Game 78: Flyers at Hurricanes: 3/30/19 @ 1:30

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Morin was Homer’s pick. His last draft before being fired. 

 

He's talking about Hextall resigning him to such a cheap 3 year deal...which Morin didn't have a leg to stand on...

 

....i know i kill myself...i'll see my way out...

[Howie58]

1 hour ago, brelic said:

 

Morin was Homer’s pick. His last draft before being fired. 

Did he save the best for last?  If he is a serviceable 6/7 dude, $700K is not a bad deal.   I guess Homer was channeling with Pronger.  Jeepers...that really seems ancient.  

[FD19372]

1 hour ago, brelic said:

 

Morin was Homer’s pick. His last draft before being fired. promoted.

Fixed.

[mojo1917]

15 hours ago, Howie58 said:

A quick observation:  The number of posts for this game, and the last few for that matter, are fewer than usual.  I think people are politely checking out.  I get it.  This has to be one of the most disappointing seasons in Flyers history.  And I am having a tough time watching games.  That is sad!

 

I think you're right, I know I don't have a whole lot to say about the team other than, I'm disappointed with this year's results, I know I'm not alone.  

It was a tough season from the jump, goalies, GM, JvR, Coach,by they time they got it together, it was too late. 

There's notthing really new to say, so I think once the season mercifully comes to a close and whatever happens with the coaches happens, then there will be something new to talk about. 

All the horses to beat have been carted off to the alpo plant.

The offseason should be interesting though.

Let's hope they sign or trade for a difference maker, hire a coach with some gravitas,  and the younglings all hit that 3rd year growth spurt that hockey players seem to have.

 

@AJgoalmakes a great point in a different thread about how the Fletcher team is doing making moves and how little confidence they are inspiring. His example is the handling of the SHL prospects...it seems spot on and makes my stomache hurt. 

So I think until the majority of us see something construed as positive why give ourselves belly aches ?

 

[Lindbergh31]

16 hours ago, Howie58 said:

A quick observation:  The number of posts for this game, and the last few for that matter, are fewer than usual.  I think people are politely checking out.  I get it.  This has to be one of the most disappointing seasons in Flyers history.  And I am having a tough time watching games.  That is sad!

Hey Howie, yes it's been one of the most disappointing seasons in Flyers history but we did get a real glimpse of the future with Hart in net (something Flyers fans haven't been able to say since Lindbergh? I know Hextall had a great rookie year but he didn't get better after that!). Going into this season most Flyers fans thought the Flyers would be a bubble playoff team at best and that's what they were. Starting 8 different goalies in a season is mind-boggling enough but a lot of players had down years. At least Hextall had a plan which included rebuilding the farm system, clearing cap space and allowing the prospects to grow probably and not force them to play in the NHL before they should. Hextall's downfall was standing by a coach who shouldn't have been there and not bringing up some players that should have been brought up to the big club. Now we get to see what Fletcher's plan is.

[Howie58]

7 hours ago, Lindbergh31 said:

Hey Howie, yes it's been one of the most disappointing seasons in Flyers history but we did get a real glimpse of the future with Hart in net (something Flyers fans haven't been able to say since Lindbergh? I know Hextall had a great rookie year but he didn't get better after that!). Going into this season most Flyers fans thought the Flyers would be a bubble playoff team at best and that's what they were. Starting 8 different goalies in a season is mind-boggling enough but a lot of players had down years. At least Hextall had a plan which included rebuilding the farm system, clearing cap space and allowing the prospects to grow probably and not force them to play in the NHL before they should. Hextall's downfall was standing by a coach who shouldn't have been there and not bringing up some players that should have been brought up to the big club. Now we get to see what Fletcher's plan is.

Lindbergh:

 

I hope Fletcher rights the ship and adds some excitement.  That said, this season may show that our hopes for draft picks and dump of past-their-prime players was a beginning but not much more.  As someone who grew up with this team and saw it grow from expansion patsy to Stanley Cup winner, I am beyond words...almost numbed at our "product."

