Another Lost Season

[WordsOfWisdom]

The cold, hard reality of another lost season begins to slowly sink in for Leafs fans. After two months of hockey we realize that:

 

1. When the Leafs play their best, their best isn't good enough to win on most nights. (Case in point: A 3-2 shootout loss to Vancouver.)
2. When the Leafs play their worst, they get absolutely crushed.
3. The team is basically healthy. There's no Jack Eichel type white knight coming off the disabled list to the rescue here.
4. The team can't seem to catch a break. They lose every shootout (a coin toss at the best of times).

 

 

 

[flyercanuck]

It's called rebuilding. 

 

You've got a #1 centre (which you've lacked for a decade) a couple of wingers who make you jump out of your seat, and a very good #2 defenceman. There are several other pieces there. Enjoy the ride. It beats the heck out of buying over the hill guys.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

@WordsOfWisdom 

 

 

I agree with @flyercanuck , you are in the midst of a rebuilding phase and the lumps you are seeing the team take is on par with what is to be expected from a team in your situation.

 

Far be it from me to prop up the Leafs or their fans' spirits (you know, being division rivals with my Bolts and all  ), but since I DO like you, Words, I will be sure to focus on the positive here:

 

It is NOT a lost season.

Lost seasons are those previously where the Leafs thought they could still win and were handing out ridiculous long term contracts or retaining vets who had no chance in hell of rebounding or sustaining any bit of success they had before joining the Leafs.

Clarkson and Phaneuf come to mind right away, but I am sure you can come up with others.

 

Toronto finally realized and admitted to themselves they need to wipe the slate clean, and they started doing just that...though a few rusty and/or superfluous parts still remain.

 

As FC said, you have young talent, but more than that, GOOD young talent that just needs more time out there in the trenches.

Toronto needs to stay the course, continue to surround that young core of players with viable complimentary players and vets (while keeping contracts within reason), get rid of some of the remaining floatsam, find a true number one goalie, and commit themselves to a style of play and drill that style into the mindsets of any player who is there, is drafted to the team, or would be signed by the team.

 

And those things will take some time.

Another losing season? Perhaps.

Lost season though? Nope. Not by a long shot.

Yes, there IS a difference.

 

Because at least THIS time (and one could argue even as early as last season), the losing is actually serving a purpose...and that is educate their young stars on what it takes to be an everyday, true NHL'er...and what it takes to beat the best teams in the league....all the while still accumulating some good draft picks along the way.

 

A far cry from the recent seasons of "just sign the biggest name who overachieved and is now available" that had little to no chance of success for the team.

 

I realize that by now, it is in Leafs' fans nature to see the losing and go "Oh no, we suck again", but barring strings of injury disasters to core players and barring stupid contract giveaways, the team should be ready to make a nice playoff run or three in just another couple seasons or so.

 

I STILL think the Edmonton Oilers will be the next Canadian based franchise to win the Stanley Cup (I've been saying this for a about three years now and I stick to it!), but Toronto, as things stand now, and despite the losing record still, is on the right track for sure.

[hf101]

Is Marner celebrating another lost season or ????  My guess is the later.

 

 

 

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

It's called rebuilding. 

 

I know, and I've been watching it since 2004. When does the winning part start to happen?  

 

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

You've got a #1 centre (which you've lacked for a decade)

 

Whoa... whoa whoa..... not quite yet. I'm not ready to anoint anyone as a #1 center just yet. They have about five guys that are roughly the same: Marner, Matthews, Nylander, Kadri, and Bozak. We know that Bozak isn't a #1 center, and never will be. We know that they've tried to make Kadri a #1 center and the jury is out on that one. Matthews has the potential to be a #1 center someday, but he's wildly inconsistent (as one would expect from a rookie). I'm not sure whether Nylander is a center or a winger, because he's been both. Marner might be better than Matthews already, but everyone talks about Matthews and ignores Marner. The closest thing the Leafs have to a #1 center is probably Marner (or at least he's listed as a center) but the team is using him on the wing right now. Confused?  

 

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

a couple of wingers who make you jump out of your seat

 

Indeed.

 

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

and a very good #2 defenceman

 

Jake Gardiner? Indeed.

 

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

There are several other pieces there. Enjoy the ride. It beats the heck out of buying over the hill guys.

