Intelligent Take on Hextall's Three Years as GM

[vis]

Just now, brelic said:

Right... it isn't a bad contract in the sense of what each guy represents to their team.

Don't think you can evaluate things in a vacuum of what each guy represents to their team.  But I think that's a discussion for a different thread.

 

Just now, brelic said:

In my opinion, Giroux is MUCH more valuable to the team than Voracek, regardless of point production. He just brings so much more to the table than Jake does.

I don't know who is more valuable than the other.  I suppose Giroux because, in theory, he can do more than Jake.

 

Just now, brelic said:

Now, whether or not you (the general 'you') believe that Giroux is the *right* guy for this team is an entirely different discussion, and one that has permeated a lot of threads lately, lol!

For sure.  

 

Just now, brelic said:

 

I am on board with Hextall's approach but I am torn between gutting the roster to get a bona fide top 3-5 pick versus continuing to accumulate draft picks and finding another Giroux in there somewhere. Maybe that's a guy like Konecny or Rubtsov or Lindblom or Provorov. One of those guys could emerge as a team leader, or maybe it's someone yet undrafted.

I think you have to rip the band-aid and go full-blown rebuild.  "Retooling" doesn't seem to work as a means to becoming a legit SC contender - unless perhaps you have superior goaltending,

 

[brelic]

5 minutes ago, vis said:

Don't think you can evaluate things in a vacuum of what each guy represents to their team.  But I think that's a discussion for a different thread.

 

I don't know who is more valuable than the other.  I suppose Giroux because, in theory, he can do more than Jake.

 

For sure.  

 

I think you have to rip the band-aid and go full-blown rebuild.  "Retooling" doesn't seem to work as a means to becoming a legit SC contender - unless perhaps you have superior goaltending,

 

 

Which we might have in our system somewhere... Hart or Sandstrom, I would guess. There's a good chance one of them emerges as our goalie for the next decade +.*

 

Maybe Hextall can do both by trading up in the draft with a team that already has a few young pieces and is looking to add a bit more mature pieces. Someone like, say Arizona, who has Domi, Crouse, DeAngelo, Duclair... they might want a guy like a Couturier or Schenn + our 1st for their 1st. Or maybe Dallas, or Buffalo. Right now, we're looking at a pick in the 6-12 range.

 

Do you consider trading Giroux? I don't know - I completely understand the logic of moving him in the name of rebuilding. But that's also another huge disruption to the team that takes 2-3 years to repair. 

 

I don't envy Hextall at all.

 

* Wait, what am I saying??? This is Philly we're talkin' bout!

[vis]

7 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Which we might have in our system somewhere... Hart or Sandstrom, I would guess. There's a good chance one of them emerges as our goalie for the next decade +.*

 

Sure, but this is probably years away from being the case.  Probably much past the prime years of G and V.  Unless you sign Bishop.

 

7 minutes ago, brelic said:

Do you consider trading Giroux? I don't know - I completely understand the logic of moving him in the name of rebuilding. But that's also another huge disruption to the team that takes 2-3 years to repair. 

I think so.  See above.

[radoran]

If the Flyers go the route of putting 3-4 first-year defensemen into the lineup (on top of Ghost/Provorov), don't expect "superior goaltending" from anybody for a few years.

 

Bishop. Fleury, Mason. Stolarz. Dryden. Parent. Tretiak.

 

I'm not at all saying they shouldn't go that route - there are precedents for long term success.

 

Just don't expect short term miracles.

[flyercanuck]

8 hours ago, radoran said:

If the Flyers go the route of putting 3-4 first-year defensemen into the lineup (on top of Ghost/Provorov), don't expect "superior goaltending" from anybody for a few years.

 

Bishop. Fleury, Mason. Stolarz. Dryden. Parent. Tretiak.

 

I'm not at all saying they shouldn't go that route - there are precedents for long term success.

 

Just don't expect short term miracles.

 

I'd like to see one of Morin/Hagg brought up. Maybe the other or Sanheim if he earns it, halfway through the season. But not all 3 at once.

[brelic]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

I'd like to see one of Morin/Hagg brought up. Maybe the other or Sanheim if he earns it, halfway through the season. But not all 3 at once.