[Lindbergh31]

2 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Lindbergh:

 

I hope Fletcher rights the ship and adds some excitement.  That said, this season may show that our hopes for draft picks and dump of past-their-prime players was a beginning but not much more.  As someone who grew up with this team and saw it grow from expansion patsy to Stanley Cup winner, I am beyond words...almost numbed at our "product."

Hey Howie, totally agree I've been a fan since '73 so like you watching this team had exciting moments and frustrating moments but at least in the last 3 years watching the young guys gives hope. They've checked out for the rest of this year, so maybe it is time for a change in leadership, Fletcher should keep an open mind when it comes to possibly trading Giroux or Voracek. Fletcher has to hire the right coach for this team.

[Howie58]

2 hours ago, Lindbergh31 said:

Fletcher should keep an open mind when it comes to possibly trading Giroux or Voracek. Fletcher has to hire the right coach for this team.

 

I agree 100%.

[OccamsRazor]

9 hours ago, Lindbergh31 said:

Fletcher should keep an open mind when it comes to possibly trading Giroux or Voracek.

 

I prefer to keep Giroux unless it's a no brains required blow me away deal.

 

But Jake i have had my fill of the guy. I am ready to turn the page on him so bad. Just Simmer it is time to go.

 

I would love love for Chuck to turn him into the vet D man that the kids could learn from on the ice. 

 

I know he has at times put up points. But he has cost them many many games with his turnovers and his non stop i ain't playing any defense mentality.

 

And then says they choked while he is one of the biggest culprits.

 

Find a take for his services...someone has to need a 2nd line RW.

 

It would serve as another wake up call for the team that would say yeah we will move you we don't care if you're under contract or not.

 

Go get Panarin.

[Lindbergh31]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I prefer to keep Giroux unless it's a no brains required blow me away deal.

 

But Jake i have had my fill of the guy. I am ready to turn the page on him so bad. Just Simmer it is time to go.

 

I would love love for Chuck to turn him into the vet D man that the kids could learn from on the ice. 

 

I know he has at times put up points. But he has cost them many many games with his turnovers and his non stop i ain't playing any defense mentality.

 

And then says they choked while he is one of the biggest culprits.

 

Find a take for his services...someone has to need a 2nd line RW.

 

It would serve as another wake up call for the team that would say yeah we will move you we don't care if you're under contract or not.

 

Go get Panarin.

Maybe Fletcher can trade Voracek to his old team, Minnesota, since they're all screwed up and need a shakeup.

[brelic]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Go get Panarin.

 

This is the big sticking point in trading Jake. 

 

I don't think there's much chance that Panarin comes here. It's been widely reported he's interested in Florida and both New York teams. Fletch needs to put together a great offer, of course, but I don't think you can trade Jake before you know you can replace him.

 

The options are pretty much Panarin and Skinner from the UFA pool. Panarin is more productive than Jake, while Skinner is not (though he will get more goals).

 

The incoming talent is not good enough to replace the lost production, at least not right now. 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, Lindbergh31 said:

Maybe Fletcher can trade Voracek to his old team, Minnesota, since they're all screwed up and need a shakeup.

 

Jake for Jared Spurgeon make it happen...

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

This is the big sticking point in trading Jake. 

 

I don't think there's much chance that Panarin comes here. It's been widely reported he's interested in Florida and both New York teams. Fletch needs to put together a great offer, of course, but I don't think you can trade Jake before you know you can replace him.

 

The options are pretty much Panarin and Skinner from the UFA pool. Panarin is more productive than Jake, while Skinner is not (though he will get more goals).

 

The incoming talent is not good enough to replace the lost production, at least not right now. 

 

 

 

I haven't seen anything about him being interested in Florida.

 

I have seen that Florida was interested in him and Bob but with the guys they have to resign and their limited cap space they might sign one of the two but not both.

 

I have seen he wants to play in a big Hockey market.

 

Not so sure if NY is really a big hockey market...that is maybe a matter of opinion.

 

If the Flyers sign Q I would give them the edge in his services they certainly have the cap space for it.

 

I think Buffalo takes a hard run at resigning Skinner.

 

And I would take Skinner but at a certain term and price he is goal scorer and the Flyers need more of that.