 

True. I just get frustrated when I see that we can't seem to climb over any teams in the standings. A Panthers team led by a 50 year old Jagr outshines our team. Or an aging Red Wings team with virtually no talent remaining from their dynasty years and half their roster missing due to injuries is still better than our team. The Habs make one trade (Subban for Weber) and now they're indestructible? The Rangers have three defencemen on their team with more points than our top guy: Morgan Rielly. 

 

(Inserts meds.......)

 

What we we talking about again? 

[WordsOfWisdom]

31 minutes ago, hf101 said:

Is Marner celebrating another lost season or ????  My guess is the later.

 

My goodness. What on earth was that?    lol.

[WordsOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

I agree with @flyercanuck , you are in the midst of a rebuilding phase and the lumps you are seeing the team take is on par with what is to be expected from a team in your situation.

 

During the Leafs rebuilding phase...

 

• HockeyForums was created
• the entire country of the United Arab Emrates was formed and everything you see in the city of Dubai built. 
• our manufacturing sector was sent to China
• the internet was invented
• Ford, GM, and Chrysler stopped being the "big three" automative companies
• the USSR became Russia
• the pyramids were built in Egypt

 

Okay maybe it hasn't been quite that long.  

 

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

And those things will take some time.

Another losing season? Perhaps.

Lost season though? Nope. Not by a long shot.

Yes, there IS a difference.

 

Do you think the Leafs should tank again to get another high draft pick? 

 

I've watched two months of them trying 100% with a healthy roster, and they're motoring along toward a 12th place finish -- maybe lower now that Buffalo has Eichel back. I think it's in their best interests again to shed some trade bait players (Bozak, JVR, Polak, etc.) and go for more draft picks again. Try to nab the #1 pick in the lottery again, and select a defenceman this time.  My two cents.

 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Just now, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Do you think the Leafs should tank again to get another high draft pick? 

 

I've watched two months of them trying 100% with a healthy roster, and they're motoring along toward a 12th place finish -- maybe lower now that Buffalo has Eichel back. I think it's in their best interests again to shed some trade bait players (Bozak, JVR, Polak, etc.) and go for more draft picks again. Try to nab the #1 pick in the lottery again, and select a defenceman this time.  My two cents.

 

 

Tank?

No.

Aside from the fact that I think that is a despicable, deplorable, insidious, unethical, unsportsmanlike, and downright shifty practice, I think, like you said, the Leafs are well on their way to a bottom place finish again.......even while trying 100%.

 

What's the silver lining there?

Building a winning culture.

As corny as that sounds. 

 

Losing has been such a staple in the Toronto locker room that I am sure there are players who view it as "normal".

Well, it isn't.

The team should be pissed off about it, should feel embarrassed by it and should continue to put everything they have into every game.

 

If they still lose (like they are still doing), then so be it....but character will be gained by it, and also, the stench of the losing mentality will gradually dissipate, believe it or not.

 

It's happened time and again throughout the history of the NHL (and really, sports in general).....get rid of the losing mentality, get players thinking they should win EVERY night, get rid of those that don't think that way, and eventually, if the talent is there (you have that with quite a few players now), the winning will come.........but more importantly, the winning attitude and culture will remain in the clubhouse.

 

Tanking only serves to further cultivate the losing culture and even if you continue to get high draft picks, you may find those new young talented minds poisoned by 'loser thoughts' well before they have had a chance to really blossom into elite NHL players.

 

Or worse, have the team give up on those "busts", only to find they succeed elsewhere where there ISN'T a prevalent losing mentality.

[J0e Th0rnton]

30 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I know, and I've been watching it since 2004. When does the winning part start to happen?  

 

 

Whoa... whoa whoa..... not quite yet. I'm not ready to anoint anyone as a #1 center just yet. They have about five guys that are roughly the same: Marner, Matthews, Nylander, Kadri, and Bozak. We know that Bozak isn't a #1 center, and never will be. We know that they've tried to make Kadri a #1 center and the jury is out on that one. Matthews has the potential to be a #1 center someday, but he's wildly inconsistent (as one would expect from a rookie). I'm not sure whether Nylander is a center or a winger, because he's been both. Marner might be better than Matthews already, but everyone talks about Matthews and ignores Marner. The closest thing the Leafs have to a #1 center is probably Marner (or at least he's listed as a center) but the team is using him on the wing right now. Confused?  

 

 

Indeed.

 

 

Jake Gardiner? Indeed.

