Zero Confidence In Holmgren

[King Knut]

I have to assume that Holmgren told Hextall to fire Hakstol and Lappy and Hextall basically said, "You'll have to fire me first."

That was the kind of Loyalty he always displayed on the ice (I'll cite the case of one Brian Propp V Chris Chelios for precedent) and honestly, I can't imagine ANY OTHER SITUATION THAT MERITS THIS.  

 

And if that's the case I get it.  I don't like it, but if Hextall left no choice then there you are.

 

Here's the thing though... We can all chat about who comes in and fantasize and get wide eyed at the possibilities, but at the end of the day I have NO CONFIDENCE in Holmgren to bring in anyone completely outside the organization or anyone with actual vision or knowledge of how to put together a winning team.  

 

I like Hextall as a GM a lot.  He did what this team needed in almost every way... almost... all but one very big way IMHO.  So even though I liked him, if firing him is literally the cost to replace Hakstol and Lappy, then the organization has absolutely no choice.  Those guys HAVE GOT TO GO.

 

But what I'm left with is that Homer will only screw things up from here.  I just don't understand it.  Hextall isn't a stupid guy.  Is his loyalty that outrageously intense?

 

 

 

 

[murraycraven]

@King Knut   you as a poster are one of the most well thought out folks on this board and I usually agree.

 

With this one I think there are a number of factors that you are discounting.    I need to run to take the little one to singing class but will give my rebuttal later tonight or tomorrow.    I do think this move was warranted for a number of reasons.... 

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, murraycraven said:

@King Knut   you as a poster are one of the most well thought out folks on this board and I usually agree.

 

With this one I think there are a number of factors that you are discounting.    I need to run to take the little one to singing class but will give my rebuttal later tonight or tomorrow.    I do think this move was warranted for a number of reasons.... 

 

Can't wait to read it.  But my point was the team is more than likely going  back to more of the disaster that they Hextall had to dig them out of and that's decidedly worse than where things are.  

 

Like I said, if they fire Hakstol and Lappy as soon as they get a new GM (even if they just replace him with Gordon on an interim basis) then this is what had to happen and I support it.  

 

There are some very good coaching options out there besides J.Q. and most of them are likely committed to their current positions until the end of the season.  

 

If however, they don't fire Hakstol or Lappy and trade prospects for over the hill goalies on bad contracts or something like that, then this will go down as one of the dumbest decisions this team has ever made.  

 

We all want goalies and we're all mad at the goalie situation, but you will not feel that way when Phil Myers or Travis Sanheim or Sam Morin are absolutely KILLING it, winning cups for some other team all so Homer could get Bryzgalov 2.0 to crap the bed for the Flyers on a never ending contract.  

 

Hextall got the talent.  His achilles heel was the coach.  I don't know what inspired the sort of loyalty that I assume is motivating his Sitting Bull stance, but that had BETTER be the reason behind this. 

[Lunatic]

15 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Can't wait to read it.  But my point was the team is more than likely going  back to more of the disaster that they Hextall had to dig them out of and that's decidedly worse than where things are.  

 

Like I said, if they fire Hakstol and Lappy as soon as they get a new GM (even if they just replace him with Gordon on an interim basis) then this is what had to happen and I support it.  

 

There are some very good coaching options out there besides J.Q. and most of them are likely committed to their current positions until the end of the season.  

 

If however, they don't fire Hakstol or Lappy and trade prospects for over the hill goalies on bad contracts or something like that, then this will go down as one of the dumbest decisions this team has ever made.  

 

We all want goalies and we're all mad at the goalie situation, but you will not feel that way when Phil Myers or Travis Sanheim or Sam Morin are absolutely KILLING it, winning cups for some other team all so Homer could get Bryzgalov 2.0 to crap the bed for the Flyers on a never ending contract.  

 

Hextall got the talent.  His achilles heel was the coach.  I don't know what inspired the sort of loyalty that I assume is motivating his Sitting Bull stance, but that had BETTER be the reason behind this. 

Really hope that the potential future that you see does not come to pass. Combine the weaknesses of Hextall and the weaknesses of Holmgren and the results is doom. Hopefully this firing is not a precursor to catastrophe!

[OccamsRazor]

47 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I have to assume that Holmgren told Hextall to fire Hakstol and Lappy and Hextall basically said, "You'll have to fire me first."

