More Proof Hayes isn't Worth the Contract

[FD19372]

Hayes is worth a contract a hell of a lot more right now than a captain who takes a week off, and a floating, lazy overpaid bum like Voracek and one dimensional (if that), JVR. 

[flyercanuck]

8 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

In other words like Giroux...

 

 

 

 

I guess. But at least Giroux got paid for what he did here. He put up 85 last year and 102 the year before. Hayes got paid for being a decent player who was also benched on both teams he played for...and even said he wouldn't sign in Philly unless they overpaid him. Which they did. For too long.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

But at least Giroux got paid for what he did here. 

 

That makes no sense.

 

So if you leave your job and go work somewhere else they would be paying for how you performed at your previous job?

 

Wait I'll answer for you. No.

 

They are paying you for what hopefully do for them after they hire you.

 

So why are sports any different. They're not.

 

That is just something folks say because they can.

[CoachX]

21 hours ago, Podein25 said:

 

Pavel Brendl

 

Billy Tibbetts 

[radoran]

 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

So if you leave your job and go work somewhere else they would be paying for how you performed at your previous job?

 

Yes, they do. Your quantity of experience at doing the job is usually directly related to your compensation.

 

But, again, sports isn't like the average job. There are all sorts of factors that go into deciding what to pay a guy.

 

The Flyers "needed" a #2 center. Hayes was the best UFA #2 center available last year. So the Flyers paid to get that guy - and gave him a seven year contract.

 

It very well could be that the contract is rational value by the end of the term - presuming that barely 20/50 guys with "intangibles" are worth $7M in the league. And that that situation doesn't lead to another lockout and the requisite buyouts...

 

As it stands, Hayes is near the bottom in points for all forwards making $6.5M or more and last I checked he had the worst +/- of any of them. And the other guy with four shorthanded goals this season is making less than $3M playing for Ottawa*.

 

And the Flyers remain the definitely a bubble playoff team they've been for seven years.

 

 

 

* He had 48 points last season and is going to be an RFA with arbitration rights. Anyone think Chris Tierney is a $7M player?

[CoachX]

Hayes is taking care of his , thats got to be worth a mil right there

[OccamsRazor]

40 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

 

Yes, they do. Your quantity of experience at doing the job is usually directly related to your compensation.

 

But, again, sports isn't like the average job. There are all sorts of factors that go into deciding what to pay a guy.

 

The Flyers "needed" a #2 center. Hayes was the best UFA #2 center available last year. So the Flyers paid to get that guy - and gave him a seven year contract.

 

It very well could be that the contract is rational value by the end of the term - presuming that barely 20/50 guys with "intangibles" are worth $7M in the league. And that that situation doesn't lead to another lockout and the requisite buyouts...

 

As it stands, Hayes is near the bottom in points for all forwards making $6.5M or more and last I checked he had the worst +/- of any of them. And the other guy with four shorthanded goals this season is making less than $3M playing for Ottawa*.

 

And the Flyers remain the definitely a bubble playoff team they've been for seven years.

 

 

 

* He had 48 points last season and is going to be an RFA with arbitration rights. Anyone think Chris Tierney is a $7M player?

 

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[CoachX]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think its both. If you see a guy who is available and has a reputation for past success, you'll want him. But you want him because you anticipate the same success for your company. If you dont think he is capable of duplicating that success, you pass him by

[LegionOfDoom]

This has been my stance/thoughts on Hayes in past discussions and I still stand by them....

 

 

I will say this about Hayes, in watching him play, he is looking like he is living up to his contract. He is falling into Couturier level of knowing how to hold on and maintain control of the puck, he was able to score a nice behind the net wrap around goal and is able to 9 out of 10 times skate with the puck out of the defensive zone and if trapped, he seems to be able to put it out of harms way.

His determination defensively is reminiscent of Coots skill level as well. I would trust him with the puck on his stick in the same company as Claude and Sean. Lindblom is getting there as well.

Hayes also can be another face off option as well. He is more versatile then Duchene. He has a LeClaire'ish way of putting his backside to the puck to protect it as he's going into the high danger zones. Kenny Loggins would be proud.
October 22, 2019

========================

Where I'm looking at it, is through which tool is better for our team. I would of loved to of won on Duchene because of his scoring.