 

We probably have a higher need for Hagg/Morin than Sanheim right now. 

 

Provorov, Ghost, and Gudas (yes, GUDAS!, he of 20 points in 62 games) provide enough of that offense from the blueline that we don't need Sanheim right now. Morin/Hagg might be more useful at this point.

 

Provy/MacDud

Gudas/Hagg

Morin/Ghost

 

Or maybe we look to add a UFA like Campbell or Seidenberg to help out the youngsters. Yes, I know there are *better* options out there like Alzner, but he will want a max deal in length. If he's not part of our long term plans, it's smarter to go with a 1 or 2 year option.

 

Heck, maybe even Streit comes back for a year. Not much of a commitment, he knows the team, the system, the area, etc.

 

 

[flyercanuck]

44 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

We probably have a higher need for Hagg/Morin than Sanheim right now. 

 

Provorov, Ghost, and Gudas (yes, GUDAS!, he of 20 points in 62 games) provide enough of that offense from the blueline that we don't need Sanheim right now. Morin/Hagg might be more useful at this point.

 

Provy/MacDud

Gudas/Hagg

Morin/Ghost

 

Or maybe we look to add a UFA like Campbell or Seidenberg to help out the youngsters. Yes, I know there are *better* options out there like Alzner, but he will want a max deal in length. If he's not part of our long term plans, it's smarter to go with a 1 or 2 year option.

 

Heck, maybe even Streit comes back for a year. Not much of a commitment, he knows the team, the system, the area, etc.

 

 

 

Sanheim (or Morin/Hagg) are only coming up if they're ready. If Sanheim's ready, he deserves a shot.

 

I think Seidenberg is done, no? Last I saw him play he was terrible. I agree....No long term deals...we need room for our own. I don't think Streit can come back...the Keith Tkachunk rule.  

[brelic]

4 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Sanheim (or Morin/Hagg) are only coming up if they're ready. If Sanheim's ready, he deserves a shot.

 

I think Seidenberg is done, no? Last I saw him play he was terrible. I agree....No long term deals...we need room for our own. I don't think Streit can come back...the Keith Tkachunk rule.  

 

Yes, I get that if a player is ready, he deserves a shot. But it's also true that getting a shot, even if deserved, doesn't happen until the pro team's hand is forced - injuries, trades, free agent leaving, whatever. 

 

If there are two open spots, and Sanheim has the least needed skillset at that point, it won't hurt him to continue refining his game in LV. Three rookies on defense plus Provorov and Ghost is highly unlikely to happen.Unless we magically get rid of MacDud and Gudas, there's no room at the inn. I doubt they would carry a young rookie as a 7th. Does him no good.

 

I think we have four spots taken up for sure - Provorov, Ghost, Gudas, MacDud.

 

What about Manning? If the Knights don't pick him up, he's coming back too. 

 

That leaves one open roster spot on defense, plus a 7th which may be a veteran depth signing. 

 

[flyercanuck]

1 minute ago, brelic said:

 

Yes, I get that if a player is ready, he deserves a shot. But it's also true that getting a shot, even if deserved, doesn't happen until the pro team's hand is forced - injuries, trades, free agent leaving, whatever. 

 

If there are two open spots, and Sanheim has the least needed skillset at that point, it won't hurt him to continue refining his game in LV. Three rookies on defense plus Provorov and Ghost is highly unlikely to happen.Unless we magically get rid of MacDud and Gudas, there's no room at the inn. I doubt they would carry a young rookie as a 7th. Does him no good.

 

I think we have four spots taken up for sure - Provorov, Ghost, Gudas, MacDud.

 

What about Manning? If the Knights don't pick him up, he's coming back too. 

 

That leaves one open roster spot on defense, plus a 7th which may be a veteran depth signing. 

 

 

 

I agree...but let's say Morin and Sanheim both look great out of camp, Manning could be dealt. Not saying that's what has to happen, just a possibility. But I still think Travis needs to work on his D game for the NHL.

[brelic]

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 

I agree...but let's say Morin and Sanheim both look great out of camp, Manning could be dealt. Not saying that's what has to happen, just a possibility. But I still think Travis needs to work on his D game for the NHL.