 

It might have went down like that but it wasn't over Lappy.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

OK, let's take a look at Holmgren for a moment. He's not going to do anything like blowing up the team this year. It's not happening. Even who he hires as the next GM, they aren't going to blow things up during the regular season. Remember when Holmgren took over after Clarke stepped down? Holmgren didn't blow things up right away. He made three deals that I can remember that year - Freddie Meyers for Alexei Zhitnik, Zhitnik then flipped to Atlanta for Braydon Coburn, then Peter Forsberg for Scottie Upshall, Ryan Parent and a 1st.

 

I expect that whoever the next GM is, they're going to take time to assess the talent and the prospects with the Flyers. They aren't going to come in and deal a bunch of prospects and picks for a goaltender or a defenseman or anything like that. The only immediate move/s I expect the new GM to make are to fire the entire coaching staffs in Philadelphia and Lehigh Valley and bring in their own people.

[GreyMan]

the next GM holmgren Clark packer is going to be a yes man to them and it's going to be the same crap that we dealt with with holmgren at the helm about your nonsense useless shortcomings in the season it's a absolute farce

[icehole]

49 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I have to assume that Holmgren told Hextall to fire Hakstol and Lappy and Hextall basically said, "You'll have to fire me first."

That was the kind of Loyalty he always displayed on the ice (I'll cite the case of one Brian Propp V Chris Chelios for precedent) and honestly, I can't imagine ANY OTHER SITUATION THAT MERITS THIS.  

 

And if that's the case I get it.  I don't like it, but if Hextall left no choice then there you are.

 

Here's the thing though... We can all chat about who comes in and fantasize and get wide eyed at the possibilities, but at the end of the day I have NO CONFIDENCE in Holmgren to bring in anyone completely outside the organization or anyone with actual vision or knowledge of how to put together a winning team.  

 

I like Hextall as a GM a lot.  He did what this team needed in almost every way... almost... all but one very big way IMHO.  So even though I liked him, if firing him is literally the cost to replace Hakstol and Lappy, then the organization has absolutely no choice.  Those guys HAVE GOT TO GO.

 

But what I'm left with is that Homer will only screw things up from here.  I just don't understand it.  Hextall isn't a stupid guy.  Is his loyalty that outrageously intense?

 

 

 

 

I was very hot and cold on Hextall.  I liked what he did by moving bad contracts and drafting "skilled" players.  I hated what he did in free agency and I hated how he was unagressive in trying to acquire known talent. In the end, I thought he mostly did it the right way.

 

Did he though?  What does he have to show for it?  Are we overvaluing the prospects we praised Hextall for acquiring?  I like Gost, provorov, TK, Lindblom, and I'll probably like hart, frost, and rubstov.  I'm starting to think they may just be average players though.  Watching what Toronto is putting out there, our players seem like they would be bottom 6 guys at best.  Was it Johnson with the hat trick the other night?  He came into the game with 2 goals but looked like he could be one of the best players if he played for the flyers.

 

Say what you want about Holmgren, and maybe it's just dumb luck or just coincidence, but he had some success doing it his way.  Hextall hasn't had nearly the success that Holmgren had, and I feel like his ceiling would be to get his team as far as Holmgren took them...maybe.  

 

The biggest knock on Holmgren was the way he basically ignored the cap and traded away picks.  Did that directly keep them from being a pretty good hockey team?  Hextall was very patient with his young players, never traded picks for known talent, and always did a great job of managing cap.  Those decisions were a big factor in them not winning a playoff series since 2012.  Its not all his fault but he surely didnt do all of those things you and others think he did to help this team.

 

If they stay the course with a new GM and win a cup with 9, 11, 53, 23, 6, hart, frost, and a new coach, maybe his only fault was hiring Hak.  I dont see that happening though.

 

Dont misunderstand me and think I want Holmgren back to acquiring 35 year old has beens for first round draft picks.  I just want a GM that has an eye for real talent and isn't afraid to move on from his mistakes.

[Lunatic]

BCF16. You present a very reasonable scenario. My only question is what makes you say the the Phantoms coaching staff will be let go? In a way it makes sense, but in reality it represents a major change.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

6 minutes ago, Lunatic said:

BCF16. You present a very reasonable scenario. My only question is what makes you say the the Phantoms coaching staff will be let go? In a way it makes sense, but in reality it represents a major change.

 

I expect that whoever the new GM is, they'll want to use a system that both the parent and farm clubs use so that when they recall players, the players will already know what is expected from them. If you watch what Scott Gordon does and what Dave Hakstol does, it's two complete ends of the spectrum with regards to player development and system. I expect that there will be a uniform process throughout the organization going forward.