 

I am still worried about his concussion history though.

[brelic]

4 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I haven't seen anything about him being interested in Florida.

 

I have seen that Florida was interested in him and Bob but with the guys they have to resign and their limited cap space they might sign one of the two but not both.

 

I have seen he wants to play in a big Hockey market.

 

Not so sure if NY is really a big hockey market...that is maybe a matter of opinion.

 

If the Flyers sign Q I would give them the edge in his services they certainly have the cap space for it.

 

I think Buffalo takes a hard run at resigning Skinner.

 

And I would take Skinner but at a certain term and price he is goal scorer and the Flyers need more of that.

 

I am still worried about his concussion history though.

 

LA, NY, or FLA.

 

He bought a condo in South Florida, so the Panthers make sense. 

 

https://www.1stohiobattery.com/columbus-blue-jackets-news/2018/06/2374/artemi-panarin-bought-a-south-florida-condo-in-april-which-is-nothing-if-not-timely-and-interesting

 

Honestly, I don't think Q would make an iota of difference to a guy like Panarin. From everything I've read, including alleged preferred destinations on where he wants to go, he sounds to me like a guy who puts more of a premium on lifestyle and location than team or coach. 

 

Just my read on it. Also not the kind of guy I'd want if his heart is elsewhere.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

20 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

LA, NY, or FLA.

 

He bought a condo in South Florida, so the Panthers make sense. 

 

https://www.1stohiobattery.com/columbus-blue-jackets-news/2018/06/2374/artemi-panarin-bought-a-south-florida-condo-in-april-which-is-nothing-if-not-timely-and-interesting

 

Honestly, I don't think Q would make an iota of difference to a guy like Panarin. From everything I've read, including alleged preferred destinations on where he wants to go, he sounds to me like a guy who puts more of a premium on lifestyle and location than team or coach. 

 

Just my read on it. Also not the kind of guy I'd want if his heart is elsewhere.

 

 

 

We'll see money talks.

[brelic]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

We'll see money talks.

 

He'll get roughly the same money wherever he goes. My guess is $10M over 7 years - unless someone does something sneaky to get him 8 years. 

 

My concern with a guy like Panarin is that we'd get 2 years of "prime" Panarin, and 5 years of gradual decline. He'll be 28 at the start of next season, and the contract would take him to 35. I guess it all depends on what the decline looks like. 

 

Of course, I still think Fletch should go hard after him. But, he plays the wrong wing for the weaknesses we're trying to address, and it feels like a contract we'd hate by year 3-4. BUT, he's just like Voracek (plays on his off wing). Panarin is a righty playing LW.

 

 

[radoran]

8 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

He'll get roughly the same money wherever he goes. My guess is $10M over 7 years - unless someone does something sneaky to get him 8 years. 

 

My concern with a guy like Panarin is that we'd get 2 years of "prime" Panarin, and 5 years of gradual decline. He'll be 28 at the start of next season, and the contract would take him to 35. I guess it all depends on what the decline looks like. 

 

Of course, I still think Fletch should go hard after him. But, he plays the wrong wing for the weaknesses we're trying to address, and it feels like a contract we'd hate by year 3-4. BUT, he's just like Voracek (plays on his off wing). Panarin is a righty playing LW.

 

I like Panarin fine, but more from a "fantasy" point of view than "on the ice" point of view. I'm leery of giving 25-30 goal scoring, 75-80 point 28-year-olds seven/eight year, $10M contracts. Just smacks of paying for past production and, as you note, the "decline" years into the mid-30s.

 

Also, not sure Panarin is the "want to win" guy we've been talking about around here. I think he is more of your "lifestyle" choice guy and could very easily see him going the Pavel Bure route, ending his career with four playoff games in nine years in Florida and New York.

 

[OccamsRazor]

20 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

He'll get roughly the same money wherever he goes. My guess is $10M over 7 years - unless someone does something sneaky to get him 8 years. 

 

My concern with a guy like Panarin is that we'd get 2 years of "prime" Panarin, and 5 years of gradual decline. He'll be 28 at the start of next season, and the contract would take him to 35. I guess it all depends on what the decline looks like. 

