AJgoal Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 27 minutes ago, ruxpin said: I completely agree and I've kind of used Coots as an object lesson for patience when arguing this in my head. Just for argument sake, though. Say he plays this season in juniors. Next year he's 20. As a defenseman. Are we still having this conversation? He still has only had juniors experience. Shorter season, smaller players, etc. So what has changed other than a calendar year? Doesn't he still have to break into the lineup next year same as this year? Doesn't he still face the same growing pains of bigger, more skilled competition than he's used to, longer schedule, etc. Isn't there the same likelihood of the rights of passage of lower pairing and some press box time? I've stated I'm for patience. I am. I don't think there's any rush, for the reasons we've all stated. I just wonder what changes the conversation at this point next year (other than maybe AHL instead of juniors). You answered your own question. Next season they have the luxury of being able to move him back and forth to the A. This year it's all or nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 44 minutes ago, AJgoal said: You answered your own question. Next season they have the luxury of being able to move him back and forth to the A. This year it's all or nothing. Yeah, I guess so. I know that's no small difference. But I guess the point was that at some point there has to be the growing pains of jumping into the deep end. I'm curious, development-wise, what the difference is materially between this year and next. IF he is big enough now, then that's not it. (I think he obviously will continue to grow and even that little bit will prove beneficial). IF hockey-wise he is ready, then that's not it either (yeah, he could score even more in juniors, but what does that really do for his NHL ability or career?). I really do buy the emotional/adult thing at 19. As the father of a 20 year old, though, I'm wondering if the difference is that significant. If so, my kid has some splainin to do. If we're talking about the moving up and down with the A next year, then we're still needing other defensemen and cap issues, etc. etc. So, I'm not sure that's a huge difference (it IS a difference, though, obviously). Keep in mind, I'm still on the side of waiting, but just part legitimately wondering and part devil's advocate. And because, as has been stated, it's July and there's not a hell of a lot to talk about and I'm trying to stay away from the political threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Just now, ruxpin said: Yeah, I guess so. I know that's no small difference. But I guess the point was that at some point there has to be the growing pains of jumping into the deep end. I'm curious, development-wise, what the difference is materially between this year and next. IF he is big enough now, then that's not it. (I think he obviously will continue to grow and even that little bit will prove beneficial). IF hockey-wise he is ready, then that's not it either (yeah, he could score even more in juniors, but what does that really do for his NHL ability or career?). I really do buy the emotional/adult thing at 19. As the father of a 20 year old, though, I'm wondering if the difference is that significant. If so, my kid has some splainin to do. If we're talking about the moving up and down with the A next year, then we're still needing other defensemen and cap issues, etc. etc. So, I'm not sure that's a huge difference (it IS a difference, though, obviously). Keep in mind, I'm still on the side of waiting, but just part legitimately wondering and part devil's advocate. And because, as has been stated, it's July and there's not a hell of a lot to talk about and I'm trying to stay away from the political threads. Well, there's adjusting to the speed/size of competition. AHL players are going to be better than their Junior counterparts in general. The same with the NHL over the AHL. Consider this: Your kid learned to drive. Assuming they are going to be a good enough driver to handle a ferrari on a track, are you going to teach them in that? Or in a sedan where they'll have everything they need to learn to drive and then build them up to the Ferrari until they're ready to drive it full time? It's sort of like that (but not really). Provorov may be able to make the jump right to the NHL. He might not. Throwing him in now, he might be fine. Or he might be completely overwhelmed and learn bad habits to compensate for the increased speed and size that he has to deal with, or need to be sheltered and not develop certain skills to their full potential (a la, perhaps, Couturier). There's really no way to know. At least if you wait until next year, if he starts getting overwhelmed, he can be shuttled back down to the AHL where the competition is still bigger and stronger than in juniors, but it's less pronounced (so, like an entry-level Porsche). That way, coaches can work with him until he's adjusted to playing against the guys there, and then he can come up to the NHL and finish his development. I don't know if he will need that sort of step-by-step, but that's the benefit of going incrementally rather than whole hog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Let's face it, there are bound to be things Provorov can do against kids in Juniors that he'll get killed doing in the NHL. The question is, can he learn that and adapt at NHL speeds? Or is he going to need a walk period before he runs in the NHL? Would it kill him to have the walk period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 @AJgoal That all makes perfect sense to me. I really can only keep the devil's advocate thing up for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 I think we need to over think this some more....surely another good 5 pages should do. Dear Lord the NHL channel guys said he will be fine and will have the Calder locked up by Christmas...no worries really. I need to PM Hockey Junk and see what he thinks let him come here and straighten this out. Oooops i forgot my emoji.