 

Yes, that's a good point. Manning could also become the 7th, which makes it a nice, cheap, and known option.

[OccamsRazor]

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Manning could be dealt

 

Or waived. Cap off the books except a few thousand. A good problem to have if it arises.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

10 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

I'd like to see one of Morin/Hagg brought up. Maybe the other or Sanheim if he earns it, halfway through the season. But not all 3 at once.

 

It can be done and I don't think it would be any worse than what's currently patrolling the blue line. I still remember the year San Jose had both Matt Carle and Marc Edouard Vlasic in the lineup as rookies and they played a lot of minutes. I think good coaching is the key to working so many young guys into the lineup. That's why if the Flyers do decide to remove all the assistant coaches, they need a veteran coach there who can lead these young guys going forward. I think Hagg partners well with Gostisbehere and we all know that Morin and Sanheim have had success together and Provorov and Gudas should be a no brainer pairing. 

 

I really don't think the defense is far off at all. But honestly, Id' rather everyone just take their lumps because they're going to have to take them eventually. Having guys like Manning and Schultz in the lineup is just delaying the inevitable.

[elmatus]

I'd be fine with seeing some of the youngins finally work their way in. That said, I do like Hextall's insistence that they make the team by essentially being better than whoever they'd be replacing.

 

I'm sure at least 1-2 of them will be in the O&B next year, which is fine. I would like to point out something some folks around here will likely not be willing to admit: next year's Flyers are not going to be any better than this year's Flyers. I do think most of us understand this, but you know.

 

Having more rookie dmen in the line up will make at least the first few months that much more difficult to watch. They actually weren't doing so horribly bad up until xmas or so. With a bunch of rookies, the early season would be especially difficult. So, imagine this year but with no reasonably decent play from October to December.

[radoran]

Something to keep in mind, as always, is the salary cap

 

Cap Friendly has them with $2.2M in cap space available ("Total sum of full cap hit values that can be added to the roster to remain compliant through end of year")

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/flyers

 

That means they can likely bring up 2 players in the $800K+ range (Laughton, Morin, Sanheim, Hagg) and maybe three if they squeeze a little more cap space out in the next week or so and/or demote a player (Provorov, Lyubimov and Konecny are the only waiver exempt players).

 

I do not expect them to do anything like that until/unless the Flyers are actually eliminated from the NHL playoff picture.

 

That said, another thing to consider is that the Phantoms are solidly in the AHL playoff picture (instilling a "winning culture" has been another Hextallism). I'm not sure they want to mess with that just to get a couple of garbage games in the NHL for a couple guys.

 

[pilldoc]

44 minutes ago, radoran said:

That said, another thing to consider is that the Phantoms are solidly in the AHL playoff picture (instilling a "winning culture" has been another Hextallism). I'm not sure they want to mess with that just to get a couple of garbage games in the NHL for a couple guys.

 

been mentioned several times in other threads and by other members...totally agree.  Let the kids learn how to win in the AHL.   

[AJgoal]

53 minutes ago, radoran said:

That said, another thing to consider is that the Phantoms are solidly in the AHL playoff picture (instilling a "winning culture" has been another Hextallism). I'm not sure they want to mess with that just to get a couple of garbage games in the NHL for a couple guys.

 

 

I think this is probably the thought. If there were injuries on the Flyers it would be different, but there's no open spots to fill, so no pressure to break up a club that's winning to prop up one that's not.

[King Knut]

On 3/23/2017 at 0:18 PM, vis said:

 

Sure, but this is probably years away from being the case.  Probably much past the prime years of G and V.  Unless you sign Bishop.

 

I think so.  See above.

 

I wouldn't be suprised if we saw Sandstrom sooner than the point when Jake and G are age inappropriate.  The trick will be how to get him the Lyon's share of Phantoms starts next year (see how I did that?  clever huh?).  Anyway asinine puns aside, in addition to Hart and Sandstrom, the Flyers also have Merrick Madsen in the system who just guided Harvard to the Frozen four.  Being an NCAA guy like Lyons, Madsen is olde than Sandstrom and especially Hart.  

