orange_crush Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 No GM that is sober will take Teabagger, we can thank senial Snider.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 There is little chance of a buyout period in the new cba.Whether an official "buyout," there has been a lot of talk about the 35+ rule not working as intended and discussions to alter it. it would not surprise me to see some sort of "contract relief" if not allowing for an actual "buyout."This may, of course, not affect Bryzgalov at all. But, if given the opportunity for a buyout, they may very well for Bryzgalov, as the cap hit (aside from the two years you note) is relatively reasonable and they can at least use Pronger's space on LTIR.But, yes, I don't see them bailing on this deal after Y1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGreatGazoo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Whether an official "buyout," there has been a lot of talk about the 35+ rule not working as intended and discussions to alter it. it would not surprise me to see some sort of "contract relief" if not allowing for an actual "buyoutWe all need to pray for this. It would remove a HUGE issue, and allow these team some flexability they currently do not have. Panaccio was on Philly Daily News Live last night, and he said he things Pronger will attempt a comeback next season. But he also said that he has not improved at all in over 2 months, and may never play again.I understand the intent of the over 35 rule, but think it was a bad way to go about it. There are other ways to prevent salary cap circumvention, without penalzing older players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) The guy is a workhorse and granted has had more bad ones that I thought he would but there is no discounting what he is capable of.sure there is. there have been a lot of goalies over the years that had 2 or 3 good seasons followed by crap. and don't forget each of the playoff appearances in PHX looked exactly like what we're seeing right now.Plus signing him allowed the Flyers to build our nucleus for the future with Jake, Couts, Schenn, Simmonds, the ability to sign Jagr and get rid of Richards and Carter. So if anything we should be grateful for his signing as he allowed the team to change the whole makeover of the club. how are those related in any way? what about signing bryzgalov allowed us to trade for voracek, schenn, or simmonds? beyond the fact they are just completely unrelated, they were traded for before bryzgalov was signed. and you think jagr came to philly because of bryzgalov??why would anything be different with any of the above had the flyers, say, gone with bob this season? or brought someone else in?edit:I still think we as fans are overreacting.the highest paid goalie in the league is currently 42nd in sv%. and he's a flyer for 8 more years. overreacting? Edited January 17, 2012 by aziz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDailey Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 aziz, what you saidhighest paid#42 in save %Trying to find his inner childEver see the Russian SCI FI move called Solaristhe original not the remake with George ClooneyBryz is Solaris, a weird saga made from his mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The "highest paid" thing is a typical blatant spin canard based on his "actual salary" which is irrelevant for talking about effect on the club.Bryz's cap number is the only fair way to compare, and by that accurate standard he is not the highest paid goalie in the league.For the record, however, he's still in the Top 10 of goalies paid and still 42nd in SV% (with nine goalies with less than 20 starts ahead of him).how are (Crater/Richards trades and Bryzgalov signing) related in any way? what about signing bryzgalov allowed us to trade for voracek, schenn, or simmonds? beyond the fact they are just completely unrelated, they were traded for before bryzgalov was signed. and you think jagr came to philly because of bryzgalov??Crater was traded on June 23.Richards was traded on June 23.Bryzgalov was signed on June 23.Again, you are technically correct that they were traded before Bryzgalov was signed.An hour before Bryzgalov was signed.Bryzgalov's play has been bad enough to not need to resort of spin and hyperbole to get the point across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The "highest paid" thing is a typical blatant spin canard based on his "actual salary" which is irrelevant for talking about effect on the club.ilya bryzgalov deposits a larger check every two weeks than any other goaltender in the world. sure, the cap hit is the only thing that has any impact on the team, but the point remains the guy with the 42nd best numbers is currently the 1st most compensated. that isn't spin. bryzgalov can buy 10 bugatti veyrons for the work he is doing this season. sales tax not included.and you're right, i forgot how close the richards/carter deals were to the bryzgalov signing. the point remains that bryzgalov did not in any way facilitate those trades. in fact, the opposite