 

Of course, I still think Fletch should go hard after him. But, he plays the wrong wing for the weaknesses we're trying to address, and it feels like a contract we'd hate by year 3-4. BUT, he's just like Voracek (plays on his off wing). Panarin is a righty playing LW.

 

 

 

Panthers already have Huberdeau as the 1st line LW.

 

Mike Hoffman (NTC) as the 2nd line LW.

 

Only 16 guys under contract and that is including Lunogo and Riemer and only 17.7 mill in cap space.

 

So yeah I am waiting to see this.

[brelic]

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I like Panarin fine, but more from a "fantasy" point of view than "on the ice" point of view. I'm leery of giving 25-30 goal scoring, 75-80 point 28-year-olds seven/eight year, $10M contracts. Just smacks of paying for past production and, as you note, the "decline" years into the mid-30s.

 

Don't we already have one of those that many people want to trade away? Also, Panarin has an almost identical takeaway/giveaway stat line as Voracek in terms of both ratio and absolute numbers. So he's a similar turnover machine, according to the stat lines.

 

 

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

Also, not sure Panarin is the "want to win" guy we've been talking about around here. I think he is more of your "lifestyle" choice guy and could very easily see him going the Pavel Bure route, ending his career with four playoff games in nine years in Florida and New York.

 

 

To me, this is the biggest variable. That's the impression I get from him - that he cares more about lifestyle than the coach or team around him. Wants to be on the "coast", and linked with FLA, NY, and LA. Only FLA has any kind of decent team on the rise.

 

I mean, sure, Columbus is no place I would *choose* to live in a vacuum, but given that the team is building up to something and has a lot of great pieces in place... he would rather follow the payday and coast lifestyle. Not a judgment, just an observation. He is a free agent and and is choosing to explore that. Nothing wrong with that. That being said, Fletch would be wise to pay attention to all these factors when deciding which players to target.

 

But, it could be that there's more to him than that and he's being mis-characterized. I don't know.

 

Either way, it doesn't help the Flyers. He either wants to come here or he doesn't - I'm not sure money will be the deciding factor because it will be similar to other offers. 

 

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

RE: Panarin - I go back and forth with whether or not I think he would be a good signing.

 

My snap judgment is I don't want to pay a Russian big, big, dollars. 

Precisely for the reasons radopin mentions, I question his "want to" and can for sure see a Bure-esque flame out with no wins in the playoffs and lots of Drexel and Temple girls on child support.

I want wins, I want a guy like *gulp* Crosby who could give a **** about scoring and wants beat whomever he's playing.  That dude plays with a chip on his shoulder, against us especially, and every other team that booed him, ever.

 Truly, I want "that guy"...is he out there to be had for money? I don't think "that guy" is, I think that guy has to be traded for, because I think "that guy's" team doesn't let him get to free agency, teams with those guys back up the bank truck and keep "that guy". 

 

I think we have a couple of potential "that guys" on our roster already. I think the much-maligned Nolan Patrick ****** hates to lose, I know Travis Koneckny hates to lose and anyone not wearing his gang's colors. I think as those guys mature and some of these prospects come along I think we'll have a couple of "those guys"...I also think Jay O'Brien is one of those guys, he got hurt in college this year but I fully expect him to blow past guys and  beat guys bigger than him everywhere in Vorhees once he gets a chance. 

 

So to me I think I'd rather see the capital go for making a run at #65, or a block buster deal for Aaron Eckblad-  

I could take or leave Panarin, mostly I think leave.

[OccamsRazor]

39 minutes ago, brelic said:

Don't we already have one of those that many people want to trade away?

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're referring to Jake?

 

And no he is not a goal scorer and no he has never sniffed even 25 goals.

 

And the Flyers need someone like Panarin who can score. They have enough passers.

 

And Fletcher will have a good chunk of change burning a hole in his pocket and if it isn't Panarin it scares me of what else he may do with it and who he would then choose to give that money too....

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

14 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

RE: Panarin - I go back and forth with whether or not I think he would be a good signing.