 

Not sure how seriously the organization is taking him considering they have four other potential starters (but let's face it they seem to be leaning on Sandstrom and Hart as the most hopeful prospects), but Madsen is impressing.

 

Anyway, long story short, They have a lot of potential and as I see it with next year being another to just get into postiton to make those final acquisitions to get over the hump, I see no reason not to see what Stolarz and Lyon can do in the NHL (I think they'll both be 24 next year, right?) and let Sandstrom get as much AHL development time as possible.  

 

I don't know whether the goalie will be Mason or Bishop or (god help us) Neuwirth next year but I really hope Hextall and Hakstol will get these kids some minutes so we can see where everyone is.  Stolarz should have been the backup this year. He did fine.  He should suffice for a backup next year easily.  

 

The biggest problem I see is that he won't be waiver exempt because it's taken him so long to get up.

 

[OccamsRazor]

5 hours ago, King Knut said:

 Stolarz should have been the backup this year.

 

 

I think he will be in tandem with the Flyers next year. He is ready. It maybe crazy but maybe Hextall plans to play him and Neuvy.

 

And if that goes south look elsewhere.

[King Knut]

19 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I think he will be in tandem with the Flyers next year. He is ready. It maybe crazy but maybe Hextall plans to play him and Neuvy.

 

And if that goes south look elsewhere.

 

It's the Neuvy part of that I'm not sure about, but yeah totally.

I just don't see signing a guy to be your starter next year and then simply not playing him.  I'm really leaning on the idea Vegas might draft Neuvy from us unless he's just trying to give Mason a chance to put on a show for prospective suitors.  

 

Anyway more to your point, the Flyers literally have 5 guys in their system that could be good to decent NHL goalies.  

Obviously they won't all turn out that way, but they all have potential.  When has that ever happened?  

 

Essentially even if Stolarz does work out, he's going to have at least two guys breathing down his neck in two years at the latest.  Sandstrom could even make a play for the NHL in the 2018-2019 season depending on the AHL minutes he gets next year.  

 

It's a good position to be in.  

 

[radoran]

24 minutes ago, King Knut said:

It's the Neuvy part of that I'm not sure about, but yeah totally.

I just don't see signing a guy to be your starter next year and then simply not playing him.  I'm really leaning on the idea Vegas might draft Neuvy from us unless he's just trying to give Mason a chance to put on a show for prospective suitors. 

 

 I don't think at all they signed Neuvirth with the idea he was going to be the primary starter next year.

 

There are faberge eggs that are less fragile.

 

IMO, he's getting exposed and would be a likely Vegas target (given the history with McPhee).

[King Knut]

21 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

 I don't think at all they signed Neuvirth with the idea he was going to be the primary starter next year.

 

There are faberge eggs that are less fragile.

 

IMO, he's getting exposed and would be a likely Vegas target (given the history with McPhee).

 

That's what my gut is telling me too.  Crazy, but the alternative is crazier.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

 I don't think at all they signed Neuvirth with the idea he was going to be the primary starter next year.

 

There are faberge eggs that are less fragile.

 

IMO, he's getting exposed and would be a likely Vegas target (given the history with McPhee).

 

 

I will admit something is up strange what Ron has up his sleeve!

[AJgoal]

3 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

Essentially even if Stolarz does work out, he's going to have at least two guys breathing down his neck in two years at the latest.  Sandstrom could even make a play for the NHL in the 2018-2019 season depending on the AHL minutes he gets next year.  

 

 

My gut says Sandstrom is nack with Brynas next season, not in the A. And that's fine.

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

My gut says Sandstrom is nack with Brynas next season, not in the A. And that's fine.

 

I thought he and Lindblom had already forgone the Swedish league for next year  Did I make that up?

[AJgoal]

Just now, King Knut said:

 

I thought he and Lindblom had already forgone the Swedish league for next year  Did I make that up?

 

I haven't heard anything about that. Brynas is still in the playoffs, so it would seem odd to talk about the future outside of the league. Sandstrom was a backup all year, he might still want a chance to start, I'm not sure what the situation is with Brynas' starter next season. He is older than I thought, but is still only two years removed from the draft.