is closer to the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 ilya bryzgalov deposits a larger check every two weeks than any other goaltender in the world. sure, the cap hit is the only thing that has any impact on the team, but the point remains the guy with the 42nd best numbers is currently the 1st most compensated. that isn't spin. bryzgalov can buy 10 bugatti veyrons for the work he is doing this season. sales tax not included.and you're right, i forgot how close the richards/carter deals were to the bryzgalov signing. the point remains that bryzgalov did not in any way facilitate those trades. in fact, the opposite is closer to the truth.Then we should be happy in Year Eight ($2.5M) and Nine ($1.5M) when he's making much less.Of course, if by some Act of God Bryz is still here in Y8 and Y9, I guarandamntee people will then be talking about his "$5.6M salary" just like I expect people to complain about Briere's "$6,5M salary" in 13-14 ($3M) and 14-15 ($2M) - and probably many of the same people who wailed about Briere making "$10M" in 07-08.Contracts are structured like that to give players a lot of money up front and make it more difficult for other teams to match while lowering the overall cap hit (and, IMO, giving Bryz an "out" after Y4-6 to go back to Russia).This isn't just a "cap" era thing, the Flyers did the same thing when Chris Gratton was the Highest Paid Hockey Player In The World for one season.It's an accounting trick and negotiating ploy. If you want to hang your hat on it, fine. It's just a weak peg fairly low on the scale when talking about the abject disaster in the Flyers' crease at the moment.WRT the trades, we don't need to redefine redundant at this point, but it is true that while BOTH deals didn't "need" to be done to sign Bryz, the Crater/Richards deals were absolutely done to create the room to sign Bryzgalov. "Facilitate"? Probably not. Inextricably entwined? Absolutely.There were other reasons they dealt both... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 and you're right, i forgot how close the richards/carter deals were to the bryzgalov signing. the point remains that bryzgalov did not in any way facilitate those trades. in fact, the opposite is closer to the truth.I'm not sure what you mean by that ("the opposite") but I'm pretty sure that I've read that Homer knew he had to trade Carter in order to sign Bryzgalov. I would say the Carter trade was forced. The Richards trade not so much, but I think they really liked the return. I'm sure Homer's phone was ringing with inquiries when it started to look likely that Bryzgalov would be signed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinorama Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I still think we as fans are overreacting.negative.when you get paid what he is getting paid, it is your job to instill confidence in those playing in front of you,management and the fans. Plus, the guy isn't a rookie, he's 31 and playing in the final contract of his career. The Flyers signed a sure thing and he's been everything but. I don't want to be hard on the guy and I have very high hopes that now that we are in the second half of the season, and the 24/7 nonsense is behind him that he can get back to just playing hockey and not worrying so much about the spotlight. Myabe the All Star break will allow him to collect himself mentally and get into the much needed groove this team needs at the most important time of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) It's an accounting trick and negotiating ploy. If you want to hang your hat on it, fine. It's just a weak peg fairly low on the scale when talking about the abject disaster in the Flyers' crease at the moment.it's also real money an individual is making at the moment to provide a service. i understand how it works and why it is what it is just fine, thank you. if i want to be annoyed at the box the flyers have put themselves in for 9 years, i'll bitch and moan about bryzgalov's cap hit. in year 8 and 9, too. if i want to be annoyed at the individual who is showing up for work every morning to do a job and doing it amazingly poorly, i'll pull out the 2nd biggest paycheck in the league point of view. both are perfectly valid angles to look at the situation, at the moment. the reality that bryzgalov is living the most comfortable life any goalie in the league is living at the moment bothers me, given the asshat he is in net. he walks into the lockerroom every day, looks around and smiles knowing his paycheck is (way) bigger than everyone elses. bob looks up at bryzgalov and thinks, "man, that кусок дерьма makes 10 times what i do."it also bothers me that the flyers have blocked off $5.65mil of their cap space for an ineffectual goaltender for the next 8 seasons, but they are two seperate kinds of annoyed. Edited January 17, 2012 by aziz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 bob looks up at bryzgalov and thinks, "man, that кусок дерьма makes 10 times what i do."this. is. awesome.not, "shot in the face 51 million times" awesome, but awesome none the