 

 

True. I just get frustrated when I see that we can't seem to climb over any teams in the standings. A Panthers team led by a 50 year old Jagr outshines our team. Or an aging Red Wings team with virtually no talent remaining from their dynasty years and half their roster missing due to injuries is still better than our team. The Habs make one trade (Subban for Weber) and now they're indestructible? The Rangers have three defencemen on their team with more points than our top guy: Morgan Rielly. 

 

(Inserts meds.......)

 

What we we talking about again? 

Bullcrap.

 

Since before 2004, your GM had been trading the future for several years after 2004. The GM's that followed were absolute boneheads. Trading Rask for Raycroft? No 1st or 2nd round picks in 2007?  Coaches who are terrible to young players and stunt their development like Wilson and Carlyle. Questionable picks and picks that did not pan out and more trading of picks.(Thank you for the Couture pick for Toskala)

 

If they had been properly rebuilding they would have been stockpiling 1st and 2nd round picks en mass, that way some of the prospects work out. And let's be frank, some bad luck played into it too. Luke Schenn was supposed to be the next Scott Stevens and everyone

 

Shanahan took over in 2014. Took over a mess with little value prospects, or at least no standouts. Hired one of the best GM's and the best coach available and committed to the longball rebuild. Since then you have a lot to be excited over. Nylander, Marner and Matthews are the best players you have drafted since Rask.

 

You are witnessing the first real rebuild of the leafs in a long long time. It takes a few years. The potential the team is showing now should have you excited as heck.

 

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

26 minutes ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

Since before 2004, your GM had been trading the future for several years after 2004. The GM's that followed were absolute boneheads. Trading Rask for Raycroft? No 1st or 2nd round picks in 2007?  Coaches who are terrible to young players and stunt their development like Wilson and Carlyle. Questionable picks and picks that did not pan out and more trading of picks.(Thank you for the Couture pick for Toskala)

 

If they had been properly rebuilding they would have been stockpiling 1st and 2nd round picks en mass, that way some of the prospects work out. And let's be frank, some bad luck played into it too. Luke Schenn was supposed to be the next Scott Stevens and everyone

 

Yes. All true, but Leafs fans still had to sit through those years too. It's not like they didn't happen. All the while, management claimed to be in a rebuilding phase. They've used the term "rebuilding" to describe every year since 2004, even though fans know that they've only done a half-ass 50% rebuild attempt for most of that time until very recently.

 

26 minutes ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

Nylander, Marner and Matthews are the best players you have drafted since Rask.

 

Bonus: They're still on our team too.

 

26 minutes ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

You are witnessing the first real rebuild of the leafs in a long long time. It takes a few years. The potential the team is showing now should have you excited as heck.

 

For Leafs fans (and probably Oilers fans as well), potential alone isn't enough to get people excited any more. The fan base still needs to see some wins. It has been far too long. The team burned most of its fan goodwill in the past decade with a slew of 9th, 10th, and 11th place finishes. They've spent enough time since 2004 that a franchise could have been built three times over from scratch by now -- and they have: Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA, to name a few. Has Pittsburgh even missed the playoffs since 2004?

 

If this were any other franchise, given the track record coming into this season, these players would be playing in front of an empty arena, the team would be posting a net loss of 40 million a year, ownership would be trying to give the team away for free (with no takers), and the team wouldn't be broadcast on television anywhere. (Just to put things in perspective.) But since it's the Leafs, the fans are there. 

 

I'm definitely excited at what could-be in the near future, but I seriously hope that next season is the year that it all comes together and this team gets back into the playoffs. Assuming they return to the top 8, I hope they stay for the next decade and make some noise.

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

Tank?

No.

Aside from the fact that I think that is a despicable, deplorable, insidious, unethical, unsportsmanlike, and downright shifty practice, I think, like you said, the Leafs are well on their way to a bottom place finish again.......even while trying 100%.

 

Perhaps "tank" is too strong a word, but moving out players that won't be part of the team going forward, in order to make room for another wave of draft picks (even if it means losing more games in the short term) would be good I think. This would be a bad season to finish 9th, 10th, 11th, or even 12th for that matter. 

 

The time is right to move Bozak. He has no place on the team going forward. JVR could also be moved in order to fetch another top prospect perhaps. I'd also be looking at what to do with Polak, Hunwick, and Marincin.

 

[BluPuk]

Hang in there, WOW. In today's NHL you can't become a contender overnight. It's a re-build - it will take years under the current NHL system. The inmates are running the asylum so to speak, and the game suffers in the mean while. 

