the organization.

 

 

 

While I agree with your point, IIRC, didn't Hextall say that very thing last summer.  Schenn needed to be more consistent, play at a higher level, and earn a long term extension?   I don't know if Coots earned his extension more than Schenn did, but the GM was of the mind that he did.  

 

Like you, I also worry that last summer, a strong season by Schenn, and now this filing, may indicate he/Flyers have very different opinions on where his contract should fall.  

[flyercanuck]

13 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Right - but then you look at the quickness with with Hextall extended Couturier and Gudas, and Schenn has to be left wondering wtf? Had Couturier *really* earned such a nice extension that much more than Schenn? I wouldn't say so... So in a sense, it sends a message to Schenn that he appears to be an afterthought for the organization.

 

 

 

Ya, again we don't know what's been discussed. My guess is Hextalls had numbers in his head that the first two agreed with, and that Schenn (or his agent) don't. We'll see if it gets sorted out before it goes any further.

[brelic]

6 minutes ago, DaGreatGazoo said:

 

While I agree with your point, IIRC, didn't Hextall say that very thing last summer.  Schenn needed to be more consistent, play at a higher level, and earn a long term extension?   I don't know if Coots earned his extension more than Schenn did, but the GM was of the mind that he did.  

 

Like you, I also worry that last summer, a strong season by Schenn, and now this filing, may indicate he/Flyers have very different opinions on where his contract should fall.  

 

Yes, I do remember that. I guess in his mind, Coots had earned that extension more than Schenn, perhaps because expectations were different and met?

 

I'm sure they can work something out before arbitration, and I hope they do. Usually things don't end well when teams and players go to arbitration. It's a bad blood process.

 

[radoran]

2 hours ago, brelic said:

 

Yes, I do remember that. I guess in his mind, Coots had earned that extension more than Schenn, perhaps because expectations were different and met?

 

I'm sure they can work something out before arbitration, and I hope they do. Usually things don't end well when teams and players go to arbitration. It's a bad blood process.

 

 

Schenn's numbers have gone up in each of his past three full seasons. He's a two-time 20-goal scorer (with the third being 18) and hit 26/59 last season. Unfortunately, "the market" is pushing that sort of a player into (at least) the $5M range (which I find ridiculous).

 

Couturier has hit 15 goals once and has plateaued at a 10-15 goal, 35-40 point level for the past three years (CAVEAT: his injury last season). He's signed at $4.333M for six years.

 

I don't see how they get Schenn for less than $5M and he could very well be resisting a long-term deal at a low $5M number. Again, I think this is more about length of contract than anything else.

 

That said, I don't expect Schenn to reach aribitration. I would much more expect Manning and Weal to get there and, perhaps, be on another team come training camp.

[brelic]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

Schenn's numbers have gone up in each of his past three full seasons. He's a two-time 20-goal scorer (with the third being 18) and hit 26/59 last season. Unfortunately, "the market" is pushing that sort of a player into (at least) the $5M range (which I find ridiculous).

 

Couturier has hit 15 goals once and has plateaued at a 10-15 goal, 35-40 point level for the past three years (CAVEAT: his injury last season). He's signed at $4.333M for six years.

 

I don't see how they get Schenn for less than $5M and he could very well be resisting a long-term deal at a low $5M number. Again, I think this is more about length of contract than anything else.

 

That said, I don't expect Schenn to reach aribitration. I would much more expect Manning and Weal to get there and, perhaps, be on another team come training camp.

 

Yes, well said - I agree with everything.

 

In some ways, I think Weal just wants out because he can see he has no role / future with the Flyers. I can't see any other reason he would elect to go to arbitration - he's earned and demonstrated exactly zero. He strikes me as a classic tweener, like Brennan, Alt, and those guys. Solid in the AHL, but just missing something that would make them stick in the NHL. No big loss if he goes, I say.

 

I like Manning and don't mind him at all in the lineup. I thought he got better and better. Serviceable, cheap, good team guy who stands up for his teammates, hits a lot, and not afraid to shoot the puck. I wonder if the sticking point is money or term or both?

 

 

[radoran]

Just now, brelic said:

 

Yes, well said - I agree with everything.

 

In some ways, I think Weal just wants out because he can see he has no role / future with the Flyers. I can't see any other reason he would elect to go to arbitration - he's earned and demonstrated exactly zero. He strikes me as a classic tweener, like Brennan, Alt, and those guys. Solid in the AHL, but just missing something that would make them stick in the NHL. No big loss if he goes, I say.

 

I like Manning and don't mind him at all in the lineup. I thought he got better and better. Serviceable, cheap, good team guy who stands up for his teammates, hits a lot, and not afraid to shoot the puck. I wonder if the sticking point is money or term or both?

 

Weal's not helping his game sitting in the press box and unable to take an AHL role. He thinks he has a shot to be an NHL forward and, as you note, that's not going to come with the Flyers.

 

Manning, likewise, is in a similar position. He's not eligible to go down to the Phantoms and rightnow is a 26-year-old 7th defenseman (possibly 8th with Brennan in the mix) on a team with a boatload of blue line talent coming up.

 

If he thinks he can be a regular NHL player, he's likely going to have to find that role somewhere else. It's not about "liking his game" (which I do, to an extent) - it's that the Flyers (like Weal) don't need "his game." I could maybe see a sign-and-trade before the arbitration as the best "upside" in this situation.

[mojo1917]

I think the recent free agent signings may have given B Schenn and his agent pause to reconsider hooking the Flyers up with a "Couturier type deal".  All the guys that he compares with (black guy excluded ) are making north of 5 million a year and lots of those dudes are minus players.  I think Hextall was like "how's 4.75" and that seemed okay until he got a load of O'Reilly's deal...I think I'd take a second and ask "Djou see what that guy's making ? I think I'm as good as that guy " he's right too. B Schenn is going to get paid. I hope the process stays cordial though.  I can see where this can create some bad blood for both sides. 

[RJ8812]

you guys look too far into things.....

[flyercanuck]

mojo...

 

For every ROR contract there's a Simmonds as well. John Tavares is a heck of a lot better player than Schenn, and he makes $5.5 a season. Jamie Benn comes in at $5.25  Pacioretty has scored 30 or over 4 of last 5 seasons at a $4.5 caphit. 

 

Just because someone is dumb enough to give Ryan O'Reilly that kind of money doesn't mean arbitration is going to hold all teams to that number.