[GreyMan]

welcome to the benny hill show with a mix of monty python tossed in as well as GM don cherry.

this move is the silliest move this organization has made in 40 years.

flabbergasted

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

13 minutes ago, GreyMan said:

the next GM holmgren Clark packer is going to be a yes man to them and it's going to be the same crap that we dealt with with holmgren at the helm about your nonsense useless shortcomings in the season it's a absolute farce

 

It's not going to be a yes man that will do whatever Holmgren tells them. Clarke isn't even involved in processes within the organization anymore. The next GM is going to have to balance between competitiveness and continued stocking of the pipeline. In reality, if you take a look at whenever a new GM has been named in Philadelphia, they've done practically nothing their first year. They've basically taken stock of what they have in terms of prospects and players and then make their changes from there.

 

The new GM won't kill off any depth that has been acquired or built. Will there be moves? Of course there will. Besides firing the coach staff (you know that's coming), you can bet that Simmonds will be one of the guys that will be moved and it won't surprise me if they try packaging MacDonald with a prospect or a mid-round draft pick to get that contract off the roster and free up a few bucks.

 

The only real question I see going forward will be goaltending. However, as much as people point to Holmgren for signing Bryzgalov, it was Snider who directed Holmgren to sign him at pretty much any cost. Holmgren didn't want Bryzgalov and Snider even stated that it was him who went full bore on Bryzgalov.

 

As for Holmgren, he is a figurehead as president. He's got a responsibility not to just the on ice product, but he also has a responsibility to the off-ice/business side of things. When you read that Flyers tickets are selling for cheaper than parking and when the arena isn't full, there's a problem. When you read that fans are getting restless and they want results, there's a problem. In most cases, if you take a look at clubs who are rebuilding/retooling, the turn around time is a lot less than five years (unless it's Edmonton and that's just a complete fustercluck).

 

If you want to pin the Hextall firing on someone, Dave Scott of Comcast might be the best place to start. After all, it wasn't long ago that he was caught having a rather animated conversation with Hextall in the press box about the on ice product and when the Chairman and Chief Executive Operator of the franchise is upset about the product on the ice, you can bet there's thin ice there.

 

My advice is take a deep breath. Things are going to be OK and nothing is going to get blown up by a hand picked yes man. 

[GreyMan]

In any case, I am not sure I will be watching

[icehole]

And for the record, I think that maybe Hextall deserved to see if his plan worked or not.  I dont think he would have gotten the team any further than his boss did, but now we'll never know.  The first step should have been to fire the coach.

 

I'm not mad that they fired Hextall though.  I wanted a big change and I got it.  Theres nothing worse than being completely numb to anything this team has done for the past 3 years.  Even if this move was for the worse, at least I feel something again.  At least I can look forward to a new era of flyers hockey good or bad.  Even if it's bad, it cant be any worse than what I felt about the team lately...nothing.

[RonJeremy]

We have some good young talent but, we need a veteran leader for the defense, a penalty killing , faceoff winning third line center and a solid goalie. Management is not waiting for Hart , Vorobyev and Meyers, otherwise Hexy would still be GM. If we shore up those 3 areas we will be a much better team and with a real coach we can contend.

[murraycraven]

1 hour ago, GreyMan said:

welcome to the benny hill show with a mix of monty python tossed in as well as GM don cherry.

this move is the silliest move this organization has made in 40 years.

flabbergasted

 

 

Wow... You must be young bc this is far from being the silliest. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

36 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

We have some good young talent but, we need a veteran leader for the defense, a penalty killing , faceoff winning third line center and a solid goalie. Management is not waiting for Hart , Vorobyev and Meyers, otherwise Hexy would still be GM. If we shore up those 3 areas we will be a much better team and with a real coach we can contend.

 

What the defense needs is good coaching. Gostisbehere and Gudas have been around for at least five seasons. They're veterans now. The issue with the defense has been coaching. Look at Gord Murphy's track record. In 15 seasons, he's only coached two defenses to top 10 finishes. He should have no business handling the defense. That's why if a coach like Quenneville comes in, you can bet he brings in Mike Kitchen and Mike will get the guys straightened out.

 

I think the defense is probably the easiest part to fix. The hardest is going to be the goaltending.