Simply put, we don't have enough talent yet. Players like Bozak, Brown, Smith, Hyman, Enroth, Komorov, etc., while they work hard and give 100%, are simply not talented enough to make a difference. They don't have that instinct for the great play that the better players do. Under the Leafs new management, they will slowly be replaced by better players. But it will take time.

In the mean time, we have the NHL's curious and laughable "3-point-sometimes" system which allows mediocre teams to look like winners - until they really have to deliver the goods in the play-offs where you must actually win, and they get found out. 

So, sadly you will not see a contender born this season, but I believe we will eventually get there....

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

7 minutes ago, BluPuk said:

 

Simply put, we don't have enough talent yet. Players like Bozak, Brown, Smith, Hyman, Enroth, Komorov, etc., while they work hard and give 100%, are simply not talented enough to make a difference. They don't have that instinct for the great play that the better players do. Under the Leafs new management, they will slowly be replaced by better players. But it will take time.

 

 

Hmm...you know, while the Leafs certainly still have some bodies to shuffle in, around and out of the lineup to shape a contender, out of the players you mentioned, I think guys like Komarov and Hyman are worth keeping as they make EXCELLENT bottom six type guys that every team needs to be good.

 

Hyman is only 24, is still on his entry level contract, has decent size and could still grow along with the team taking a permanent spot on the 3rd line (maybe some top six time if his offense improves closer to the levels they were before he was in the NHL), while Komarov, still 29, can continue to man a 3rd or 4th line keeping stability there.

 

At worst, in Komarov's case, he may have some trade value to a team that is a shoe-in for the playoffs as he does a bit of everything, agitates, hits, takes some face-offs, and even has a touch of scoring sometimes......and his 3M price tag is about right for what a bottom six guy who does a bit of everything goes for these days (he can certainly play on the Bolts' bottom six anytime!).

 

The others, Bozak, Brown, Smith....could probably be moved out and not a second thought given to it, although Bozak shouldn't simply be 'discarded' as he may have some trade value as well to a contender.

 

Enroth, not a bad backup goalie...but NOT on the Leafs!

He is just the type of guy who can backstop just fine in limited playing time AND behind a solid defense.

Leafs would need him to play TOO much, and their D isn't cut out for him....he should NOT be on the team unless Toronto can quickly improve its defense and/or gets a number one goalie who doesn't need to be pulled every other game...

[WordsOfWisdom]

27 minutes ago, BluPuk said:

Players like Bozak, Brown, Smith, Hyman, Enroth, Komorov, etc., while they work hard and give 100%, are simply not talented enough to make a difference.

 

I mentioned Bozak because the Leafs now have a glut of talented centers, and Bozak is the one that has plateaued. The other centers are as good or better than he is, and they still have upside. They can deal Bozak (advertise him as a 2nd or 3rd line center) and hopefully get a defenceman back.

 

I haven't thought about Brown, Smith, or Hyman. 

 

Enroth wouldn't fetch anything. His value is zero. He is likely going to be released before the season is over and we'll have Sparks back up here again. 

 

Komarov has value in a checking role, provided we don't ever overpay here.

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

16 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

Enroth, not a bad backup goalie...but NOT on the Leafs!

 

No, not bad at all. He's horrible!   

 

Enroth is the worst goalie I have ever seen on the Leafs. He needs to stay on the bench at all times and organize sticks or something. 

 

18 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

Hyman is only 24, is still on his entry level contract, has decent size and could still grow along with the team taking a permanent spot on the 3rd line (maybe some top six time if his offense improves closer to the levels they were before he was in the NHL), while Komarov, still 29, can continue to man a 3rd or 4th line keeping stability there.

 

Agreed.

 

[flyercanuck]

19 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I know, and I've been watching it since 2004. When does the winning part start to happen?  

 

 

Patience. You guys just took management seriously a little over a year ago. And young guys take a few years to have an impact. (other than one 4 goal game to start the season)

 

Quote

Whoa... whoa whoa..... not quite yet. I'm not ready to anoint anyone as a #1 center just yet. They have about five guys that are roughly the same: Marner, Matthews, Nylander, Kadri, and Bozak.

 

The same? ONE of those guys looks like a #1 centre. Mathews. 