less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 bob looks up at bryzgalov and thinks, "man, that кусок дерьма makes 10 times what i do."If Bob thinks that, then Bob's not the goalie you think he is. A second-year-guy looking at a 10-year vet who's a former Vezina nominee and whining about salary? Get him out of my locker room.Is Matt Read grumbling about making 20% of Jagr? He's got more goals and just five points less. Is Gustaffsson concerned that Pronger is making almost nine times his salary and not even playing?If I'm Bob, I'm looking at Bryz and thinking "in two years, I'll be making what he's making". That's how a professional looks at it.it also bothers me that the flyers have blocked off $5.65mil of their cap space for an ineffectual goaltender for the next 8 seasons, but they are two seperate kinds of annoyed.This annoys me a heckuva lot more than Ed Snider pissing away $10M of Comcast's money this season. They could be paying Bryz $1 and he'd still have a $5.65M cap hit, which is the only thing that affects what the team can do.As I said, feel free to hang your hat on that peg if you'd like. For me, there are much better points to make that don't result in this side discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 i appologize for creating a side discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 and don't forget each of the playoff appearances in PHX looked exactly like what we're seeing right now.which is exactly why the "But he's a solid goaltender, it's just an adjustment period now" fantasy is over. Also the "He'll snap out of it. His reg season #s are just fine, excellent even."I bought into that hype for awhile too because I needed to. As a Flyers' fan I didn't want to admit what I knew all along - Bryzgalov's PO numbers are "the real" Bryzgalov when you take him out of Phoenix and put him in Philly (or Toronto or Montreal or Detroit or NYC or Pittsburgh or Edmonton or Calgary or Chicago or Boston) - any town where the NHL is a big deal. In Philly it's a distant 3rd or 4th on the sports radar of the average citizen but compared to Phoenix it's the SCF every night.During the season in Phoenix almost nobody gives a flying fk what the Coyotes are doing. Once the POs start the attention grows and Bryzgalov fails. Coming out of the desert to Philadelphia Bryzgalov must feel like "Oh no it's like the POs all year long here."Yes it is Sparky. And you suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 i appologize for creating a side discussion.You didn't. I did.And will. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 which is exactly why the "But he's a solid goaltender, it's just an adjustment period now" fantasy is over. Also the "He'll snap out of it. His reg season #s are just fine, excellent even."I bought into that hype for awhile too because I needed to. As a Flyers' fan I didn't want to admit what I knew all along - Bryzgalov's PO numbers are "the real" Bryzgalov when you take him out of Phoenix and put him in Philly (or Toronto or Montreal or Detroit or NYC or Pittsburgh or Edmonton or Calgary or Chicago or Boston) - any town where the NHL is a big deal. In Philly it's a distant 3rd or 4th on the sports radar of the average citizen but compared to Phoenix it's the SCF every night.During the season in Phoenix almost nobody gives a flying fk what the Coyotes are doing. Once the POs start the attention grows and Bryzgalov fails. Coming out of the desert to Philadelphia Bryzgalov must feel like "Oh no it's like the POs all year long here."Well, yes, in the last two playoffs he's had some problems - against Detroit, playing with Phoenix. Last season Detroit was the #3 seed with home ice. They swept the Coyotes 4-0. The year before, Phoenix took the Red Wings to seven games as a 4 seed. They lost Game 7 6-1 - giving up FIFTY shots. At home.I just don't think looking at Phoenix playing it's first playoffs in... ever? Against Detroit. Twice. Is the best measure.Because if you look at previous seasons - and he does have previous playoff experience beyond Phoenix - the situation gets a little more complicated.In 06-07 3-1, 2.25/.922 - Anaheim won the Stanley CupIn 05-06 6-4 1.46/.944 - posted a shutout to send Calgary home and then two shutouts to open a four game sweep of Colorado.Is Bryz capable of putting up numbers in the playoffs?Yep.Will he? We'll clearly find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I just don't think looking at Phoenix playing it's first playoffs in... ever? Against Detroit. Twice. Is the best measure.but did you see the goals against? brutal. yes, the chips were against him winning either series due to the team in front of him, but the actual goals he allowed were, well, brutal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 @radoran - fwiw, Bryzgalov also played well in the 2010 Olympics where he played in relief of Nabakov, who sucked. This playing behind a Russian team that gave new meaning to the words, "Defenes? We don't need no stinkin' defense!