 

It's also not an issue of waiting for Hart, Voroboyev or Meyers. The issue was that Hextall was into year five of his tenure as GM and the team remained mediocre under his watch. Don't get me wrong, I thought Hextall did a great job in terms of restocking the pipeline and restructuring the organization from a contract standpoint and correcting the cap issues. In terms of the big club, though, his player personnel decisions left something to be desired.

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, GreyMan said:

In any case, I am not sure I will be watching

 

No one is forcing you too.... feel free to close the door behind you.....

[murraycraven]

1 hour ago, GreyMan said:

In any case, I am not sure I will be watching

 

 

Then don't... 

 

[ruxpin]

3 hours ago, King Knut said:

Hextall got the talent.  His achilles heel was the coach

 

I'm with you on everything, and as a result you're scaring the crap out of me (things I've thought of, but still...).

 

But it wasn't just the coach.  That was YUGE.

It was complete and utter failure to do anything this summer.  Almost as if he was so busy building a farm system that he forgot he had to ice an NHL team.  It would be one thing if he were still cap-strapped.  He wasn't.    

 

Whether realistic or not, failure to address 3C, a goalie, somebody--anybody--to adequately play on the PK, added of course to not replacing an incredibly inept Lappy and arguably the rest of the staff all with $10M sitting there; whether realistic or not, it gave the appearance that Hextall willingly threw this season and still expected people to pay money for tickets.

 

Our making the playoffs last year was fool's gold.  We had no business being there, and our play once there proved that.   But (again, realistically or not) it raised expectations this year that simply weren't warranted.   And Clarke and Holmgren and the Comcast monkey bean counters gulped that down.  So did the fans.  So when this year was back on the regularly-scheduled curve, this is what ultimately killed Hextall.

 

His flaw was arguably one of two things:

A) unexpected success last year.  He played poker and talked all year that they were a playoff team, but I think that was salesmanship.  He didn't expect it.

B) Failure to at least give the head nod to an attempt to perpetuate that by doing something, anything, to perpetuate that.  Even if he had made minor moves and it failed, it would have been similar to "well, he tried with Mrazek, it just didn't work out."   He didn't even have that cover.  He didn't even give the appearance of having tried.

 

It's probably "C: All of the Above."

 

I'm with you on being fearful of what the morons remaining are going to do to this franchise.

[ruxpin]

If the Flyers do bring in the right GM that can add to/tweak what's here and bring in the right coach, then Hextall becomes the Phillies' Ed Wade.

 

I'm not confident Holmgren could find his own a## unless looking from the inside.

[OccamsRazor]

56 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

If the Flyers do bring in the right GM that can add to/tweak what's here and bring in the right coach, then Hextall becomes the Phillies' Ed Wade.

 

I'm not confident Holmgren could find his own a## unless looking from the inside.

 

Imagine the guy coming in what he would receive to work with...

 

* 9 draft picks...4 in the first 3 rounds.

* 9.8 mill in cap space.

* a pretty decent NHL roster with a solid top 6 (with the exception of a solid starter in net).

* a solid AHL club with some solid young talent.

* a solid stable of prospects still in their minor leagues in college, CHL and the SHL.

 

 

There is a hell of a lot to work with i think.

 

I just want someone who will come in and utilized what has already been gathered and added the finishing touches.

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

I'm with you on everything, and as a result you're scaring the crap out of me (things I've thought of, but still...).

 

But it wasn't just the coach.  That was YUGE.

It was complete and utter failure to do anything this summer.  Almost as if he was so busy building a farm system that he forgot he had to ice an NHL team.  It would be one thing if he were still cap-strapped.  He wasn't.    

 

Whether realistic or not, failure to address 3C, a goalie, somebody--anybody--to adequately play on the PK, added of course to not replacing an incredibly inept Lappy and arguably the rest of the staff all with $10M sitting there; whether realistic or not, it gave the appearance that Hextall willingly threw this season and still expected people to pay money for tickets.

 

Our making the playoffs last year was fool's gold.  We had no business being there, and our play once there proved that.   But (again, realistically or not) it raised expectations this year that simply weren't warranted.   And Clarke and Holmgren and the Comcast monkey bean counters gulped that down.  So did the fans.  So when this year was back on the regularly-scheduled curve, this is what ultimately killed Hextall.

 

His flaw was arguably one of two things:

A) unexpected success last year.  He played poker and talked all year that they were a playoff team, but I think that was salesmanship.  He didn't expect it.