 

Quote

 

 

 

We know that Bozak isn't a #1 center, and never will be. We know that they've tried to make Kadri a #1 center and the jury is out on that one. Matthews has the potential to be a #1 center someday, but he's wildly inconsistent (as one would expect from a rookie). I'm not sure whether Nylander is a center or a winger, because he's been both. Marner might be better than Matthews already, but everyone talks about Matthews and ignores Marner. The closest thing the Leafs have to a #1 center is probably Marner (or at least he's listed as a center) but the team is using him on the wing right now. Confused?  

 

No. I'd say Marner and Nylander both look like excellent top 6 wingers in the making...not centres.

 

Quote

 

Indeed.

 

 

Jake Gardiner? Indeed.

 

Umm....no. Gardiner, when he's on his game can be a 2nd pairing guy. When he's off it he belongs in the ECHL.

 

Quote

 

 

True. I just get frustrated when I see that we can't seem to climb over any teams in the standings. A Panthers team led by a 50 year old Jagr outshines our team. Or an aging Red Wings team with virtually no talent remaining from their dynasty years and half their roster missing due to injuries is still better than our team. The Habs make one trade (Subban for Weber) and now they're indestructible? The Rangers have three defencemen on their team with more points than our top guy: Morgan Rielly. 

 

(Inserts meds.......)

 

What we we talking about again? 

 

There's no doubt the Leafs need help on the blueline. We'll see how good management is by how long they take to fill that need. It's a tough position to acquire young talent in. 

 

Two seasons ago Rick was on here saying the same things you are...complaining how terrible his team is. Now look at him, gloating about his 28th place franchise. He sees that his team has some pretty good pieces in place. So do you guys.

 

It beats the heck out of having Darcy Tucker and Tie Domi as the face of your franchise doesn't it? Or Brian Burke.

 

Now if the team can just get on the same page...

 

[jammer2]

Does a 3rd go around for Carl Brewer count as part of the rebuild??  Miss me some Carl!!

[flyercanuck]

7 hours ago, jammer2 said:

Does a 3rd go around for Carl Brewer count as part of the rebuild??  Miss me some Carl!!

 

Only with some pyramid power. And a paper bag on the coaches head.

[jammer2]

11 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Only with some pyramid power. And a paper bag on the coaches head.

 

 My Uncle Dan, (RIP) was a huge Habs fans, I will never forget the pure joy he had when explaining the Pyramid Power to me as a young kid...he laughed so hard, it took him minutes to get out, truly, some funny stuff.

[J0e Th0rnton]

I was not aware the leafs were like 20 million under the cap too.

 

They have the money to make some offers this summer. They don't even need to chase the big dogs. They have a first line that is going to organically become elite. They need to trade Bozak and retain half his salary(A lot of teams might not mind C depth at 2.1 million) for a 2nd or 3rd. Let Matthews have more icetime and responsibility. Look for a top 6 winger and for sure some defense.

 

If Shattenkirk is not under contract, they can throw UFA money at him. I know people Balk at paying UFA money sometimes, but Shattenkirk would be worth it. Reportedly he wants to come east too. Not a ton other than Depth Dmen available and a few specialists, but they could stand to replace some.

 

TJ Oshie would be a prime winger candidate to go for as well. With Kuznetsov due a new contract, Oshie might become available.

 

 

[JR Ewing]

Try a decade of getting to the middle of November and knowing that the season is done.  

 

[flyercanuck]

Just now, JR Ewing said:

Try a decade of getting to the middle of November and knowing that the season is done.  

 

 

Pretty sure the Leafs have been there...done that.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

2 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

Try a decade of getting to the middle of November and knowing that the season is done.  

 

 

I dare say your suffering is just about over.

Barring unbelievably STUPID moves by management, you should have a team to be proud of for some time to come.

 

And remember....I am the one saying the Oilers will be next Canadian based franchise to win the Stanley Cup....don't know if that is in 2017 or 2028, but it will be them....

 

But from the looks of it, the Leafs won't be far behind that.

Imagine, in the near future, an Edmonton Oilers vs Toronto Maple Leafs SC Finals.....gasp...the universe just may shatter at that point.....

[jammer2]

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Pretty sure the Leafs have been there...done that.

 

 It has been almost 30 years since Sittler retired.....the have had ONE......ONE quality run in the time since. That is staggering. Other teams fans can't even comprehend how empty and lifeless that would be. They have made the playoffs approx 5 times since the respectable 70's days of Sittler and McDonald...and have not made the finals even once. Putrid does not even cover it.