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 9 hours ago, ruxpin said: I completely agree and I've kind of used Coots as an object lesson for patience when arguing this in my head. Just for argument sake, though. Say he plays this season in juniors. Next year he's 20. As a defenseman. Are we still having this conversation? He still has only had juniors experience. Shorter season, smaller players, etc. So what has changed other than a calendar year? Doesn't he still have to break into the lineup next year same as this year? Doesn't he still face the same growing pains of bigger, more skilled competition than he's used to, longer schedule, etc. Isn't there the same likelihood of the rights of passage of lower pairing and some press box time? I've stated I'm for patience. I am. I don't think there's any rush, for the reasons we've all stated. I just wonder what changes the conversation at this point next year (other than maybe AHL instead of juniors). Right....unless he blows you away (same as this year) he goes to the A and takes the next step. Maybe its for a handful of games...maybe half a season...maybe a full season. Shorter season? Provorov played 62 WHL regular season games this year....21 playoff games...3 Memorial Cup games and 6 WJHC games. Thats 92 games. Raffl was the only Flyer who played every game this year....he played 88 including playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: I think we need to over think this some more....surely another good 5 pages should do. Dear Lord the NHL channel guys said he will be fine and will have the Calder locked up by Christmas...no worries really. I need to PM Hockey Junk and see what he thinks let him come here and straighten this out. Oooops i forgot my emoji.... Soooo, how about that Trump fella? It's a HOCKEY DISCUSSION BOARD....and it's summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Maybe a guy like Aube-Kubel gets a shot this year. He's a goal scorer, mature, and AHL-bound. That sounds more like the kind of thing Hextall would try out. Let him start in LV and see how he does over the first dozen games. Schenn/G/Simmonds Aube-Kubel/Couturier/Voracek Lyubimov/Laughton/Weise PEB/Gordon/Raffl Weal/Read Too many cooks in the kitchen, right? Someone else has to go. There is no one below the second line that belongs on the second line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 1 hour ago, flyercanuck said: Shorter season? Provorov played 62 WHL regular season games this year....21 playoff games...3 Memorial Cup games and 6 WJHC games. Thats 92 games. Raffl was the only Flyer who played every game this year....he played 88 including playoffs. You and your facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 5 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: I think we need to over think this some more....surely another good 5 pages should do. Are you new here? You really think we can do this in only 5? Someone should call fanatic so we can go for 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 1 hour ago, flyercanuck said: It's a HOCKEY DISCUSSION BOARD....and it's summer It's 2016. You can't type crap out like that. You gotta be like the cool kids and type "It a HDB. You kray?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertmega Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 6 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: I think we need to over think this some more....surely another good 5 pages should do. Dear Lord the NHL channel guys said he will be fine and will have the Calder locked up by Christmas...no worries really. I need to PM Hockey Junk and see what he thinks let him come here and straighten this out. Oooops i forgot my emoji.... Unless Provorov suddenly decides to beg for a trade to the Flo or decides to commit to Ryan Miller being the best player to ever lace them up, HJ will say he is not ready lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Video of the tournament yesterday afternoon. It was taken from the corner and isn't dynamic, but it's a look at the players in a "game situation." https://www.facebook.com/FlyersSkateZones/videos/10153759644083170/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 50 minutes ago, ruxpin said: You and your facts. I apologize rux...for now on I'm going with "What would gummy say." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 48 minutes ago, ruxpin said: It's 2016. You can't type crap out like that. You gotta be like the cool kids and type "It a HDB. You kray?" GFY. Happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 I wonder if the NHL will ever push for an exemption for certain 19 year olds , like one kid per year, per team ? I don't know how much more Ivan will grow in the WHL playing against 17 year olds. He was already the best guy at his position last year. Manhandling a bunch of skinny boys in the corners or blowing them up in the crease will teach him what ? I do think he would be served better by playing against his peers and men in the AHL. He may not be ready to log 22 a night in the NHL, and as has been stated delivering pop corn or skating 7 sheltered minutes a night. won't help him much either. Playing 15-18 a night in the A and earning his way up the depth chart in LV seems like the place he should be...it's a stupid rule that makes that process wait an extra year. I understand "kill the league, Canada, blah blah, blah". I just think it would be better to develop the kid at pace that suits the team that drafts the kid on a case by case basis. The WHL will still be there even if Ivan Provorov is a Phantom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I wonder if the NHL will ever push for an exemption for certain 19 year olds , like one kid per year, per team ? I don't know how much more Ivan will grow in the WHL playing against 17 year olds. He was already the best guy at his position last year. Manhandling a bunch of skinny boys in the corners or blowing them up in the crease will teach him what ? I do think he would be served better by playing against his peers and men in the AHL. He may not be ready to log 22 a night in the NHL, and as has been stated delivering pop corn or skating 7 sheltered minutes a night. won't help him much either. Playing 15-18 a night in the A and earning his way up the depth chart in LV seems like the place he should be...it's a stupid rule that makes that process wait an extra year. I understand "kill the league, Canada, blah blah, blah". I just think it would be better to develop the kid at pace that suits the team that drafts the kid on a case by case basis. The WHL will still be there even if Ivan Provorov is a Phantom. By the same token, the Flyers will still exist if