But in regards to what our team could use more of is another Coots type player. Hayes is a big body and almost uses it as a shadow of Jagr in how he is able to hold on to the puck. I think Hayes is playing better offensively in the O and B. He seems to be the better part for our team than Duchene would of been. Would Duchene have been in AV's doghouse by now? I don't know. But Hayes is playing the right way and has the tools to seem to be an effective Playoff player in a deep run 7 game series. I know it's premature but Playoff Primeau's shadow seems to be on the ice when I see Hayes skating up and down. I don't recall what it was a goal, a chip in, and assist but Hayes was gassed and he was able to expend a bit more energy to complete his play in one of the previous games where he came back on the bench and I was impressed by his perseverance in going the extra mile. I think he scored a goal or created a goal scoring opportunity.

Duchene might end up scoring more goals or points than Hayes. But if someone asked me to trade Coots for a higher goal/point scorer, I would pass because Coots is able to do more things than just wrack up the points.
October 26, 2019

====================================

I believe it was Bill Clement that mentioned Kevin Hayes game reminding him of Kieth Primeau.. I thought I saw his shadow out there as well..
October 26, 2019

[LegionOfDoom]

I don't know how that Sea Sloth, Sashsquatch, of a Sigmund the SeaMonster does it but Kevin Hayes can Scoot! It's like he puts everyone in the opposition on Slow MODE and stays in front of them to score Shorties and breakaways....Bravo! Good Sir.....Bravo.

Edited February 7, 2020 by LegionOfDoom

[flyercanuck]

23 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

That makes no sense.

 

So if you leave your job and go work somewhere else they would be paying for how you performed at your previous job?

 

Wait I'll answer for you. No.

 

They are paying you for what hopefully do for them after they hire you.

 

So why are sports any different. They're not.

 

That is just something folks say because they can.

 

Giroux signed this contract  after his 86 point season in Philly. Or what he did there. During this contract he put up the 85 and 102 point seasons I mentioned. In Philly. So Giroux has been paid at least for what he's done in Philly.

 

Thankfully there's only 2 years left on it because the wheels are falling off. 

 

 

[Podein25]

19 hours ago, LegionOfDoom said:

Kevin Hayes game reminding him of Kieth Primeau..

 

It's not a bad comparison. Similar hands for sure

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

 

It's not a bad comparison. Similar hands for sure

i was thinking this same thing a few games ago. I was too afraid to post it, though. Flyer fans can be a tough bunch

[radoran]

2 hours ago, Podein25 said:

 

It's not a bad comparison. Similar hands for sure

 

It's honestly a terrible comparison... Hands? Fine. Production? Not even close.

 

At 27, Primeau had a 30 goal season under his belt and had just come off three consecutive 25+ goal seasons including a 26/63 season. He then put up 30/62. Held out, was traded to Philadelphia, 17 points in 23 games and then a 34/73 season.

 

Hayes hasn't even come close to that.

 

55 minutes ago, CoachX said:

i was thinking this same thing a few games ago. I was too afraid to post it, though. Flyer fans can be a tough bunch

 

I started this post several times and just threw it away for just that reason.

 

There's no doubt eye test is good for Hayes. He plays hard. Has been a benefit to a bubble playoff hockey team. Seems like a good bench/locker room guy.

 

The numbers simply aren't great for him. He's 43rd in points per game of the 52 forwards making $6.5M or more. He's 48th in +/-. His Corsi/Fenwick are comparable to James van Riemsdyk, with JVR's slightly inflated by more OZ starts. Hayes' production hovers right around JVR's, and I don't think anyone here is happy with JVR's production for salary.

 

The other guy with 4 shorthanders this season makes less than $4M and is arbitration eligible one year removed from a 48 point season. Anyone think Ottawa's Chris Tierney is worth $7M or is the next Keith Primeau? Is Anders Lee playing up to his contract on the Island? His numbers, cap hit, and salary are virtually the same as Hayes (except Lee is +7 to Hayes' -11).

 

In the end, we want Hayes to be a good contract. If a marginal 20/50 guy with intangibles is worth $7M in this league, then fine. It's a good contract. And there are guys making $6.5M+ playing worse - Kessel, Benn, Skinner...

 

But he's not Keith Primeau. He's not going to suddenly be Keith Primeau. And I'm not even a huge Keith Primeau fan.