 

My snap judgment is I don't want to pay a Russian big, big, dollars. 

Precisely for the reasons radopin mentions, I question his "want to" and can for sure see a Bure-esque flame out with no wins in the playoffs and lots of Drexel and Temple girls on child support.

I want wins, I want a guy like *gulp* Crosby who could give a **** about scoring and wants beat whomever he's playing.  That dude plays with a chip on his shoulder against us especially and every other team that booed him ever.

 Truly, I want "that guy"...is he out there to be had for money. I don't think "that guy" is, I think that guy has to be traded for, because I think "that guy's" team doesn't let him get to free agency, teams with those guys back up the bank truck and keep "that guy". 

 

I think we have a couple of potential "that guys" on our roster already. I think the much-maligned Nolan Patrick ****** hates to lose, I know Travis Koneckny hates to lose and anyone not wearing his gang's colors. I think as those guys mature and some of these prospects come along I think we'll have a couple of "those guys"...I also think Jay O'Brien is one of those guys, he got hurt in college this year but I fully expect him to blow past guys and  beat guys bigger than him everywhere in Vorhees once he gets a chance. 

 

So to me I think I'd rather see the capital go for making a run at #65, or a block buster deal for Aaron Eckblad-  

I could take or leave Panarin, mostly I think leave.

 

Good points.

 

And I agree.

 

I am mostly scared of what he will do with that money he has at his disposal if he doesn't sign a goal scorer like Panarin.

 

I would how good the Breadman would look with Gruoux or Patrick as his center.

 

And if he did use the money on Karlsson that to would be put to good use to have a guy like that paired with Provorov.

 

So as long as it is spent on a good selection and not a collection of more misfit toys I can be swayed I guess.

[brelic]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're referring to Jake?

 

And no he is not a goal scorer and no he has never sniffed even 25 goals.

 

And the Flyers need someone like Panarin wo can score. They have enough passers.

 

And Fletcher will have a good chunk of change burning a hole in his pocket and if it isn't Panarin it scares me of what else he may do with it and who he would then choose to give that money too....

 

Yeah, I was referring to Jake. And to be honest, I've been on the trade-Jake wagon too at times this season and in past years.

 

It's less about Panarin and more about Fletch finding the right guy(s) to come in and make this a better team. If Panarin is that guy, and wants to come here, so be it.

[OccamsRazor]

54 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Yeah, I was referring to Jake. And to be honest, I've been on the trade-Jake wagon too at times this season and in past years.

 

It's less about Panarin and more about Fletch finding the right guy(s) to come in and make this a better team. If Panarin is that guy, and wants to come here, so be it.

 

I don't want to give him away for sure.

 

But if you can turn him into something of need like a vet for Ivan and the kids I would be ok with that.

 

Would that create a hole yeah maybe but they might be able to fill some of it by other guys filling in. Maybe even NAK could replace 15 goals of his 23. Hartman could maybe pot 10-15 maybe in a full season.

 

Sure a bunch of question and that is before I look at the free agents.

 

Or if you did acquire the vet D man you could maybe move Hagg for a young RW maybe.

 

A lot of variables to weigh all of course with the intentions of making them better for the foreseeable future.

[brelic]

15 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Would that create a hole yeah maybe but they might be able to fill some of it by other guys filling in. Maybe even NAK could replace 15 goals of his 23. Hartman could maybe pot 10-15 maybe in a full season.

 

 

I wouldn't look to those guys to replace Jake's goals. They're 4th liners. 

 

Hartman is a 'replacement' for Simmer's goals, even though he probably won't fully replace the production, so he doesn't even eat into replacing Jake's production.

 

NAK? Meh, he's ok, and I would bet a lot of money on him never scoring 15 at the NHL level. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised, but it just doesn't look that way. 

 

The guys I *would* hope can find another gear and replace the lost production are Patrick and Lindblom. There's a much bigger chance they can score an extra 20 goals between them, simply because they are better players, have more track record, get a lot more ice time, and are playing with top 6 guys. 

 

But as you say, lots of question marks and we're really just guessing at this point.