Provorov has to be a Wheat King again... There is an exemption on the CHL rules - if the guy can play in the NHL, he can play in the NHL. The deciding factor seems to be that the CHL doesn't want to lose 30+ of their best players on an annual basis (don't even try to tell me that every team wouldn't take advantage of this "one player" idea). Losing 30 "star" quality players early would seem, to me, to have a decided impact on the overall quality of the league. Also, the CHL team "drafts" a player and excepts to "develop" him and "invests" in that development. It's not unreasonable for them to want to "get something" out of that, is it? As many have said here (over and over), the CHL already produces the best quality talent in the world on a consistent basis and it costs the NHL practically nothing to have that developmental system in place. Why would either the CHL or the NHL want to screw with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, radoran said: By the same token, the Flyers will still exist if Provorov has to be a Wheat King again... There is an exemption on the CHL rules - if the guy can play in the NHL, he can play in the NHL. The deciding factor seems to be that the CHL doesn't want to lose 30+ of their best players on an annual basis (don't even try to tell me that every team wouldn't take advantage of this "one player" idea). Losing 30 "star" quality players early would seem, to me, to have a decided impact on the overall quality of the league. Also, the CHL team "drafts" a player and excepts to "develop" him and "invests" in that development. It's not unreasonable for them to want to "get something" out of that, is it? As many have said here (over and over), the CHL already produces the best quality talent in the world on a consistent basis and it costs the NHL practically nothing to have that developmental system in place. Why would either the CHL or the NHL want to screw with that? To take it a little bit further - think about the turnover of an NHL roster. Now think about turning over your entire team every 3ish years. Now accelerate that by removing the best player or three when they turn 19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I wonder if the NHL will ever push for an exemption for certain 19 year olds , like one kid per year, per team ? Sure why not? Then after they do that you'll have guys saying "Why are they only allowed to take one guy per team...why not two? Or five? 9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I don't know how much more Ivan will grow in the WHL playing against 17 year olds. He was already the best guy at his position last year. Manhandling a bunch of skinny boys in the corners or blowing them up in the crease will teach him what ? How much will he grow in the AHL playing against the Iowa Wild? There's more to the Dub than 17 year olds. 9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I do think he would be served better by playing against his peers and men in the AHL His peers? He's playing against his peers. He's 19. 9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: He may not be ready to log 22 a night in the NHL, and as has been stated delivering pop corn or skating 7 sheltered minutes a night. won't help him much either. Playing 15-18 a night in the A and earning his way up the depth chart in LV seems like the place he should be...it's a stupid rule that makes that process wait an extra year. It's a stupid rule that's protected teenagers from being yo-yoed back and forth by idiot managers trying to rush their prospects. It's also helped give junior franchises (you know, the ones developing the prospects) a heads up about what players they'll likely have going forward. 9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I understand "kill the league, Canada, blah blah, blah". I just think it would be better to develop the kid at pace that suits the team that drafts the kid on a case by case basis. The WHL will still be there even if Ivan Provorov is a Phantom. Brandon drafted him before Philly did. I think it suits them just fine. The AHL will still be there if Ivan Provorov is a Wheat King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 22 minutes ago, radoran said: By the same token, the Flyers will still exist if Provorov has to be a Wheat King again... yeah but MacDonald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 11 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: His peers? He's playing against his peers. He's 19. Those little bitches aren't his peers ability-wise and you know it. He's already ruled all eternal as an 18 year old. He has maybe one peer, in junior hockey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 12 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: It's a stupid rule that's protected teenagers from being yo-yoed back and forth by idiot managers trying to rush their prospects For me that's no different than being pushed to play hurt by some clown in Kitchner that needs to keep his job, or an ambitious guy trying to make a name for himself in juniors...it happens in all leagues. I have always found it to be odd that the NHL holds a draft and then 90% of the guys drafted stay in juniors. I wonder if a better solution is to make the NHL draft age 19, that way the junior team gets the kid for their "prime" teen years and when the kid gets drafted into the NHL they become a pro, like the NBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 See what more proof do you need that he is ready???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 56 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: For me that's no different than being pushed to play hurt by some clown in Kitchner that needs to keep his job, or an ambitious guy trying to make a name for himself in juniors...it happens in all leagues. I have always found it to be odd that the NHL holds a draft and then 90% of the guys drafted stay in juniors. I wonder if a better solution is to make the NHL draft age 19, that way the junior team gets the kid for their "prime" teen years and when the kid gets drafted into the NHL they become a pro, like the NBA. it's been discussed. The problem being they'd have to skip a year of drafting. It would also make it easier for the teams that don't put the work in to draft better players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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