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 but did you see the goals against? brutal. yes, the chips were against him winning either series due to the team in front of him, but the actual goals he allowed were, well, brutal.I'll readily confess to not seeing all 41 goals against for Phoenix in their last two playoffs with Detroit. Again, this is only to point out that "Bryz can't play in the playoffs" isn't the cut-and-dry proposition some people might like it to be.Simply repeating "conventional wisdom" doesn't make it true.Two years ago he actually won three games, holding the Wings to two goals in all of them. In the last three losses the Coyotes managed two entire goals. Total.Was Bryzgalov the reason the Coyotes lost those games? Take away the 50-shot, 44-save performance in the 6-1 Game 7 loss, and he put up a .912 SV%. Even with Game 7, it's .906. A .906 SV% in a losing four game sweep really isn't all that shabby. We ran a guy out of town for putting up 1.85/.936 in a five game loss... (OK, fine, technically we ran him out of town after the next season's 2.14/.909 playoff).And it doesn't at all invalidate Bryz's playoff numbers with Anaheim.I will say that if the Flyers give up 39-34-31-36 shots a game against a 1-5 seed, as Phoenix did last year against DET, they're not going to win many series even if Bob's in goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Again, this is only to point out that "Bryz can't play in the playoffs" isn't the cut-and-dry proposition some people might like it to be....And it doesn't at all invalidate Bryz's playoff numbers with Anaheim.and i agree with that. it goes back to what i've said before: bryzgalov, when playing at the "top" of his game, can be successfull behind the right defense. anaheim had the right defense, they made JSG look amazing, too. PHX is an interesting illustration of what i'm saying. they play(ed? haven't watched much of them this season) a tight and technical defensive system. a team comes in to play them in a regular season game having played 5 different teams in 8 nights, and PHX does a great job of keeping things out of the middle and protecting bryzgalov in the ways he needs to be protected. then come the playoffs when an opposing coach can sit down and study tape for several days before the series begins, and the lack of talent behind the technical system is revealed. the opposing coach with talented posession forwards (read: zetterberg and datsyuk) can pick them apart. suddenly PHX can't influence play in their own end and bryzgalov starts seeing pucks through the slot and gets eaten alive. there is nuance to all of it and very little is cut and dry, i agree, the above is itself oversimplified. the trends fit, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedZep Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re, Ladislav Scurko: I believe the officials would call Flyers' games a wee bit more carefully if he were on the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 and i agree with that. it goes back to what i've said before: bryzgalov, when playing at the "top" of his game, can be successfull behind the right defense. anaheim had the right defense, they made JSG look amazing, too. PHX is an interesting illustration of what i'm saying. they play(ed? haven't watched much of them this season) a tight and technical defensive system. a team comes in to play them in a regular season game having played 5 different teams in 8 nights, and PHX does a great job of keeping things out of the middle and protecting bryzgalov in the ways he needs to be protected. then come the playoffs when an opposing coach can sit down and study tape for several days before the series begins, and the lack of talent behind the technical system is revealed. the opposing coach with talented posession forwards (read: zetterberg and datsyuk) can pick them apart. suddenly PHX can't influence play in their own end and bryzgalov starts seeing pucks through the slot and gets eaten alive.there is nuance to all of it and very little is cut and dry, i agree, the above is itself oversimplified. the trends fit, though.Absolutely agree. Which is why they need to play better team defense (and losing your captain/#1 D for the season certainly doesn't help).It's not "making apologies" for Bryz. It's saying how to best use the asset you have (unfortunately) acquired.Given lemons, make lemonade. And add vodka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) lol. well said.the only issue is have with it is to play that kind of defense requires a de-emphasis on the transition offense, which jagr/giroux/read/etc thrive on. i'm not entirely sure how successful the team can be putting pucks in the other net if they put too much focus on keeping them out of their own. there's an amount of pick your poison involved.(which isn't so much the case if bob is given the keys the rest of the way)(just saying)(imo)(damnit, we signed bryzgalov for 9 years) Edited January 18, 2012 by aziz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (damnit, we signed bryzgalov for 9 years)Vodka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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