[Podein25]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

It's honestly a terrible comparison... Hands? Fine. Production? Not even close.

 

Once again, I stand humbly corrected. 

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

Once again, I stand humbly corrected. 

 

I went back and forth on posting... Sorry if it came across too strong.

Edited February 8, 2020 by radoran

[Podein25]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

I went back and forth on posting... Sorry if it came across too strong.

 

Lol, what do you take me for, some delicate snowflake?! I'm pretty much from Flin Flon, I open bottle caps with my eye sockets.

 

All good.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

 

 I open bottle caps with my eye sockets.

 

 

 

 Who doesn't? 

[Podein25]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Who doesn't? 

 

Lol, the city folk I know don't. They're very soft. Especially on the ice. 

[LegionOfDoom]

I think to clarify the Keith Primeau comparisons were more akin to how at times Hayes can take over a game, when he sets his mind to.

That same feeling when Primeau took over the 285th overtime period and said forget these double anchovy mushroom pizzas the staff is giving us through I.V. I'm gonna end this now with an overtime goal. 

 

It's not so much his total point production per game per say.

Just when he dawns his Colored Engineer Cap on....and scoots the caboose............All Aboard! and the Flyers Trolly kicks in.

[jammer2]

I know 7 mill looks and sounds like a lot, but in just a few years it will look like a bargain....even if he regresses a bit, he will always play with fire and enthusiasm. Should always be respectable on the pk..that is huge in today's NHL. Special teams make or break you. Guess what I'm trying  to say is the price for a solid 3rd line C who is a pk ace will exceed 7 mill before this deal is half done. Remember, just a decade ago superstars were signing for 5 mill...now its 11 or so. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by jammer2

[radoran]

14 hours ago, jammer2 said:

I know 7 mill looks and sounds like a lot, but in just a few years it will look like a bargain.

 

This is more than likely true.

 

14 hours ago, jammer2 said:

Guess what I'm trying  to say is the price for a solid 3rd line C who is a pk ace will exceed 7 mill before this deal is half done.

 

Which, when you think about it, is terrifying. I'm just waiting for the next lockout at this point...

[flyercanuck]

15 hours ago, jammer2 said:

I know 7 mill looks and sounds like a lot, but in just a few years it will look like a bargain....even if he regresses a bit, he will always play with fire and enthusiasm. Should always be respectable on the pk..that is huge in today's NHL. Special teams make or break you. Guess what I'm trying  to say is the price for a solid 3rd line C who is a pk ace will exceed 7 mill before this deal is half done. Remember, just a decade ago superstars were signing for 5 mill...now its 11 or so. 

 

 Just to be clear...This is the same guy we're talking about that was benched by his last 2 teams and has played half a season for the Flyers, right? 

 

 I mean the Jets got 20 games PLUS a handful of playoff games that cost them a 1st and Brendan Lemieux of his fire and enthusiasm before they decided they'd had enough.

 

 The guy has been fine as a player for the Flyers...FOR HALF A SEASON. More than a few of you guys who are ready to hand him the C were patting each other on the back when we signed Bryz. We're STILL paying that idiot who was brimming with fire and enthusiasm to NOT play. There's 6 1/2 years to go on that $7 mil a year caphit. Sure, $7 mil won't seem as much in a few years...when Hayes is Girouxs age. Hows his contract looking these days?

 

 Almost a decade ago Jeff  Carter and Mike Richards signed for $5 million a year. Not sure anyone called them superstars. And if Carter missed those two breakaways like Hayes did last game there'd be pages of posts calling for his head. Hayes has hit 20 goals once in his career. Carter at Hayes age already had a 40+ , 2-30+ and a 29 and 23 goals seasons.

 

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

Which, when you think about it, is terrifying. I'm just waiting for the next lockout at this point...

 

 It's almost as if management is praying for it to happen so they can get out of yet more idiotic contracts, isn't it?

 

 Then go on another signing frenzy.

[radoran]

1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

It's almost as if management is praying for it to happen so they can get out of yet more idiotic contracts, isn't it?

 

 Then go on another signing frenzy.

 

They absolutely must have the option to buyout contracts to spend millions of dollars to pay a player not to play for them in the name of fiscal responsibility.

 

Or something.