B) Failure to at least give the head nod to an attempt to perpetuate that by doing something, anything, to perpetuate that.  Even if he had made minor moves and it failed, it would have been similar to "well, he tried with Mrazek, it just didn't work out."   He didn't even have that cover.  He didn't even give the appearance of having tried.

 

It's probably "C: All of the Above."

 

I'm with you on being fearful of what the morons remaining are going to do to this franchise.

 

We don't know Hextall didn't try for a goalie this summer.  Why do we assume that? 

He did sign the most touted free agent last summer not named "Tavares".  

Maybe he should have traded for a different goalie, but I don't know why we just assume he didn't even try.  What goalie would you have wanted to trade Sanheim or Myers or Ghost or Provo for? Because I can all but guarantee you that's what teams were asking for. If a team has a good goalie under contract, they're not giving him up and if they are, it'll cost you an arm and a leg and you'd better beware because almost nothing you have is worth a truly good goalie.  

 

Hextall didn't fire Lappy or Hakstol in the off season which is the only way to improve the PK.  He could have signed someone to help, and that might have done some damage, but putting Grabner on this PK would result in either Grabner being out of position all the time or Grabner being benched for being out of the position Hakstol wanted him in.  

 

The coaches are the problem.  

 

But about the only thing we do know about this situation is that it wasn't about Hakstol... or Lappy... or Murphy... or Knoblach... somehow.   It wasn't about solving the actual problem.

 

So we must now assume (I know what they say about Assuming, but Homer's forced us to) it must be about trading prospects for "proven" NHL talent... something that Homer knows all about how to do... TERRIBLY.  

 

I'm sick to my stomach.  We're screwed.  Populate this team with McDavid, Karlsson & Varlamov and it will still suck.  The players aren't the problem.  And now Homer will bring in a GM who will once again mortgage the future for the sake of making it "LOOK" like he's trying to win now.

 

This is asinine and frankly, I may be done with this team.  I'll hold off until I see who they bring in and what moves are made just because I'm going to be realistic about it.  I'm like a smack addict and I don't for a moment believe I can quit cold turkey... but just like Heroine, with Holmgren at the helm, this team is going to put me in my grave.  

 

I actually don't agree with most of what you've said up there btw.  I think they were a good team last year with goalie and coaching problems.  I believe that when they almost took the division lead, it was legit and for real and that they belonged there because quite simply there is a LOT of talent on this team and it's being horribly mismanaged on the ice.  

 

A terrible Penalty kill and absolutely no stability in net due almost exclusively to injuries is what made them a bubble team last year.  

Hakstol's inability to prepare them is what made them an embarrassment in the first round.  

 

The team comes out soft almost every game and continually goes down 1-2 goals at which point they fall apart and go down 4 before you know it.  

 

How is that anything but a coach?  When the ENTIRE TEAM fails to rise to the occasion, how is there anyone to blame but the coach?  

 

This is a dark dark day.  We can only pray for a silver lining, but frankly with Homer's track record, I expect tragedy.  

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

17 minutes ago, King Knut said:

We don't know Hextall didn't try for a goalie this summer.  Why do we assume that? 

 

Yeah and we don't know that he DID try to find one. Why do you assume he DID!?!

[King Knut]

17 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

My advice is take a deep breath. Things are going to be OK and nothing is going to get blown up by a hand picked yes man. 

 

I don't know if you watched the presser or not, but I'm taking a deep breath right now and getting ready to find another Hockey team to worry about.  It's been too much of this for too long.  I'll come back to the Flyers when Comcast finally does away with Homer and Clarke and Lombardi and this whole Good 'Ole Boys Regime that clearly doesn't know what it's doing.  

 

I'll wait to see who they bring in and what he does, but as the title of this thread goes, I have zero confidence in Homer's ability to make such choices.  He's made good ones... he's made bad ones... but the consistent thing is that they almost all seem reactionary.  Like a fart just scared him and he decides to fire and hire someone in the adrenaline rush of the moment without thinking about what's actually good for the team.

 

If you know the movie Moneyball, there's that moment at the end when Jonah Hill's character talks about the minor leaguer who hit the home run and didn't even know it and how Billy Beane just hit a home run as a GM and he doesn't even know it yet...

 

Well Homer is the pitcher who keeps having Home Runs hit off of him and he doesn't even know it yet. 

 

I just can't take the frustration any more.  I'm tired of watching poor choices. I'm not done yet, but I have all but complete confidence that I will be after the trade deadline.